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How is 137mph achieved on some classic lines on the continent but not Britain?

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RichW1

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Can someone of knowledge please tell me (and I have searched without a technical explanation around) as to why 137mph is allowed on some German, French, Italian and Portugese 'classic' lines with conventional signalling I assume? and we are limited to 125mph?

(I have read about flashing greens etc near peterborough, so did they just allow something similar in their countries where we just didn't because HMRI at the time were just odd or what's the story? Essentially, I thought they had colour aspect signals the same as us on these 137mph stretches?
 
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Wyvern

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Longer signalling distance to allow for braking?
 

Railsigns

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If they're running at that sort of speed, they must be using an overlaid cab signalling system like the German LZB. I'm quite sure they won't be relying solely on reading the indications shown by lineside signals!
 

GB

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Can someone of knowledge please tell me (and I have searched without a technical explanation around) as to why 137mph is allowed on some German, French, Italian and Portugese 'classic' lines with conventional signalling I assume? and we are limited to 125mph?

125mph was deemed by British authorities to be the maximum speed a single driver could be reasonably expected to view line side signals and take the appropriate action where required.

I know sod all about the railways in other countries but I'd be very suprised if they are operating at the kinds of speeds mentioned in the OP without any kind of enhancement?!?
 

RichW1

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With reference to the above posts the 'enhancement' part is what I'm really trying to ascertain because the TGV for example on the Tours to Bordeaux route on Atlantique is allowed to 137mph as is Lisbon to Porto and Berlin - Hamburg section and well as Munich to the Swiss border in the near future to my knowledge and that's without ERTMS. So, if you don't have ERTMS, you need some enhanced system other than lights right? If we could do the same it would be over much longer sections than Germany or France's classic network as the junction layouts and approaches are aweful like I say, mitigating any potential gains over comparable distances in Britain.

I'm still confused!! :s
 

gordonthemoron

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Berlin-Hamburg is an upgraded line with a top speed of either 200km/h or 230km/h

Munich-Lindau (Swiss Border) currently takes 2:13 and is at an average speed of 81km/h. This line is due to be electrified and journey times reduced, but not by much. There is currently no work being done by DB on electrification or line speed improvements on this line.
 
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125mph was deemed by British authorities to be the maximum speed a single driver could be reasonably expected to view line side signals and take the appropriate action where required.

I know sod all about the railways in other countries but I'd be very suprised if they are operating at the kinds of speeds mentioned in the OP without any kind of enhancement?!?

There was some reports (according to the railway magazine) of HSTs speeding on the Western Region, one or two drivers reportedly joining the 140mph club.

In the end they apparently had to limiters on them to stop them going above 125, though it was apparently still possible on some parts of the route. I dont know if the bit about speed cameras was a wind up though.:)
 

Old Timer

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Can someone of knowledge please tell me (and I have searched without a technical explanation around) as to why 137mph is allowed on some German, French, Italian and Portugese 'classic' lines with conventional signalling I assume? and we are limited to 125mph?

(I have read about flashing greens etc near peterborough, so did they just allow something similar in their countries where we just didn't because HMRI at the time were just odd or what's the story? Essentially, I thought they had colour aspect signals the same as us on these 137mph stretches?
UK signalling practice is based upon the separation of trains by distance, thus the signal spacing reflects the distance taken by a train to stop from the Driver seeing and reacting to the first cautionary signal aspect.

Until recently, signal spacing had to incororate a number of diverse types of train, all travelling at differing speeds and all with different braking distances. Thus as with many things, there has had to be a compromise between the ideal and the practical.

Foreign railway systems use both space separation and speed separation. In the latter case, the Driver is instructed on the speed they should be travelling at by the lineside signals. Such systems generally will have a red aspect as part of the proceed sequence, something which is prohibited in the UK and Ireland, and some European Countries.

The benefit of WW2 to many of the constituent Countries was that the railway infrastructure was in many cases completely destroyed in urban areas, and this made the introduction of "innovations" such as air braking and modern signalling with ATP style systems so much easier.

In the UK, we have always been held back by a lack of money. Another reason is that we seem to have had a wagon load culture far longer than our European cousins, the Former Soviet Union excepted of course.

No doubt more relaxed Regulatory systems were also a factor.
 

RichW1

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Thankyou Old Timer! So they do have some modification on their signals and some with a differing approach to what should and shouldn't be allowed?! At least now I have an answer! I should've posted the question here ages ago!

I thought they must have some sort of modification via the lighting system/safety systems that we don't; now I don't feel quite so annoyed as it's not a level playing field in that respect - not that it helps them though like I said!........

Even with 125mph running, our average speeds are faster on our classic WCML & ECML lines to most destinations than anywhere else in the world on non-modified lines AND faster than some modified lines in Germany which is worth noting! It seems that on the continent the junction layouts around stations are slower, there are many 100mph or slower sections in-between the high speed sections bringing average speeds down. We are being overtaken obviously, but until I did a few calcualtions, not as quickly as the press would have us all believe. It seems a case of hair and the tortoise! Continuous 125mph over longer stretches seem to still be quicker (marginally) than 137mph classic lines (and I concur there are few) and SOME 155mph lines in Germany between 2 major city destinations (which is the closest urban geographic model to the UK) because of slower sections of track in-between.

Gordonthemoron - I stand corrected! :)

By the way Nedchester and Stuart, you may be interested to know of a 125 I took in 1991 which took 1hr 41mins to York - 188.5 miles!! Most impressive and must have been going like hell. I even remember a random memory of seeing 2 faded blue mail vans sat in a siding at Woodwalton that's all but disappeared (and it was in a derelict siding state then). I still think our golden era since world war 2 was 1978/9 - 1994/5 in terms of speeds. Edinburgh was timetabled at 4hr 03 mins but we had a lot less traffic then as mentioned; I'm sure freight loops/new lower grade track for freight would remove a bit of this issue - people seem to forget that the freight flows have disappeared a hell of a lot since the Merry-go-round coal workings and industrial sunset era of the 80's too. So something's wrong.

One thing is for sure - the ECML will be the backbone of the east coast for at least the next 20 years as HS1 won't benefit that side of the country at all. I only wish they would finish electricfication of the ECML/extend to the new map of the ECML but I'm sure that if there's a chance of faster running than 125mph it will be left to an HSL and we have reached the peak in speed for that side of country until any such plan.

If you can be bothered to read anymore!...............

Straight line distances from point to point Britain isn't doing badly!.......

I note particularly when competing with air which takes a much straighter path, German railways are interesting as 3 major centres - Berlin to Frankfurt, Cologne or Munich takes 4 hours and to Munich some high speed is going to be used for 4 hours I think but feel free to correct me! ....
That means over a straight line distance from A-B the Berlin - Munich by train holds an average speed over the 311miles (in a straight line) of 78mph if the time is divided by the straight line distance. Berlin - Frankfurt is 263miles and 65mph, Cologne is 296 miles in 4 hours at 74mph average. London to Edinburgh is 331miles at 4hrs 20 mins and is 77mph with no high speed trains as such, to Manchester and Leeds averages 78mph using straight line mileage and division between time. Newcastle is 248miles at 2hrs 50mins giving 87mph. Geography and track alignment plays a huge part but point to point in a straight line, with comparison to the 3 largest populated regions in Germany compared to the British destinations point to point that's not bad going!
We know Germany could use other destinations of less population point to point times and smash our speeds on specific high speed sections but I have used point to point major city to major city start and termination points. In France the only non-connected TGV city of any importance is Toulouse and that currently takes 5hours for a straight line distance of 366miles (73mph) and with the TGV route chosen for the future it'll take 3hours (122mph straight line average)
Even if we take track mileage and not straight lines in Britain outside HS1 it's interesting that timetabled Pendolinos at 125mph make the 184miles to Warrington in 1 hr 43mins averaging 107.6mph all day but this has a couple of mins built in. Stafford to watford junction averages 110mph!! This is the actual time and not the timetabled time it takes the driver. With runs like that we might get back to the 1980's ;)
 

brad465

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One requirement needed to travel above 125mph lines need TVMs (transmission voie machines) which are the blue and yellow boards alongside high speed lines which transmits a signal and speed reading to the drivers cab.
 

Railsigns

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One requirement needed to travel above 125mph lines need TVMs (transmission voie machines) which are the blue and yellow boards alongside high speed lines which transmits a signal and speed reading to the drivers cab.

TVM (singular) is a cab signalling system (one of several). It transmits signalling and speed information to the train via coded track circuits. The blue and yellow boards are just block markers to give the driver something visible to stop at; they don't actually transmit anything.
 

brad465

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TVM (singular) is a cab signalling system (one of several). It transmits signalling and speed information to the train via coded track circuits. The blue and yellow boards are just block markers to give the driver something visible to stop at; they don't actually transmit anything.

true i guess ;)
 

Jan

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Regarding the original question, the maximum possible speed with conventional signalling in Germany is 88 mph, respectively 100 mph if the train is equipped with electromagnetic track brakes (applies to all long distance/intercity trains).
Anything above that, and you'll need cab signalling, i.e. LZB, or in the future, ETCS/ERTMS.
 

anonymous0101

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Yes I think Britain is the only country in the world that allows trains to travel faster than 100 mph without some form if in cab signalling.
 
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TVM (singular) is a cab signalling system (one of several). It transmits signalling and speed information to the train via coded track circuits. The blue and yellow boards are just block markers to give the driver something visible to stop at; they don't actually transmit anything.

Good clarification Railsigns.

I've just found quite a good summary of the TVM 430 signalling system on the website below. This is used on LGV lines in France and also on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (HS1) in the UK between St Pancras and the tunnel. the new stations (Stratford & Ebbesfleet) are also signaled with this but note that Ashford is controlled using SSI. The Interlocking for the TVM430 is located at Ashford IECC, along with the signaller's VDU panels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Voie-Machine
 
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