Hulley's of Baslow (Defunct)

[radamfi]

Having said that, I'll be surprised if this service is still going in 2 years time (but I wish them well and for it to be successful)

So even though you want it to succeed, you still think it isn't viable. Surely the money would be better spent in more deserving areas? For example, suburban areas suffering from congestion where bus services are unattractive. This new service mostly duplicates existing train services. There are other journey opportunities but it is clear from the marketing they are mostly after rail passengers.

 

[Ianno87]

So even though you want it to succeed, you still think it isn't viable.

Yes. (Rather, I think it is unlikely to be viable, but am more than happy to be proven wrong). That's hardly an illogical position to take.

Surely the money would be better spent in more deserving areas?

Giving Glossop residents a direct public transport link to enployment in Sheffield, and suburban Sheffield to employment in Manchester seems worthwhile?

For example, suburban areas suffering from congestion where bus services are unattractive. This new service mostly duplicates existing train services. There are other journey opportunities but it is clear from the marketing they are mostly after rail passengers.

I see it as abstracted rail passengers cross-subsidising the other journey opportunities for intermediate travellers I outline anove.

 

[radamfi]

Giving Glossop residents a direct public transport link to enployment in Sheffield, and suburban Sheffield to employment in Manchester seems worthwhile?

But, as you admit, the service is likely to be withdrawn sooner or later, that (relatively niche) utility is going to be gone anyway. Resources could have been used instead for more acutely needed services.

 

[Ianno87]

But, as you admit, the service is likely to be withdrawn sooner or later, that (relatively niche) utility is going to be gone anyway. Resources could have been used instead for more acutely needed services.

The "acutely needed" services possibly have less chance of eventually standing on their own two feet commercially.

The X57 *might* have a bit of an untapped market and so becomes self-funding (freeing resources for other uses)

 

[Robertj21a]

But, as you admit, the service is likely to be withdrawn sooner or later, that (relatively niche) utility is going to be gone anyway. Resources could have been used instead for more acutely needed services.

If you don't experiment you'll never know. The last thing we all need is an industry with no enthusiasm for change. It's a bold move from a small operator, and one that deserves our congratulations.

 

[radamfi]

If you don't experiment you'll never know. The last thing we all need is an industry with no enthusiasm for change. It's a bold move from a small operator, and one that deserves our congratulations.

Loads of so called "innovative" services get introduced all the time, a lot of them duplicating other services or parts of other services. The vast majority of these get withdrawn in a few months, yet suburban areas in major metropolises such as Greater Manchester suffer greatly through reduced and withdrawn services. All that money spent innovating could have been spent creating a proper integrated transport system.

 

[Robertj21a]

Loads of so called "innovative" services get introduced all the time, a lot of them duplicating other services or parts of other services. The vast majority of these get withdrawn in a few months, yet suburban areas in major metropolises such as Greater Manchester suffer greatly through reduced and withdrawn services. All that money spent innovating could have been spent creating a proper integrated transport system.

I doubt that Hulleys would want to operate in suburban Manchester. As a small, private, operator they are free to do whatever they wish. I don't recognise your view that 'innovative services get introduced all the time' - nor the 'vast majority get withdrawn in a few months'. Can you give some good examples so that I can better understand what you are getting at ?

 

[Llandudno]

The problem is if Hulley’s started running commercial, local services in Manchester, Sheffield and Chesterfield the big boys, Stagecoach and First would simply run them off the road with identical services at 10p fares to fend them off.

At least this route has little, or no competition, apart from (normally) a packed out and expensive train service. Fingers crossed they can make it pay, not sure I would launch it in the middle of a pandemic though!

 

[radamfi]

I doubt that Hulleys would want to operate in suburban Manchester. As a small, private, operator they are free to do whatever they wish. I don't recognise your view that 'innovative services get introduced all the time' - nor the 'vast majority get withdrawn in a few months'. Can you give some good examples so that I can better understand what you are getting at ?

There are literally hundreds of service changes throughout the year. A lot of them are minor tinkering with timings but quite a few are substantial route changes, promoted by the operator as significant improvements. And then a lot of these are reversed or changed again. Many examples can be seen in the Lothian/First threads regarding buses west of Edinburgh.

 

[Robertj21a]

Ah, I see, you're presumably assuming that the ongoing issues around Lothian are typical of the whole UK ?. Can you think of others that meet your criteria rather than just one localised issue ?

 

[KendalKing]

If you don't experiment you'll never know. The last thing we all need is an industry with no enthusiasm for change. It's a bold move from a small operator, and one that deserves our congratulations.

I second that. Also, due to lack enthusiasm from operators, is the reason why so many passengers have stop travelling by bus.

 

[radamfi]

Ah, I see, you're presumably assuming that the ongoing issues around Lothian are typical of the whole UK ?. Can you think of others that meet your criteria rather than just one localised issue ?

What about this? The service didn't even last a week! How much money was spent on this that could have been spent on more useful services?

North western which began running the 236 (Ashton-Glossop) using a pair of Darts has already run into difficulties as GB coaches has ran out of money and have stopped operating as the route was commercial service with no direct financial subsidy from DCC.

New 236 bus has stopped running

The new 236 bus service between Glossop and Ashton-under-Lyne, which only started earlier this week, has stopped running - temporarily at least.

www.questmedianetwork.co.uk

 

[Robertj21a]

What about this? The service didn't even last a week! How much money was spent on this that could have been spent on more useful services?

Well, if they ran out of money after just a week it suggests that they were in no state to operate anywhere else !

 

[175mph]

Fantastic and I wish them the best of luck with it.

 

[Megafuss]

Firstly, any new service is welcome and the timetable is fairly ambitious interms of the length of the service day. Personally, I have been trying to decide if this is is a great idea and a terrible one.

In normal times it's a risk and starting in Winter is not ideal. But if the new route is eligible under the Covid bus support scheme, then why not?

 

[Statto]

Interesting, hopefully it'll still be operating when leasure bus travel can start up again, as i'll have a ride on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, hopefully it'll still be operating when leasure bus travel can start up again, as i'll have a ride on it.

Unless you live in Bolton, leisure bus travel is allowed.

 

[tbtc]

Wonderful news, but that's going to be a very slow through journey for Sundays (via both Fairholmes and Bamford station).

Slightly surprised at mention of the Hallamshire Hospital, as the A57 services have traditionally gone via Western Bank/ Witham Road - but maybe the idea is to run via Glossop Road to use the same stops as the 271 (so that all daytime services towards Bamford go the same way out of Sheffield)? Or it's still going via Western Bank and they've only shown the Hallamshire on the map because it's bigger than the Children's/ Weston Park Hospitals?

This is after Hulleys introduced a service from Sheffield to Alton Towers - so they are at least trying to find new markets (as the tendered services in Derbyshire dry up, and other operators retrench)

 

[317 forever]

For those of us who are not pleased that some Sheffield - Manchester trains will still be EMR, we will have this bus route to compensate.

 

[choochootrain]

I've had to drive over the Snake Pass in the middle of winter and I have to say it was quite nerve wracking! Is that route really suitable for a bus route? Surely the A628 through Stocksbridge would be a better route?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So even though you want it to succeed, you still think it isn't viable. Surely the money would be better spent in more deserving areas? For example, suburban areas suffering from congestion where bus services are unattractive. This new service mostly duplicates existing train services. There are other journey opportunities but it is clear from the marketing they are mostly after rail passengers.

What money is being spent here than in more deserving areas?

This is a commercial venture?

 

[NorthOxonian]

I've had to drive over the Snake Pass in the middle of winter and I have to say it was quite nerve wracking! Is that route really suitable for a bus route? Surely the A628 through Stocksbridge would be a better route?

That would also draw in more intermediate traffic, but makes serving Glossop more difficult, and is further from Hulley's core base of operations (which could make reliability more of an issue).

 

[radamfi]

What money is being spent here than in more deserving areas?

This is a commercial venture?

Regardless of whose money it is, it costs money to run the service. This is a kamikaze route so when the service is withdrawn in a few months time, that money will have been shown to be wasted. Plus it takes money away from the railway, which we are all paying for. I don't see how we will be better off at that point once the service has ended.

 

[Ianno87]

. Plus it takes money away from the railway, which we are all paying for.

Depends whether the railway is adequately satisfying all potential demand. Two relatively low capacity trains per hour suggest it may not be.

 

[Robertj21a]

Regardless of whose money it is, it costs money to run the service. This is a kamikaze route so when the service is withdrawn in a few months time, that money will have been shown to be wasted. Plus it takes money away from the railway, which we are all paying for. I don't see how we will be better off at that point once the service has ended.

Well, if I ran a private bus company and wanted to use my own money to try out some innovation I probably wouldn't appreciate those who fail to recognise my efforts.

 

[philthetube]

Loads of so called "innovative" services get introduced all the time, a lot of them duplicating other services or parts of other services. The vast majority of these get withdrawn in a few months, yet suburban areas in major metropolises such as Greater Manchester suffer greatly through reduced and withdrawn services. All that money spent innovating could have been spent creating a proper integrated transport system.

If I wanted to run a bus service using my money I would, and I would run it where I wanted to, to criticize this is like me criticizing you for buying a cup of coffee wasting your cash when a cup of water would do, the person who has the cash decides, within reason, what to do with it.

 

[radamfi]

If I wanted to run a bus service using my money I would, and I would run it where I wanted to, to criticize this is like me criticizing you for buying a cup of coffee wasting your cash when a cup of water would do, the person who has the cash decides, within reason, what to do with it.

It isn't like that because the actions being discussed have knock on consequences. If it was so clear cut, you would be able to run a bus service wherever you wanted. But in most places outside Britain, it isn't allowed. Or at least you would need to get permission. It is allowed in Britain outside London, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[darloscott]

It isn't like that because the actions being discussed have knock on consequences. If it was so clear cut, you would be able to run a bus service wherever you wanted. But in most places outside Britain, it isn't allowed. Or at least you would need to get permission. It is allowed in Britain outside London, but that doesn't make it right.

The law says I can run a bus service wherever I like (within reason) outside of London and until that isn't the case then who's to say they aren't right? Indeed I've just started one in my region picking up a route that Arriva dropped.
I have some reservations over this X56/57 being ambitious in the winter season but then if you can tap into the CBSSG grants to fund it for the first few months while you build it up then why not give it a shot. Time will tell whether it's successful or not, the Alton Towers bus they're running seems to do fairly well despite Covid.

 

[radamfi]

The law says I can run a bus service wherever I like (within reason) outside of London and until that isn't the case then who's to say they aren't right?

Why do you think other countries don't allow it? If it is so obviously right, then there would be no debate about it.

I didn't know about the availability of grants for such services, that seems really wrong. I knew there was a bailout to keep existing buses on the road while no one is travelling, but this does seem a very inappropriate use of taxpayers' money, especially when routes have been cut so severely in many areas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It isn't like that because the actions being discussed have knock on consequences. If it was so clear cut, you would be able to run a bus service wherever you wanted. But in most places outside Britain, it isn't allowed. Or at least you would need to get permission. It is allowed in Britain outside London, but that doesn't make it right.

What are the knock on consequences?

End to end traffic will not move from rail because simply, the price differential for most people doesn't outweigh the time. Even between Glossop and Manchester, the train still has a massive time advantage. It will get some from Hollingworth hopefully and in respect of Glossop, it probably would get some pass holders who would ordinarily not travel. It also creates new links to Sheffield that don't currently exist and it might also encourage some leisure usage from the two main cities INTO the peak district that the train cannot provide, and in that respect, might help to take a few cars off the road?

Presumably, the alternative of central control is to simply remove any perceived duplication? Remove National Express/Megabus as they cover the same routes as trains? Remove the bus every 15 mins from Darlington to Middlesbrough, or between Bath and Bristol?

Bus very rarely abstracts trade from trains. The opposite is how the case.

One for @darloscott - does this qualify for CBSSG? If the scheme is based on 2019 mileage, has is this covered? Genuine question as I'm not familiar with the conditions of the funding