Silver Street to St Albans City

[SAPhil]

Yesterday I had the misfortune to have to make this unscheduled/unplanned journey! As a result I had to buy the ticket from the machine at Silver Street (no open booking office). All I was offered was an Anytime Day Single at £18.10 (or a cheaper but somewhat longer route via West Hampstead). These are also the fares shown on Brfares.com. This morning, because I was interested in what the actual routing for the cheaper option was, I checked out the routes on the national rail site. This tells me that the Anytime day single is £16.10 and that I could also have got an off peak ticket for £15.80. Any idea why there is a discrepancy? On principle I feel I should at least attempt to claim back the £2!

 

[trebor79]

Yesterday I had the misfortune to have to make this unscheduled/unplanned journey! As a result I had to buy the ticket from the machine at Silver Street (no open booking office). All I was offered was an Anytime Day Single at £18.10 (or a cheaper but somewhat longer route via West Hampstead). These are also the fares shown on Brfares.com. This morning, because I was interested in what the actual routing for the cheaper option was, I checked out the routes on the national rail site. This tells me that the Anytime day single is £16.10 and that I could also have got an off peak ticket for £15.80. Any idea why there is a discrepancy? On principle I feel I should at least attempt to claim back the £2!

I think you've made a mistake entering the journey into the national rail website. There is no off peak single ticket and the prices you quote from national rail for the anytime day single is incorrect.

 

[SAPhil]

I think you've made a mistake entering the journey into the national rail website. There is no off peak single ticket and the prices you quote from national rail for the anytime day single is incorrect.

This says otherwise!

 

[Haywain]

It would help to know if this was a one way journey, or a return, and at what time of day you were making the trip.
Information now provided.

The fare being shown on the National Rail journey planner is not actually valid from Silver Street - it is a fare from London Underground Zones 1-4 to St Albans City, and can only be used on a journey commencing at a London Underground station. This was revealed when following the link to buy from Thameslink as their website makes clear what the ticket is. This will be an error somewhere in the data that the NR journey planner uses.

 

[SAPhil]

It would help to know if this was a one way journey, or a return, and at what time of day you were making the trip.

I did say a single. I did forget to mention the time, it was as shown in the screenshot (20:00).

 

[Haywain]

I did say a single. I did forget to mention the time, it was as shown in the screenshot (20:00).

I asked because you said all that was offered was a single, not that you wanted a single, so wanted to be certain. However, I have now amended my previous post.

 

[iphone76]

If you have a contactless card, you can use this for £13.30 peak single and £10.50 off peak single saving a bit.

 

[AM9]

A cheaper option would have been a cheap day return (SDR) at £14.40.

 

[SAPhil]

I asked because you said all that was offered was a single, not that you wanted a single, so wanted to be certain. However, I have now amended my previous post.

Thanks for that info. That explains the £15.80 option but what about the £16.10 Anytime one? Is this another error!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

A cheaper option would have been a cheap day return (SDR) at £14.40.

That's the West Hampstead route that I was happy to avoid!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

It would help to know if this was a one way journey, or a return, and at what time of day you were making the trip.
Information now provided.

The fare being shown on the National Rail journey planner is not actually valid from Silver Street - it is a fare from London Underground Zones 1-4 to St Albans City, and can only be used on a journey commencing at a London Underground station. This was revealed when following the link to buy from Thameslink as their website makes clear what the ticket is. This will be an error somewhere in the data that the NR journey planner uses.

Having read your reply again somewhat more carefully, I now understand! It's a bit sad that the Network rail site can't get the fares correct! Thanks again.

 

[CyrusWuff]

£16.10 is the Zone U1234 to St Albans City Anytime Day Single, so again not valid from Silver Street.

 

[akm]

£16.10 is the Zone U1234 to St Albans City Anytime Day Single, so again not valid from Silver Street.

Why not? Silver Street is in zone 4, so...?

 

[alistairlees]

Why not? Silver Street is in zone 4, so...?

There must be an underground leg at the start for this ticket to be valid.

 

[Starmill]

I think the confusion is arising here because U zone tickets are valid on London Underground and DLR services within the zones specified, for the U Zone portion of the journey.

However, they are also valid on routes where London Underground tickets are available on national rail services. I'm afraid I don't have a full list to hand, but between Queens Park and Harrow and Wealdstone I believe is one example where a U zone ticket would be valid on London Overground, as interavailable with London Underground services on that section. The East London line, as a route converted from London Underground to London Overground operations, has special arrangements for the acceptence of U zone tickets.

Finally there is custom and practice. I'm told that TfL Rail and London Overground tacitly accept London Underground U zone tickets for the relevant zones on their services, despite this not being generally defined. If you had already booked a Zone U 1234 to St Albans City ticket and showed it to the station staff at Silver Street, asking if it were valid for the journey from that station on London Overground, I imagine it is very likely that they would have said it was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

A cheaper option would have been a cheap day return (SDR) at £14.40.

There's some confusion here. SDR is a code which generally means Anytime Day Return. Cheap Day Return is a historical name for tickets that mostly were renamed Off Peak Day Return. The price in question at £14.40 is only valid for a route which the OP has mentioned already that they were disinclined to use .

 

[AM9]

There's some confusion here. SDR is a code which generally means Anytime Day Return. Cheap Day Return is a historical name for tickets that mostly were renamed Off Peak Day Return. The price in question at £14.40 is only valid for a route which the OP has mentioned already that they were disinclined to use .

Yes 'SDR' was a typo (I described it as a cheap day return so 'CDR' would be correct). BRFares just says "via West Hampstead" which given the difficulty of joining the MMLTL services north of there, all routes woulld be via WHP. As NRE doesn't seem to offer that fare, what would the route have to be?

 

[Haywain]

Yes 'SDR' was a typo (I described it as a cheap day return so 'CDR' would be correct). BRFares just says "via West Hampstead" which given the difficulty of joining the MMLTL services north of there, all routes woulld be via WHP. As NRE doesn't seem to offer that fare, what would the route have to be?

Not sure what MMLTL means but I believe the routing of ‘West Hampstead’ clearly references the north London line whereas Thameslink services pass through West Hampstead Thameslink.

 

[Starmill]

Yes 'SDR' was a typo (I described it as a cheap day return so 'CDR' would be correct). BRFares just says "via West Hampstead" which given the difficulty of joining the MMLTL services north of there, all routes woulld be via WHP. As NRE doesn't seem to offer that fare, what would the route have to be?

Presumably a route which passes through West Hampstead [WHD], rather than only through West Hampstead Thameslink [WHP], as I guess the OP wished to do.

 

[kieron]

Yes 'SDR' was a typo (I described it as a cheap day return so 'CDR' would be correct). BRFares just says "via West Hampstead" which given the difficulty of joining the MMLTL services north of there, all routes woulld be via WHP. As NRE doesn't seem to offer that fare, what would the route have to be?

The route isn't the main problem for NRE. The ticket doesn't have a ✠ on it, so the web site will only offer a route which involves London Underground if there's an interavailable route defined for it. There is one from Seven Sisters, as it happens, but only if your ticket includes London Underground travel anyway.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

But once again, once NRE has mucked up the loading of the fare (or was it TL?) the ticket and validity should be honoured by the industry on the basis that under consumer law, where there are misleading price indications, the customer gets the benefit not the producer. I appreciate ORR remains completely incapable of enforcing any broader consumer protection legislation (despite making loads of noise about wanting to do so a few years ago)...
Knowledge of what U1234 covers in my experience remains pretty limited so I am not surprised that LO staff in reality accept these tickets anyway.

 

[bb21]

But once again, once NRE has mucked up the loading of the fare (or was it TL?) the ticket and validity should be honoured by the industry on the basis that under consumer law, ...

... if you managed to purchase that fare with the given itinerary. I agree.

The OP was not offered the incorrect fare for purchase at the station.

 

[lightbulb]

But once again, once NRE has mucked up the loading of the fare (or was it TL?) the ticket and validity should be honoured by the industry on the basis that under consumer law, where there are misleading price indications, the customer gets the benefit not the producer. I appreciate ORR remains completely incapable of enforcing any broader consumer protection legislation (despite making loads of noise about wanting to do so a few years ago)...
Knowledge of what U1234 covers in my experience remains pretty limited so I am not surprised that LO staff in reality accept these tickets anyway.

I travelled from Luton to Cannon Street last week, and asked for a CDR betwen LUT and London Bridge, and an SDR between LBG and CST. I was sold a ticket from LUT to U1234, and when I rejected it and asked to be sold what I had asked for was told that the U1234 ticket was valid by rail between LBG and CST. I wasn't convinced...

 

[BluePenguin]

I travelled from Luton to Cannon Street last week, and asked for a CDR betwen LUT and London Bridge, and an SDR between LBG and CST. I was sold a ticket from LUT to U1234, and when I rejected it and asked to be sold what I had asked for was told that the U1234 ticket was valid by rail between LBG and CST. I wasn't convinced...

How very strange. A journey possible entirely by National Rail and you were sold a U1234. Wouldn't have a ticket to London Thameslink be sufficient? I bought one when I travelled Luton Airport to Charing Cross last year.

 

[lightbulb]

How very strange. A journey possible entirely by National Rail and you were sold a U1234. Wouldn't have a ticket to London Thameslink be sufficient? I bought one when I travelled Luton Airport to Charing Cross last year.

No, as London Thameslink from the north is valid as far as LBG or Elephant & Castle, and not onwards to CHX or CST.

 

[BluePenguin]

No, as London Thameslink from the north is valid as far as LBG or Elephant & Castle, and not onwards to CHX or CST.

Ah fair, I never had any trouble at the time. I thought London Thameslink unlocked all southern terminals

 

[Haywain]

Ah fair, I never had any trouble at the time. I thought London Thameslink unlocked all southern terminals

No, it covers travel to all of the Thameslink served London terminal stations plus Elephant & Castle and, for the pedants, Farringdon

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think the confusion is arising here because U zone tickets are valid on London Underground and DLR services within the zones specified, for the U Zone portion of the journey.

However, they are also valid on routes where London Underground tickets are available on national rail services. I'm afraid I don't have a full list to hand, but between Queens Park and Harrow and Wealdstone I believe is one example where a U zone ticket would be valid on London Overground, as interavailable with London Underground services on that section.

I agree with you that it looks like that's where the confusion is arising. To the best of my knowledge the correct list of routes on which U-zone fares are valid is between the following sets of stations:

• Amersham and Marylebone
• Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate
• Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park
• Richmond and Gunnersbury
• Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow Central, and Liverpool Street
• Stratford and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale
• Stratford and Liverpool Street
• Upminster and Fenchurch Street / Liverpool Street but not at Forest Gate or Maryland.
• West Ruislip and South Ruislip
• West Hampstead Thameslink and Elephant & Castle / London Bridge

So it would be valid on the line in question, but only from stations south of Seven Sisters (Silver Street is a couple of stations north of Seven Sisters). For example, it would be valid from Stoke Newington (SKW) to St Albans (SAC) changing at Seven Sisters and King's Cross St Pancras, and nicely undercuts the point-to-point fare from SKW to SAC, which is anomalously even more expensive than the fare from Silver Street. But it's not valid from Sliver Street as the line is not interavailable north of Seven Sisters.

In summary, it looks to me like a misunderstanding on the part of whoever has coded Silverrail's data (used by NRE).

 

[317 forever]

Due to zone fares in London, I wonder whether by keeping to slow trains stopping at Mill Hill Broadway, it could have been cheaper to split the ticket at Mill Hill Broadway? I mean even without using an Oystercard to avoid having to stop off there.

 

[Haywain]

Due to zone fares in London, I wonder whether by keeping to slow trains stopping at Mill Hill Broadway, it could have been cheaper to split the ticket at Mill Hill Broadway? I mean even without using an Oystercard to avoid having to stop off there.

Why Mill Hill Broadway?

 

[317 forever]

Why Mill Hill Broadway?

Because that is the final station in Greater London on the main Thameslink line to St Albans and some St Albans trains stop there.

I have just checked. The off-peak single fares without Oyster are:

Silver Street - Mill Hill Broadway - £8.10 (via Seven Sisters and St Pancras International)

Mill Hill Broadway - St Albans City - £6.60

Silver Street - Mill Hill Broadway - £15.80

So yes, at least off-peak it does prove cheaper.

 

[MikeWh]

Elsetree and Borehamwood is the last station in zone 6.

 

[Hadders]

You would need to step back a train at Mil Hill Broadway or Elstree & Borehamwood. It's highly unlikely you could tap out, tap back in and re-board the same train.