Uses for ex-Grand Central Mk4s?

[Bletchleyite]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #6 originally in this thread.

Its true i’m afraid. GC have pulled the plug

That's a lot to spend before doing that! Will the Mk4s be useful elsewhere?

 

[Iskra]

That's a lot to spend before doing that! Will the Mk4s be useful elsewhere?

More for TFW?

 

[Huntergreed]

I hope the MK4’s and 90’s have something lined up? Going to scrap just seems such an enormous waste

 

[mmh]

That's a lot to spend before doing that! Will the Mk4s be useful elsewhere?

TFW would be a sensible place, which sadly means it'd never happen.

 

[DorkingMain]

TFW would be a sensible place, which sadly means it'd never happen.

TfW will probably take the attitude that they aren't refurbished to the correct spec, and thus they don't want them.

The Mk4s + DVT would be excellent for a non-electrified middle distance route if appropriate locos could be found.

 

[ABB125]

The Mk4s + DVT would be excellent for a non-electrified middle distance route if appropriate locos could be found.

CrossCountry "local" routes?


(Runs for cover!)

 

[DorkingMain]

Stick some HST power cars on each end and make a Castle set lol

In all seriousness, unfortunately the relatively small number of sets Grand Central had put together (5x2+6) probably means it will be difficult to find a home for them unless they're part of a wider project. There's already plenty of 365s sitting with no home; and 350/2s, 360s and further electric stock will be coming spare soon.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Five 6-car rakes, compatible with Class 67s.

Or, compatible with an extremely pokey electric locomotive that can do AC and DC.

Commandeer 12 more off TfW (give them something else!) and you’ve got 7 rakes.

I suspect commuters would love them in North Kent!

 

[Iskra]

CrossCountry "local" routes?


(Runs for cover!)

To be fair, you would think an Arriva owned operator would be the logical destination, if they want to recover the cost of the refurb since Arriva own GC. XC are crying out for rolling stock.

 

[ABB125]

Stick some HST power cars on each end and make a Castle set lol

In all seriousness, unfortunately the relatively small number of sets Grand Central had put together (5x2+6) probably means it will be difficult to find a home for them unless they're part of a wider project. There's already plenty of 365s sitting with no home; and 350/2s, 360s and further electric stock will be coming spare soon.

Well, they could be formed into six seven six (corrected back!) 4-car sets, which would probably be sufficient to take over the whole of the TfW Holyhead to Cardiff service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, you would think an Arriva owned operator would be the logical destination, if they want to recover the cost of the refurb since Arriva own GC. XC are crying out for rolling stock.

How many sets would be needed to run Manchester-Birmingham using them on a self contained basis?

 

[43096]

Five 6-car rakes, compatible with Class 67s.

Or, compatible with an extremely pokey electric locomotive that can do AC and DC.

Commandeer 12 more off TfW (give them something else!) and you’ve got 7 rakes.

I suspect commuters would love them in North Kent!

GC have/had four Mark 4 sets.

 

[Anonymous10]

The mark 4s should go to either tfw or to cross country with tfw they could used to run long distance services such as Milford haven to Manchester Piccadilly which would alleviate the issue of the 197s which personally are more regional to work the routes the 170s are then deploy them to other operators. With cross country they could be used on services such as Cardiff to Nottingham which again displaces regional trains ie the class 170 to be used elsewhere or transferred to a different operator. Unfortunately these being sensible will never happen

 

[ABB125]

How many sets would be needed to run Manchester-Birmingham using them on a self contained basis?

Appears to be about 1.5 hours each way, so let's say 4 hour round trip, 8 sets plus spare maybe?

 

[ainsworth74]

To be fair, you would think an Arriva owned operator would be the logical destination, if they want to recover the cost of the refurb since Arriva own GC. XC are crying out for rolling stock.

Well, when WSMR (owned by DB Regio) went under their Mk3s ended up moving to Chiltern (also DB Regio). Arriva of course are now the successor of DB Regio (speaking roughly) so moving them to another member of the Arriva group would have precedence...

 

[Anonymous10]

Five 6-car rakes, compatible with Class 67s.

Or, compatible with an extremely pokey electric locomotive that can do AC and DC.

Commandeer 12 more off TfW (give them something else!) and you’ve got 7 rakes.

I suspect commuters would love them in North Kent!

Unfortunately I wouldn't agree with doing that as I believe the service is a franchise commitment and would have to be replaced by another loco hauled also they r currently working out the mods to run using diesel loco once done it makes sense as Wales is short of long distance suitable stock

 

[ABB125]

Well, when WSMR (owned by DB Regio) went under their Mk3s ended up moving to Chiltern (also DB Regio). Arriva of course are now the successor of DB Regio (speaking roughly) so moving them to another member of the Arriva group would have precedence...

I wonder whether Chiltern would be interested? Either as a Mk 3 replacement or as a supplement? Might not be enough spare class 68s around though!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Unfortunately I wouldn't agree with doing that as I believe the service is a franchise commitment and would have to be replaced by another loco hauled also they r currently working out the mods to run using diesel loco once done it makes sense as Wales is short of long distance suitable stock

Suffice to say it was the least serious thing I’ve ever put on this forum!

 

[ScotRail158725]

I hope the MK4’s and 90’s have something lined up? Going to scrap just seems such an enormous waste

How so? A lot of the LNER counterparts have seen the cutters torch so there’s no reason that this cant happen or thats its a “waste”. Typical response to any traction being sent for scrap

 

[Energy]

CrossCountry "local" routes?


(Runs for cover!)

Cross Country wouldn't be too much of a suprise, another Arriva company and is in dire need for more stock. However unless they can have electric only routes it isn't worth the bother for only a few more sets. Unfortunately XC has some bits not electrified on all its routes.

 

[ABB125]

List of potential options:

• Most sensible:
  • TfW, to supplement their three (?) planned Mk 4 sets, and hopefully take over the entire Holyhead-Cardiff service for simplicity
• Other reasonable ideas:
  • CrossCountry, as a capacity boost (the problem being where would they be deployed?)
  • Temporary move to East Midlands to replace some "less non-compliant" Mk 3s?
• Possible, but probably not:
  • Chiltern, to replace or supplement the Mk 3s as seen fit (lack of class 68s through?)
  • Scotrail, to provide more long-distance capacity
  • GWR (more Castle sets, but using class 67s instead?)

Realistically, I can only see them going to TfW.

 

[Anonymous10]

How so? A lot of the LNER counterparts have seen the cutters torch so there’s no reason that this cant happen or thats its a “waste”. Typical response to any traction being sent for scrap

With operators procuring regional trains for intercity workings I'd retain them and then have them distributed same goes for all stock make sure appropriate stock being used everywhere plus cross country is chronically short when it comes to capacity

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

Cross Country wouldn't be too much of a suprise, another Arriva company and is in dire need for more stock. However unless they can have electric only routes it isn't worth the bother for only a few more sets. Unfortunately XC has some bits not electrified on all its routes.

If they waited they could possibly take lessons from tfw having adapted the mk4d for use even if it meant paying a small amount

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

List of potential options:

• Most sensible:
  • TfW, to supplement their three (?) planned Mk 4 sets, and hopefully take over the entire Holyhead-Cardiff service for simplicity
• Other reasonable ideas:
  • CrossCountry, as a capacity boost (the problem being where would they be deployed?)
  • Temporary move to East Midlands to replace some "less non-compliant" Mk 3s?
• Possible, but probably not:
  • Chiltern, to replace or supplement the Mk 3s as seen fit (lack of class 68s through?)
  • Scotrail, to provide more long-distance capacity
  • GWR (more Castle sets, but using class 67s instead?)

Realistically, I can only see them going to TfW.

Couldn't agree more they make maximum sense with tfw and free up more stock to cascade

 

[JonathanH]

cross country is chronically short when it comes to capacity

Capacity costs money whether it is needed on not. Class 67s can't do the job needed to drag these coaches around. A timetable change to accommodate 90+Mk4 on Birmingham to Manchester is a big step / upheaval.

 

[ABB125]

Cross Country wouldn't be too much of a suprise, another Arriva company and is in dire need for more stock. However unless they can have electric only routes it isn't worth the bother for only a few more sets. Unfortunately XC has some bits not electrified on all its routes.

That is the problem, which route(s) do you put them on? They'd be unsuitable for the "local" routes due to end doors and the perennial Stansted platform length issue, and the shortest "proper" route (Manchester-Bristol) interworks with the Manchester-Bournemouth.
Manchester-Bristol would, however, be ideal for a "bi-mode" Mk 4 set: class 90 on the north end, class 67 the other; electric Manchester to Brimingham, diesel round Camp Hill, electric King's Norton to Bromsgrove, diesel to Bristol. On the way back, hammer the class 67 on the approach to Bromsgrove, then whack up the pantograph for the incline! What's not to like?
Back in the real world...

 

[Iskra]

Capacity costs money whether it is needed on not. Class 67s can't do the job needed to drag these coaches around. A timetable change to accommodate 90+Mk4 on Birmingham to Manchester is a big step / upheaval.

York-Edinburgh with class 91's? To free up Voyagers and reduce diesel under the wires.

 

[ScotRail158725]

List of potential options:

• Most sensible:
  • TfW, to supplement their three (?) planned Mk 4 sets, and hopefully take over the entire Holyhead-Cardiff service for simplicity
• Other reasonable ideas:
  • CrossCountry, as a capacity boost (the problem being where would they be deployed?)
  • Temporary move to East Midlands to replace some "less non-compliant" Mk 3s?
• Possible, but probably not:
  • Chiltern, to replace or supplement the Mk 3s as seen fit (lack of class 68s through?)
  • Scotrail, to provide more long-distance capacity
  • GWR (more Castle sets, but using class 67s instead?)

Realistically, I can only see them going to TfW.

Option 4: Booths or Newport

 

[Mainline421]

They could recrue an extremely miniscule amount of money from their investment by running them on a railtour from Euston to Blackpool in their GC state . I'd definitely book this!

 

[Journeyman]

How so? A lot of the LNER counterparts have seen the cutters torch so there’s no reason that this cant happen or thats its a “waste”. Typical response to any traction being sent for scrap

Yup. They were designed for a life of thirty years, and they've worked for...thirty years. Let's not desperately look for a place to plonk a not-very-useful micro-fleet. They've served us well, it might just be the end.

 

[Anonymous10]

That is the problem, which route(s) do you put them on? They'd be unsuitable for the "local" routes due to end doors and the perennial Stansted platform length issue, and the shortest "proper" route (Manchester-Bristol) interworks with the Manchester-Bournemouth.
Manchester-Bristol would, however, be ideal for a "bi-mode" Mk 4 set: class 90 on the north end, class 67 the other; electric Manchester to Brimingham, diesel round Camp Hill, electric King's Norton to Bromsgrove, diesel to Bristol. On the way back, hammer the class 67 on the approach to Bromsgrove, then whack up the pantograph for the incline! What's not to like?
Back in the real world...

Maybe Manchester to Cardiff via Bristol but then InterWorks with tfw Manchester to Swansea services

 

[ABB125]

Option 4: Booths or Newport

Yup. They were designed for a life of thirty years, and they've worked for...thirty years. Let's not desperately look for a place to plonk a not-very-useful micro-fleet. They've served us well, it might just be the end.

I would have thought that the unrefurbished Mk 4s would be scrapped in preference to the GC ones. But, I personally have no emotional attachment to them, so I don't really mind either way.