How secure are booking office jobs

[Philip]

I'm wondering what effect people think the increasing move towards online tickets (either using phones or ticket machines) will have on the job security of booking office staff in the UK, over the next 5-10 years, or even sooner?

Booking office staff continue to provide invaluable advice and information for passengers which, for various reasons, they often can't obtain digitally and are more reliable than the temperamental ticket machines and apps/website booking systems. But with passenger numbers severely down and no guarantee they will recover to previous levels, it doesn't look a very healthy situation over the next few years.

Do you think booking office staff should remain for the reasons outlined above, perhaps with slightly redefined roles towards travel advisers rather than ticket clerks? Or is there little case to keep them in any way?

Finally, how secure do you think this role will be over the next few years? Are the unions likely to prevent any office closures/cutting staff?

 

[Journeyman]

Technology completely wiped out booking offices on the Underground. I think they face a similar existential threat on the main line. COVID is accelerating that trend, due to an understandable desire to reduce contact. It's finally accelerating the move to e- and m-ticketing.

A lot more travellers are becoming tech savvy and booking online now. I think travel centres at big stations will survive, but if the railway needs to cut costs in the near future, I think a lot of booking offices will go.

Not sure how the unions will handle it. I was a booking clerk in the mid 90s and was in TSSA, who were quite moderate at the time. I'd imagine a rather more belligerent approach these days.

 

[the sniper]

I think the fallout from Covid 19 will be decisive. The booking offices have long been viewed as vulnerable. With the RMT likely to be facing an unprecedented challenge on every front, they'll struggle to hold on to already vulnerable positions.

 

[Geeves]

Numbers over the last ten years are way way down never mind covid, the days of having a queue at rush hour are over and will never return. We were told that so long as the booking office was covering its own costs it would remain open, I have just covered an office that in the past the afternoon would see 250 sales and today it was 37. You cannot help but worry

For me Ive always thought it would make sense for some offices to become just a base and send the person based there out as a roving ticket sales person as half the time the folks just walk right past anyway. Who knows what the future holds but I dont think ticket offices at the smaller stations are long for this earth.

 

[yorkie]

I've had very poor experience from many ticket office clerks.

LNER tend to be the best in my experience; York station is very good. But ticket offices operated by TOCs like Northern generally offer a very poor level of service in my experience; my conclusion is that many of the staff and the companies they represent don't particularly want customers to use their services.

Loads of examples of this e.g:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ct-people-back-onto-rail.208864/#post-4758923
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rtvs-rejected-at-station.208163/page-4#post-4756845
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-off-peak-return-from-another-station.208617/

Those are just the tip of the iceberg and not going back beyond a week.

The reality is many of these people don't want our custom; I now prefer to book an e-ticket online, which I assume is what these people want me to do.

 

[Fokx]

Perhaps it’s time the railway moves more towards a route similar to supermarkets?
Large banks of self-service ticket machines capable of card/cash/contactless payments that are staffed by a member of staff who can help passengers unfamiliar with the technology or ticket types

Do we really need someone/groups of people permanently sat at a desk behind a screen when a large proportion of tickets are available or could be reasonably added to self-service vending machines?

Another route could maybe see redeployment of staff focused more around ticket gates and customer service and having a small portable counter (similar to those used for penalty fares) where along with selling tickets and issuing penalty fares, other facilities that the ticket office offer such as photocards and railcards could be issued?

Liverpool Lime Street for example has a ‘advance travel ticket office’, a ‘tickets for today office’, a ‘information point’ and a penalty fare/promise to pay counter. I really doubt that many of these could not be merged into one functional office?

 

[bramling]

I've had very poor experience from many ticket office clerks.

LNER tend to be the best in my experience; York station is very good. But ticket offices operated by TOCs like Northern generally offer a very poor level of service in my experience; my conclusion is that many of the staff and the companies they represent don't particularly want customers to use their services.

Loads of examples of this e.g:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ct-people-back-onto-rail.208864/#post-4758923
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rtvs-rejected-at-station.208163/page-4#post-4756845
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-off-peak-return-from-another-station.208617/

Those are just the tip of the iceberg and not going back beyond a week.

The reality is many of these people don't want our custom; I now prefer to book an e-ticket online, which I assume is what these people want me to do.

I’d say it’s more a function of an extremely complex ticketing system and perhaps insufficient staff training.

I’m sure there’s an element that many on here seek obscure tickets, however I’d have to agree that I’d prefer to use machines as I find ticket offices a rather hit-and-miss experience. Unfortunately certain ticket types only come from a ticket office...

I’d urge caution on the LU model though. What this has seen in reality is either no staff in the ticket hall at all, or utter chaos as everyone crowds round the roaming staff. At least a ticket window is a relatively civilised experience.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think booking offices have been on borrowed time for the last 15 years or so. The only thing keeping them going I believe, is the fact the railway ticketing system is so complex

 

[43066]

They were looking vulnerable pre Covid, and even more so now. Particularly so in areas with “smart ticketing” such as London, where virtually everybody uses either Oyster or contactless, or season tickets.

Over the last year my local station booking office has had “position closed” blinds down 75% of the times I’ve wanted to use it during normal business hours (to buy various priv tickets), so I’m sorry to say they aren’t something I’ll personally miss if they do go.

I suspect there’s more of a long term future for booking offices at major terminals, which always seem well patronised, no doubt due to the complexity of the ticketing system and larger numbers of occasional/long distance travellers.

 

[Hadders]

Since privatisation passenger journeys have more than doubled but the number of staff working in booking offices has reduced significantly.

 

[387star]

Southern tried to close offices and reduce hours with staff moved to the concourse a few years back but plans were halted

 

[Seehof]

Years ago many enthusiasts worked in booking offices and their knowledge and experience served many thousands of customers very well. I agree with a previous post that the staff at York are excellent and I wish them well as they have just moved the travel centre into small premises (the former ladies toilets!)

 

[pompeyfan]

South West Trains had the customer ambassador position at smaller stations with the intention being they would roam the station and assist use with TVMs but would also do booking office type roles. Some were better than others.

if the choice was lose your job completely or make yourself more visible and take on station presentation roles I’d like to think the choice would be obvious however I’m aware my comments are a bit hypocritical when you compare them to the guards dispute.

 

[Failed Unit]

The writing was on the wall a long time ago.

I prefer to use them over the ATMs - but wouldn't queue for them if the ATM was free. The smart ticketing in my area (WGC) doesn't really help as in a lot of cases the paper ticket is cheaper, super off-peak for example. But once they get KeyGo able to automatically do travelcards (it may already do so) then I won't need to use the paper tickets again.

The long distance complex journeys I tend to book myself with the help from the knowledgeable people on this website. I don't expect a booking clerk to know the best place to split a journey from A - C, some of course will but that kind of thing is best IMO phoning a friend or using a website.

Covid will probably speed up the closure at the smaller stations, which are only staffed really to cover the AM peak. They do good business in Carnet and Season renewals, but the TOCs were wanting technology to replace these before Covid. Now they are probably lucky to do 10 transactions per hour.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I do think for the foreseeable future there will still be a need for ticket offices - the older generation don't tend to use mobile phone apps and are more like to purchase a ticket in a traditional manner. Unfortunately, Covid19 has moved the goal posts and many TOCs will be actively avoiding the paper tickets for health & safety reasons. Sometimes the guards don't touch your ticket anyway - they simply view it, but the danger then is dishonest passengers will try and use the same ticket again if its not been 'clipped'.

CJ

 

[Carlisle]

If memory serves correctly station rebuilding/refurbishments undertaken early on in the Network South East or Intercity era often included installing additional ticket office windows &/or provisions for travel centres & it’s only luck the online boom coincided with privatisation & saved TOCs considerable expense of expanding booking offices given the doubling or more of passages numbers they’ve benefited from over the last 2 decades

 

[Stigy]

I do think for the foreseeable future there will still be a need for ticket offices - the older generation don't tend to use mobile phone apps and are more like to purchase a ticket in a traditional manner. Unfortunately, Covid19 has moved the goal posts and many TOCs will be actively avoiding the paper tickets for health & safety reasons. Sometimes the guards don't touch your ticket anyway - they simply view it, but the danger then is dishonest passengers will try and use the same ticket again if its not been 'clipped'.

CJ

I really don't think it matters to TOCs about those who are reluctant to use technology for whatever reason. TOCs have been reducing Ticket Office opening ours for years now, with the introduction of TVMs that can do most things, and video help points for when a person has difficulties. The introduction of grades such as Customer Ambassadors on SWR were also intended to replace ticket offices at a lot of smaller locations.

 

[43066]

if the choice was lose your job completely or make yourself more visible and take on station presentation roles I’d like to think the choice would be obvious however I’m aware my comments are a bit hypocritical when you compare them to the guards dispute.

I’d say there’s a very clear and justifiable case for guards who sell tickets, dispatch trains, and provide a visible customer service presence (yes, there’s a minority who let the side down by hiding, but most add real value).

There’s less of a case for ticket offices, which hardly anybody uses anyway, which are constantly “position closed” despite staff being heard chatting and moving around behind the blinds.

 

[Supertrains19]

Don’t forget most ticket office fall under schedule 17 within a TOCs franchise agreement which means they have to staff them for a set number of hours as per the agreement so I would say they still have some security, certainly the next 5 years, even under emergency measures the DFT are insisting on maintaining this schedule so safe again for the time being.

 

[Philip]

I’d say there’s a very clear and justifiable case for guards who sell tickets, dispatch trains, and provide a visible customer service presence (yes, there’s a minority who let the side down by hiding, but most add real value).

There’s less of a case for ticket offices, which hardly anybody uses anyway, which are constantly “position closed” despite staff being heard chatting and moving around behind the blinds.

This could be because of staff on break or the ticket machine having problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

There is a different argument to all this though, keeping unemployment low is important and so why needlessly create more unemployment by closing offices?

 

[TurbostarFan]

Perhaps it’s time the railway moves more towards a route similar to supermarkets?
Large banks of self-service ticket machines capable of card/cash/contactless payments that are staffed by a member of staff who can help passengers unfamiliar with the technology or ticket types

Do we really need someone/groups of people permanently sat at a desk behind a screen when a large proportion of tickets are available or could be reasonably added to self-service vending machines?

Another route could maybe see redeployment of staff focused more around ticket gates and customer service and having a small portable counter (similar to those used for penalty fares) where along with selling tickets and issuing penalty fares, other facilities that the ticket office offer such as photocards and railcards could be issued?

Liverpool Lime Street for example has a ‘advance travel ticket office’, a ‘tickets for today office’, a ‘information point’ and a penalty fare/promise to pay counter. I really doubt that many of these could not be merged into one functional office?

Norwich station by was of comparison used to have separate queues for "tickets for today", and "other enquiries" in the ticket office, as well as a help point. It didn't used to have a counter for "travellers without tickets" (as it is known in Spain). Nowadays it has a single queue in the ticket office for everyone, plus an information office (not help point anymore though which isn't ideal these days given the current COVID-19 situation), and a makeshift counter for "travellers without tickets", which is staffed by Greater Anglia RPOs and Conductors on a part time basis. Interesting.

 

[Starmill]

The roles are very likely to be changing significantly in the next few years, starting with the least used stations. The overall quantum of jobs may not actually be reduced, though.

 

[43066]

This could be because of staff on break or the ticket machine having problems.

This has happened the majority of times I have wanted to use the ticket office, going back years. Its got to the point where if I’m buying a priv I will plan to buy it at a London terminal because I cannot rely on my local ticket office to be open.

The ticket machines have been serviceable every time, and there are two ticket windows, so why not stagger the breaks so that one can remain manned?

There is a different argument to all this though, keeping unemployment low is important and so why needlessly create more unemployment by closing offices?

I don’t want to see people lose their jobs -
far from it - but manning a ticket office in an area where 95%+ of journeys won’t require a paper ticket is increasingly hard to justify.

 

[Journeyman]

I don’t want to see people lose their jobs -
far from it - but manning a ticket office in an area where 95%+ of journeys won’t require a paper ticket is increasingly hard to justify.

This is what the unions need to realise, and get on board with - how can these staff best serve the security, safety and satisfaction of passengers?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Don’t forget most ticket office fall under schedule 17 within a TOCs franchise agreement which means they have to staff them for a set number of hours as per the agreement so I would say they still have some security, certainly the next 5 years, even under emergency measures the DFT are insisting on maintaining this schedule so safe again for the time being.

Schedule 17 can be changed at the Department for Transport's whim if they so desired

 

[miami]

I’d say it’s more a function of an extremely complex ticketing system and perhaps insufficient staff training.

Someone wanting to buy a super off peak ticket. Hardly "extremely complex".

The transaction was eventually completed after lots of dire warnings about how they shouldn't be doing it, so clearly the staff know how to issue such a complex ticket.

Isn't the whole point of having staff available is to help when there are extremely complex tickets? As it stands it seems that booking staff only want to sell the simplest of tickets for immediate travel from that specific station, and then only grudgingly.

Given the railway needs to cut costs dramatically, if it's a matter of closing stations or lines, or getting rid of people at Surbiton ticket office, I know where I'd want my tax income to go.

keeping unemployment low is important and so why needlessly create more unemployment by closing offices?

The railway is not a jobs program. Why spend £100k a year subsidising needless jobs at Surbiton (one where the staff member doesn't even sell the ticket asked for) when that £50k could instead employ a nurse or policeman?

 

[James H]

I think there is a case for a 'station agent' type role at single-staffed stations with a wider range of duties than (merely) ticket sales behind a window.

 

[Journeyman]

I think there is a case for a 'station agent' type role at single-staffed stations with a wider range of duties than (merely) ticket sales behind a window.

Very much so, and as someone who has worked in a ticket office in a sleepy backwater, it would be more interesting that sitting behind a window for seven and half hours, only one of which is ever busy.

 

[Haywain]

there are two ticket windows, so why not stagger the breaks so that one can remain manned?

Because, for example, staffing a station over 12 hours, with two people on shifts of 7.5 hours each would make that a bit difficult.

 

[Philip]

Someone wanting to buy a super off peak ticket. Hardly "extremely complex".

The transaction was eventually completed after lots of dire warnings about how they shouldn't be doing it, so clearly the staff know how to issue such a complex ticket.

Isn't the whole point of having staff available is to help when there are extremely complex tickets? As it stands it seems that booking staff only want to sell the simplest of tickets for immediate travel from that specific station, and then only grudgingly.

Given the railway needs to cut costs dramatically, if it's a matter of closing stations or lines, or getting rid of people at Surbiton ticket office, I know where I'd want my tax income to go.



The railway is not a jobs program. Why spend £100k a year subsidising needless jobs at Surbiton (one where the staff member doesn't even sell the ticket asked for) when that £50k could instead employ a nurse or policeman?

What about good ticket staff who do sell tickets the passenger asks for and pull their weight etc? They are more helpful and efficient than machines and websites.

That said I do think a good way to go about redefining the role or redeploying the staff would be to have them looking after the station in general...ie. ticket machine issues, timetable poster displays, cleaning etc.