UK face coverings discussion

[Dave91131]

Two guards’ announcements I heard today:

One stating that people must wear coverings, but that some may be exempt, and exemptions may not be obvious (so far so good). Than a ludicrous invitation to text 61016 if anyone was spotted not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.

One stating that masks must be worn, and that people with exemptions would need to provide an “exemption certificate” to BTP, and offering to give out “spare masks” to passengers.

What an embarrassing, inconsistent, confused mess.

And in addition what better way to make those with genuine exemptions feel unwelcome, nervous, uncomfortable, bullied, fearful of confrontation or worse still arrest, etc.

 

[bramling]

Two guards’ announcements I heard today:

One stating that people must wear coverings, but that some may be exempt, and exemptions may not be obvious (so far so good). Than a ludicrous invitation to text 61016 if anyone was spotted not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.

One stating that masks must be worn, and that people with exemptions would need to provide an “exemption certificate” to BTP, and offering to give out “spare masks” to passengers.

What an embarrassing, inconsistent, confused mess.

Does anyone know how I might go into proper hibernation for a few months?

Seriously, what a complete and utter shambles this has all descended in to. If we can’t be getting basic things like this right then what hope is there?

I think I’m going to go camping and find the most properly remote spot possible!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

And in addition what better way to make those with genuine exemptions feel unwelcome, nervous, uncomfortable, bullied, fearful of confrontation or worse still arrest, etc.

Quite so. Encouraging people to text BTP is simply ridiculous.

Giving it an extreme benefit of the doubt one can only hope the guard was misguidedly doing it knowing that BTP wouldn’t do anything and it avoids people bothering the guard with snitching, or confronting the non-mask-wearers directly.

 

[adc82140]

Why can they not have the same announcement as Red Funnel Ferries, stating that some people are exempt, and that passengers must not challenge those not wearing masks.

 

[scotrail158713]

Why can they not have the same announcement as Red Funnel Ferries, stating that some people are exempt, and that passengers must not challenge those not wearing masks.

Because that requires common sense and being able to follow what the rules actually are - something that many across the country are struggling with.
(Public transport seems to be especially struggling in this aspect though)

 

[philosopher]

I know incidents like this have occurred before, such as the Merseyrail one, however this one on a flight between Jersey and Gatwick seems to be particularly disturbing as the passenger seems to have been goaded by the staff and passengers into wearing one when he was exempt:

Coronavirus: Man with chronic asthma 'forced' to wear mask on plane

EasyJet apologises after one of its pilots was filmed threatening to remove the passenger from the flight.

www.bbc.co.uk

EasyJet has apologised after one of its pilots was filmed threatening to remove the passenger from the flight.

The man was carrying an exemption card - but it was rejected by the crew on his journey from Jersey to Gatwick.

Charities say exemptions must be respected by companies and understood by the public.

 

[adc82140]

I've read that one. If I was him I'd be pursuing a legal claim against Easyjet and individual staff members. The more shocking thing is that Easyjet are unrepentant. Labelling him as "disruptive" because he ratted out their ignorance is low.

 

[duncanp]

This is what happens when you get mask zealots who seem to think that the law about exemptions does not exist.

The law regarding masks (including the bit about exemptions and the fact that you do not need to prove an exemption) is what it is.

It is not what you think it is, nor is it what you think it should be.

What would have happened if the man in this incident had had a full on asthma attack mid flight, caused by him being illegally forced to wear a mask? If that had happened I think the man would have had a case to pursue legal action.

 

[DB]

I know incidents like this have occurred before, such as the Merseyrail one, however this one on a flight between Jersey and Gatwick seems to be particularly disturbing as the passenger seems to have been goaded by the staff and passengers into wearing one when he was exempt:

Coronavirus: Man with chronic asthma 'forced' to wear mask on plane

EasyJet apologises after one of its pilots was filmed threatening to remove the passenger from the flight.

www.bbc.co.uk

Unfortunately this sort of incident was highly predictable, given the hostile messaging from the government and elements in the police, and the strong likelihood that those with authoritarian tendencies would relish getting what they see as some power (even if it's nothing to do with them).

On another point, I walked through the town centre yesterday and the maskivist notices in shop windows do seem to be ramping up - not only does there now seem to be more of them, but they are increasingly peremptory in their demands - e.g. Masks MUST be worn in this shop, or one shops with a blue and white 'Face masks must be worn' sign of the type seen in areas with machine tools and the like. Of course, I didn't see any which mentioned exemptions.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I know incidents like this have occurred before, such as the Merseyrail one, however this one on a flight between Jersey and Gatwick seems to be particularly disturbing as the passenger seems to have been goaded by the staff and passengers into wearing one when he was exempt:

Coronavirus: Man with chronic asthma 'forced' to wear mask on plane

EasyJet apologises after one of its pilots was filmed threatening to remove the passenger from the flight.

www.bbc.co.uk

What is more disturbing is the reaction of other passengers when the pilot says ‘Right, off!’. Cheering and applause from the great unwashed, who see - in their eyes - a granny killer being made to wear a mask. Dumb Britain, 2020

 

[Richard Scott]

What is more disturbing is the reaction of other passengers when the pilot says ‘Right, off!’. Cheering and applause from the great unwashed, who see - in their eyes - a granny killer being made to wear a mask. Dumb Britain, 2020

Another disgraceful show as to how low our country has gone. I do dispair for the future.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The end of compulsory face coverings cannot come soon enough.
Let the Facebook Karens choose to wear a mask if that’s their preference. When people with legitimate health issues are subjected to harassment and public humiliation, even the most pro-mask posters on here should wake up!
It is bad enough the evidence that they work is non-existent. When people are getting abused for legitimate non-wearing, that’s the final straw. As of today, I’m not complying, in any setting

 

[adc82140]

The end of compulsory face coverings cannot come soon enough.
Let the Facebook Karens choose to wear a mask if that’s their preference. When people with legitimate health issues are subjected to harassment and public humiliation, even the most pro-mask posters on here should wake up!
It is bad enough the evidence that they work is non-existent. When people are getting abused for legitimate non-wearing, that’s the final straw. As of today, I’m not complying, in any setting

The masks are theoretically worn to protect others.

Therefore surely we should end the mandation and issue the Karens with free respirators should they want one. Problem solved. They managed to dish them out for free in WW2.

 

[Bantamzen]

The masks are theoretically worn to protect others.

Therefore surely we should end the mandation and issue the Karens with free respirators should they want one. Problem solved. They managed to dish them out for free in WW2.

Funnily enough I was watching a travel vlog last night, and signs at Stanstead Airport repeatedly reminded passengers that masks should be worn for "their own protection". Hmmmm.....

 

[trebor79]

The end of compulsory face coverings cannot come soon enough.
Let the Facebook Karens choose to wear a mask if that’s their preference. When people with legitimate health issues are subjected to harassment and public humiliation, even the most pro-mask posters on here should wake up!
It is bad enough the evidence that they work is non-existent. When people are getting abused for legitimate non-wearing, that’s the final straw. As of today, I’m not complying, in any setting

Ditto. I am not going to override my exemption in future because I can't be bothered with the possibility of hassle. I haven't actually had any hassle, but sometimes I judge it likely and if I'm only going in for a few minutes will don a mask for the time I can bear it.
If shops don't accept my exemption then they won't get an argument from me, but nor will they get any of my spend.

 

[Huntergreed]

I’ve noticed there’s two automated announcements doing the rounds on the network:

You Must wear a face covering whilst on stations and travelling on public transport

And

Please wear a face covering whilst on stations and travelling on public transport, and remember, some passengers may have invisible disabilities or health conditions which may mean they are unable to wear one

The latter, which I think is much better, I’ve heard used across London and in Edinburgh Waverley. The former is still in use in Carlisle (As of now) and some of the other WCML Stations I’ve used recently. It seems clear to me that the second one was recorded in order to have a more appropriate tone and to mention exemptions, and in my opinion it should be used everywhere.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Ditto. I am not going to override my exemption in future because I can't be bothered with the possibility of hassle. I haven't actually had any hassle, but sometimes I judge it likely and if I'm only going in for a few minutes will don a mask for the time I can bear it.
If shops don't accept my exemption then they won't get an argument from me, but nor will they get any of my spend.

And here’s another example of a shop owner refusing to serve a potential customer who claims an exemption. This time, a bakery in the Hangleton area of Brighton:

http://Facebook.com/djrudders3/videos/10164701401340179/

Owner: ‘You’ve got an exemption certificate, have you?’

Customer: ‘I don’t need to carry an exemption certificate’

Owner: ‘Well, I’m not serving you!’

Link to story in local rag
www.theargus.co.uk/news/18703116.coronavirus-man-kicked-bakery-not-wearing-mask/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor

A MAN is furious he was kicked out of a bakery for not wearing a mask.
Tradesman Christopher O’connor entered The Bread Bin in Applesham Avenue, Hangleton, last Thursday.
The Newhaven man said he does not wear masks as he has severe asthma.
But he was told to leave the bakery, near The Grenadier pub, as he could not provide evidence of an exemption.
He said: “I went in to get a coffee and a bit of breakfast.
“I was shocked that he didn’t let me explain myself, I felt quite angry and like I was not welcome in there.

 

[DB]

And here’s another example of a shop owner refusing to serve a potential customer who claims an exemption. This time, a bakery in the Hangleton area of Brighton:

Owner: ‘You’ve got an exemption certificate, have you?’

Customer: ‘I don’t need to carry an exemption certificate’

Owner: ‘Well, I’m not serving you!’

Link to story in local rag

Where do these people get the idea that there is such a thing as an 'exemption certificate'. It doesn't exist!

Crap journalism as well - they don't highlight this point, which they should.

 

[adc82140]

I am so tempted to print out a batch, headed as being from the "Society for Ignorant People", with a made up coat of arms etc.

 

[MikeWM]

Just looking at NRE for the first time in a while. Is it really necessary to have a popup message, plus *two* separate big red sections of the page, all telling me I have to wear a mask, before I can even try to plan a journey? (On the slightly positive side, at least all three messages mention exemptions, and the details on the exemptions page look to be reasonably correct).

 

[VauxhallandI]

This is what happens when you get mask zealots who seem to think that the law about exemptions does not exist.

The law regarding masks (including the bit about exemptions and the fact that you do not need to prove an exemption) is what it is.

It is not what you think it is, nor is it what you think it should be.

What would have happened if the man in this incident had had a full on asthma attack mid flight, caused by him being illegally forced to wear a mask? If that had happened I think the man would have had a case to pursue legal action.

Can you imagine the cost to Easyjet if they had to divert! That would be the only way to make them think about it correctly.

 

[packermac]

I've read that one. If I was him I'd be pursuing a legal claim against Easyjet and individual staff members. The more shocking thing is that Easyjet are unrepentant. Labelling him as "disruptive" because he ratted out their ignorance is low.

Maybe UK airlines should follow the lead of US carriers.
The Americans with Disabilities Act 1990 prohibits discrimination based on disability but Southwest and American have banned any travellers over two unless wearing a mask, Delta say it may take over an hour to prove your exemption prior to travel if you want to fly without a mask.
All a lot more simple, and appears to be done on the basis of protecting the flight attendants, so basically a duty of care to employees defence. Of course easier when airlines are Federal and there is no Federal Law mandating mask wearing in the US.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

Can you imagine the cost to Easyjet if they had to divert! That would be the only way to make them think about it correctly.

Delta returned a flight to Detroit after a passenger refused to wear a masks. I believe they have a very long mask no fly list and another list of over 100 passenger's given a life ban. Jet Blue gave a passenger a life ban for travelling whilst waiting for the result of a covid test

 

[VauxhallandI]

Maybe UK airlines should follow the lead of US carriers.
The Americans with Disabilities Act 1990 prohibits discrimination based on disability but Southwest and American have banned any travellers over two unless wearing a mask, Delta say it may take over an hour to prove your exemption prior to travel if you want to fly without a mask.
All a lot more simple, and appears to be done on the basis of protecting the flight attendants, so basically a duty of care to employees defence. Of course easier when airlines are Federal and there is no Federal Law mandating mask wearing in the US.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==


Delta returned a flight to Detroit after a passenger refused to wear a masks. I believe they have a very long mask no fly list and another list of over 100 passenger's given a life ban. Jet Blue gave a passenger a life ban for travelling whilst waiting for the result of a covid test

I was meaning when they force someone to wear a mask and then they have a medical emergency and they have to divert. That cost would be met by the airline

 

[packermac]

I was meaning when they force someone to wear a mask and then they have a medical emergency and they have to divert. That cost would be met by the airline

As was the cost of diverting back to Detroit in the Delta case.
Airlines always have a number of medical diversions a year although do not normally have to pay a kidnap ransom as we did with one of our B747's that diverted to one of the "stans" (can't remember which), and they demanded a shed load of money to release it and the passengers.

 

[35B]

Ditto. I am not going to override my exemption in future because I can't be bothered with the possibility of hassle. I haven't actually had any hassle, but sometimes I judge it likely and if I'm only going in for a few minutes will don a mask for the time I can bear it.
If shops don't accept my exemption then they won't get an argument from me, but nor will they get any of my spend.

Which is fair - they are allowed (within certain limits) to decide who they will admit, and on what conditions, so have the right to be more restrictive than the mask requirements.

 

[adc82140]

Which is fair - they are allowed (within certain limits) to decide who they will admit, and on what conditions, so have the right to be more restrictive than the mask requirements.

They can't refuse admission on the grounds of a disability, hidden or otherwise.

 

[DB]

Which is fair - they are allowed (within certain limits) to decide who they will admit, and on what conditions, so have the right to be more restrictive than the mask requirements.

But what sort of society is this creating, where this sort of casual bigotry is seemingly becoming acceptable to many?

 

[WelshBluebird]

This may be a controversial statement - but if there weren't selfish idiots going about claiming they have an exemption when in reality they have no real reason why they should have one, then we could all just assume that anyone without a mask is exempt. However that is far from the case and we do have selfish idiots who are claiming they have an exemption for no other reason other than to be selfish (and yes, I know this because I went back home to see my parents for the first time in 7 months a week or so ago and saw people who I know wouldn't have an exemption trying to claim they do, and people wearing masks under their chin and only pulling them up when a member of staff approached, and then pulling it back down afterwards). That isn't to say we should challenge people because of that, but surely the "blame" should be at the idiots and not the people trying to enforce complicated and confusing rules?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This may be a controversial statement - but if there weren't selfish idiots going about claiming they have an exemption when in reality they have no real reason why they should have one, then we could all just assume that anyone without a mask is exempt. However that is far from the case and we do have selfish idiots who are claiming they have an exemption for no other reason other than to be selfish (and yes, I know this because I went back home to see my parents for the first time in 7 months a week or so ago and saw people who I know wouldn't have an exemption trying to claim they do, and people wearing masks under their chin and only pulling them up when a member of staff approached, and then pulling it back down afterwards).

If masks are here for the foreseeable, it probably makes sense to look to introduce a process to get an exemption certificate. It would solve all these arguments. It could be done via GPs over a period of time.

 

[DB]

If masks are here for the foreseeable, it probably makes sense to look to introduce a process to get an exemption certificate. It would solve all these arguments. It could be done via GPs over a period of time.

No it couldn't.

Not all of the exemptions are medical (plus GPs have better things to do).

 

[Yew]

This may be a controversial statement - but if there weren't selfish idiots going about claiming they have an exemption when in reality they have no real reason why they should have one, then we could all just assume that anyone without a mask is exempt. However that is far from the case and we do have selfish idiots who are claiming they have an exemption for no other reason other than to be selfish (and yes, I know this because I went back home to see my parents for the first time in 7 months a week or so ago and saw people who I know wouldn't have an exemption trying to claim they do, and people wearing masks under their chin and only pulling them up when a member of staff approached, and then pulling it back down afterwards). That isn't to say we should challenge people because of that, but surely the "blame" should be at the idiots and not the people trying to enforce complicated and confusing rules?

It's quite amazing that you can see hidden disabilities, you should contact a medical research institute to see if you can train others in this skill.