UK face coverings discussion

[bramling]

The big issue with testing and using measures like positive tests per 100,000 of the population is that thhings are always going to look worse if you ramp testing up. really that raw figure needs to be normalised to take account of the proportion of the population that have actually been tested. Or just report the % positive or whatever.
Same issue with the ever-changing quarantine rules being decided on a threshold of 20 per 100,000. I think in time tourist dependant economies will latch onto that and quietly reduce the volume of testing to make it less likely they breach that arbitrary threshold.

And in all of this... People aren't actually getting ill in serious numbers. My reaction to the current panic about lots of young people testing positive is "so what?" They aren't ill, they likely won't get ill and almost certainly won't die. Older folk tend not to go to banging house parties and raves. It's time people were trusted to make their own decisions about whether they should see their relatives etc.

The current old vs young narrative which the government seems to be gently pushing, and which people and the media seem to have been only too happy to latch on to, is really not helpful.

Younger people have already been heavily disrupted by this, and in some case with severe lasting effects (for example exams). The more this ugly narrative is pushed the more it will be counter-productive IMO.

 

[trebor79]

Very high compliance around here (south Norfolk). The large Tesco at Thetford most staff do not wear masks, but in our local Sainsbury's most do.
It's unusual to see someone unmasked in the Tesco, almost unknown in the Sainsbury's.
I am exempt and don't generally wear one in Tesco but tend to in Sainsbury's as you have to run the gauntlet of the staff member at the door. I general just pop in for a few bits and pieces so can just about bear to wear one for those few minutes. I am starting to feel more anxious each time though, and find myself wondering what the point of stressing myself out is given the real world experience seems to back up the expert opinions that they don't work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

The current old vs young narrative which the government seems to be gently pushing, and which people and the media seem to have been only too happy to latch on to, is really not helpful.

Younger people have already been heavily disrupted by this, and in some case with severe lasting effects (for example exams). The more this ugly narrative is pushed the more it will be counter-productive IMO.

I completely agree that the way the young versus old narrative is being spun is absolutely disgusting.
What I'm trying to say is that there just shouldn't be a huge panic about younger people being infected. In fact it's a good things they will become immune and therefore make it harder for the virus to circulate and "kill your granny" (to quote the execrable Matt Hancock) on future.

 

[adc82140]

The big issue with testing and using measures like positive tests per 100,000 of the population is that thhings are always going to look worse if you ramp testing up. really that raw figure needs to be normalised to take account of the proportion of the population that have actually been tested. Or just report the % positive or whatever.
Same issue with the ever-changing quarantine rules being decided on a threshold of 20 per 100,000. I think in time tourist dependant economies will latch onto that and quietly reduce the volume of testing to make it less likely they breach that arbitrary threshold.

And in all of this... People aren't actually getting ill in serious numbers. My reaction to the current panic about lots of young people testing positive is "so what?" They aren't ill, they likely won't get ill and almost certainly won't die. Older folk tend not to go to banging house parties and raves. It's time people were trusted to make their own decisions about whether they should see their relatives etc.

Forgive me for stereotyping here, but also kids going to bangin' house parties (innit) are also less likely to go round to granny's for afternoon tea the next day.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Wear a lanyard/card. That's what I do and there is nothing the goons at the supermarket door can do about it

 

[DB]

One thing that I spotted was that shortly after (or maybe just before, around the same time anyway!) it seemed like my local supermarket abandoned the steps they had been taking up until then to encourage social distancing. No more limit on the number of people in the store. No more one way system. Floor signage removed (though still some signs around). Etc etc. I have a sample size of one to play with here(!) but I wonder if other supermarkets were similar?

The big Tesco near to me abandoned the whole queueing, one way systems, etc a few weeks before the mask mandate, and people were still keeping distance. It was really noticeable that as soon as the mask mandate came in, people stopped keeping distance.

The staff in said Tesco were mostly not wearing masks up until the point they were mandated. The first week most were, but after that it went back to hardly any of them again - no doubt they found them thoroughly unpleasant to wear for a whole shift. Does rather demonstrate that people mostly don't want to wear them and only do if they feel they have to!

 

[MikeWM]

Wear a lanyard/card. That's what I do and there is nothing the goons at the supermarket door can do about it

Agreed - I've made my own card and stuck it to the back of my phone case, to show if challenged. It was simple and effective when challenged when going into Morrisons at the weekend (perhaps confirming the social media consensus that Morrisons are being more aggressive about policing masks than other supermarkets - I've not been asked at all yet in my local Tescos or Sainsburys). Also when trying to go into Chapelfield shopping centre in Norwich.

I understand people not wanting to wear something openly - in that case having a card to show on demand seems like a good middle ground. I'd note that the other argument in favour of openly wearing a lanyard is that it alerts others to the fact that exemptions exist and may be something for them to investigate.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think the messaging is just so unclear.

The initial full-on lockdown was reasonably clear - except for those who took the trouble to read between the lines ie the difference between political soundbites, publicised rules and the actual law.

Since then, various activities were released from lockdown in dribs and drabs, with some reversals en-route, and some activities released but with tighter restrictions eg open but only with face-coverings. Then we have the 15 minutes and 2m, or 1m+, or 1m, with or without face-covering. Plus the punters have to cover up but the staff don't. And so on.

Add in a few randomly chosen local lockdowns, with areas drifting in and out, but where the lockdown is actually nothing of the sort compared with the original full-on lockdown but you would think so from the media hype.

Now we have Caerphilly where, presumably, trains (and through buses) will be sealed to prevent anyone entering or leaving the borough.

The PHE intervention steps seem quite clear (watch list, support etc) but no-one except the public health bods seem to really mention them or use them as a basis for the type of restrictions to be placed upon the public. I say link those clear PHE steps with clear expectations of public behaviour for each level. Ensure that is properly messaged. A tweet and a facebook post does not a public information campaign make!

I get the feeling that large numbers of people thought it was all over once full-on lockdown ended and then pubs re-opened.

I hope people enjoyed their summer of sun, fun and freedom.

Personally, I'm waiting for my second letter from Boris to tell me it's now OK to have a life.

 

[Domh245]

My view is that in any event since the number of infections figure here in the UK is bogus because if the same person has multiple tests each test is counted as a distinct case within those figures

They aren't.

From the Gov data dashboard

Daily and cumulative numbers of cases
Number of people with at least one lab-confirmed positive COVID-19 antigen test result.

COVID-19 cases are identified by taking specimens from people and sending these specimens to laboratories around the UK to be tested for COVID-19 antigens. If the test is positive, this is a referred to as a lab-confirmed case. If a person has had more than one positive test they are only counted as one case.

my emphasis

And in all of this... People aren't actually getting ill in serious numbers. My reaction to the current panic about lots of young people testing positive is "so what?" They aren't ill, they likely won't get ill and almost certainly won't die. Older folk tend not to go to banging house parties and raves. It's time people were trusted to make their own decisions about whether they should see their relatives etc.

The young people themselves won't get ill, but they pass it onto their parents, who then pass it on to their colleagues, who then pass it on to their relatives, etc etc.

Younger people have already been heavily disrupted by this, and in some case with severe lasting effects (for example exams). The more this ugly narrative is pushed the more it will be counter-productive IMO.

I'll agree with you there! Heavily disrupted, affected, and now blamed for something of little consequence to themselves to protect pensioners (who then screw them over with other decisions and events!) It's little wonder people are fed up

 

[trebor79]

The young people themselves won't get ill, but they pass it onto their parents, who then pass it on to their colleagues, who then pass it on to their relatives, etc etc.

As I said people - young, old, fit, unwell - need to be trusted and allowed to make their own personal decisions. Government should be putting in place things to help people do that.
Clear information about who is "at risk" (not the blanket covering almost everyone over the age of X, or having had almost any condition imaginable. Who is actually "at risk").
Supporting the at risk people. So ditch the stupid face covering law which protects nobody, and provide free respirators for those who actually need to be protected in enclosed spaces. Free home shopping deliveries (person pays for the shopping but the delivery element is free).
A proper programme to improve the fitness and well-being of the population, to make us less susceptible to covid and other diseases.
Etc. What we have at the moment is a total mess. People can't live normal lives and the at risk really are at risk whilst the chancellor spunks a billion quid providing discounted Big Macs for a month.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Perhaps mischievously I'm wonder if the recent rise in new infections might actually be due to people wearing masks and that they're doing more harm than good. If you think about it, wearing a damp piece of cloth over your nose and mouth that, over the course of your day, has the potential to collect germs and droplets of the virus from people around you, which you then breathe in must surely have some negative effect?

 

[Huntergreed]

Just found this very disheartening quote from the Welsh health minister, Vaughan Gething:

"If things deteriorate faster we may have to take more measures," he added, saying he "won't hesitate" to make it mandatory to wear face-coverings across Wales if necessary.

(https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54064915)

Presumably this means masks would be mandated outdoors? If this is the case, I’ll be extremely angry if this goes through and will not hesitate to be very vocally opposed to a ridiculous measure which has no scientific bearing behind it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd forgotten that Wales didn't mandate masks yet. How's its curve comparing with England's? Other measures are I think similar at present.

 

[trebor79]

I'd forgotten that Wales didn't mandate masks yet. How's its curve comparing with England's? Other measures are I think similar at present.

I posted upthread a graph from the BBC showing estimated R values for the various regions of the UK. Scotland was highest, Wales lowest with England in the middle. So R highest in mask obsessed Scotland and lowest in Wales with no masks mandated in shops. I'll see if I can find it again.
Edit: found it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

Perhaps mischievously I'm wonder if the recent rise in new infections might actually be due to people wearing masks and that they're doing more harm than good. If you think about it, wearing a damp piece of cloth over your nose and mouth that, over the course of your day, has the potential to collect germs and droplets of the virus from people around you, which you then breathe in must surely have some negative effect?

That's my view. I hate "face coverings" in everyday settings. They are disgustingly unhygienic. The real world (as opposed to fantasy politician world) experience seems to bear this out.

 

[bramling]

Just found this very disheartening quote from the Welsh health minister, Vaughan Gething:



(https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54064915)

Presumably this means masks would be mandated outdoors? If this is the case, I’ll be extremely angry if this goes through and will not hesitate to be very vocally opposed to a ridiculous measure which has no scientific bearing behind it.

That will be my holiday cancelled for sure.

I do get the feeling the politicians are becoming increasingly desperate. Unfortunately masks appears to increasingly be the first thing on the shelf, despite the fact that they appear to be doing no good at all, in fact on the contrary.

I suspect if the current “trend” goes on we will see masks mandated outdoors. That really will be time to protest, and the police won’t have the resources to deal with it.

 

[MikeWM]

Probably shouldn't have mentioned yesterday that I was thinking about a couple of days in Wales later this month! Oh well, time to come up with plan 'F'.

 

[trebor79]

I suspect if the current “trend” goes on we will see masks mandated outdoors. That really will be time to protest, and the police won’t have the resources to deal with it.

I shall never wear a mask outdoors. Never.

In an obtuse way I might welcome such a move. It will prevent me from feeling pressured to override my exemption and put one on in certain shops, as I'll already be the odd one out and bare-faced in the car park. I'll just excercise my exemption full time.
Secondly, it might encourage a few more people to realise that this is all nonsense and that we just have to accept the strategy is wrong. We cannot hold it back from the general population, that will eventually fail and be bad for the vulnerable. Efforts should be being expended upon truly protecting the vulnerable, not this constant navel gazing at all of these asymptomatic "cases" amogst young healthy people who are not actually unwell.
I see in that article he raised the spectre of another national lockdown for Wales. Completely bonkers.

 

[Scrotnig]

Just found this very disheartening quote from the Welsh health minister, Vaughan Gething:



(https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-54064915)

Presumably this means masks would be mandated outdoors? If this is the case, I’ll be extremely angry if this goes through and will not hesitate to be very vocally opposed to a ridiculous measure which has no scientific bearing behind it.

I think he means in shops. They are not manadatory in shops in Wales yet, but they have just made them so in Caerphilly. I think he's saying they may mandate them in shops across Wales.

 

[Huntergreed]

I think he means in shops. They are not manadatory in shops in Wales yet, but they have just made them so in Caerphilly. I think he's saying they may mandate them in shops across Wales.

Whilst I certainly still don’t think it’s a good idea, that’s certainly not as bad as I thought. I do feel for those affected by these “local lockdowns”, they seem to gradually be getting harsher each time.

 

[adc82140]

I think the Welsh were the only ones to have travel limits set in law anyway back in April, so it's not surprising they've done it again in Caerphilly

 

[greyman42]

In York this morning in Tesco’s near the college I would say a good third of the students were not wearing masks or were challenged. At York station in the afternoon a significant were not wearing masks - whilst some may be exempt and had the hidden disabilities lanyard, some clearly were not exempt and just could not be bothered. At Tesco’s not at the station where there were police no one was challenged. This is not going to give confidence to anyone who is vulnerable or just plain nervous at going out.

What makes you think that people are nervous about going out? People need to start getting on with their lives and stop worrying about whether others are masked or unmasked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

A member of staff there told me that some facebook Karens had complained to the Council that the shop staff were not wearing masks and an official had visited to investigate.

What would be the point in the official visiting when they know that shop staff do not have to wear masks? It sounds like a complete waste of time to me.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What makes you think that people are nervous about going out? People need to start getting on with their lives and stop worrying about whether others are masked or unmasked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2020 ==

I see first-hand that some people are nervous about going out. Some have irrational fears about the big bad virus. I see and treat people every day who are nervous about coming out on public transport. Some have not been out since the end of March

But many people can see what a nonsense this all is and are simply getting on with trying to lead a normal life

 

[Scrotnig]

I see first-hand that some people are nervous about going out. Some have irrational fears about the big bad virus. I see and treat people every day who are nervous about coming out on public transport. Some have not been out since the end of March

But many people can see what a nonsense this all is and are simply getting on with trying to lead a normal life

I'm not scared of the virus particularly, beyond being sensible about it. However I'm not going on public transport, or going to shops, because I either have to wear a mask, or run the gauntlet of vigilante types / bullies etc.

 

[DB]

I see first-hand that some people are nervous about going out. Some have irrational fears about the big bad virus. I see and treat people every day who are nervous about coming out on public transport. Some have not been out since the end of March

A lot of them are going to be terrified with or without masks, though!

 

[kristiang85]

Perhaps mischievously I'm wonder if the recent rise in new infections might actually be due to people wearing masks and that they're doing more harm than good. If you think about it, wearing a damp piece of cloth over your nose and mouth that, over the course of your day, has the potential to collect germs and droplets of the virus from people around you, which you then breathe in must surely have some negative effect?

Oh indeed that is true; hence why the advice says masks should be replaced every 4 hours.

Obviously very few do this though...

 

[Richard Scott]

That's my view. I hate "face coverings" in everyday settings. They are disgustingly unhygienic. The real world (as opposed to fantasy politician world) experience seems to bear this out.

Unfortunately our politicians don't seem to live in the real world.

 

[43066]

Two guards’ announcements I heard today:

One stating that people must wear coverings, but that some may be exempt, and exemptions may not be obvious (so far so good). Than a ludicrous invitation to text 61016 if anyone was spotted not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.

One stating that masks must be worn, and that people with exemptions would need to provide an “exemption certificate” to BTP, and offering to give out “spare masks” to passengers.

What an embarrassing, inconsistent, confused mess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why I wonder does RDG not come up with a standard announcement script and TOCs mandate it?

 

[DB]

Why I wonder does RDG not come up with a standard announcement script and TOCs mandate it?

Indeed - that would resolve the issue of a proportion of railway staff seemingly making up their own rules!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - that would resolve the issue of a proportion of railway staff seemingly making up their own rules!

They managed it for the "3 Ss" where the same script is basically used everywhere.

 

[yorkie]

Askham Bar Tesco’s (York) just after 8am will show you what I mean!

Is there a time in the afternoon when this phenomenon can be observed?

I very rarely see anyone in Morrisons or my local CoOp without a face covering; either exempt people rarely choose to shop at these stores, or wear a face covering anyway.