Could more HSTs be converted and adapted to remain in service?

[Masbroughlad]

If it is cost justifiable to run adapted HSTs for some time to come. Why haven't more been converted and kept in service?

Short-formed, there are many routes they could be used on. And XC are happy to carry on using them, fully formed.

Am I missing something?! (Probably!)

TPE are sorted, unless they inherit Liverpool to Nottingham.
Nottingham-Leeds-Carlisle
Manchester - Cardiff

Or full sets for a new OA operator?

Can the short sets run at 125 mph?

I know it is all down to markets and profit, but a more strategic overview of stock utilisation would seem sensible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Liverpool to Nottingham is staying with EMR for the foreseeable future, so definitely no chance with TPE.

The power door fitting isn't an easy job by all accounts, the cost of new build stock has come down in real terms so there's less of an incentive to look for cheaper alternatives. Short sets are restricted in speed I believe due to a lack of brake force, but in any case neither the GWR or Scotrail sets run on lines with speeds in excess of 100mph.

 

[43096]

Short sets are restricted in speed I believe

They’re not.

 

[bussikuski179]

Yeah, they mostly just don’t run on 125mph routes.

 

[adc82140]

Disregarding driver route competencies etc is there any technical reason why GWR couldn't lash a 2+8 HST together using the sliding door stock and run a 125mph express in to Paddington?

 

[37424]

Disregarding driver route competencies etc is there any technical reason why GWR couldn't lash a 2+8 HST together using the sliding door stock and run a 125mph express in to Paddington?

No but why would they when they have just got a fleet of new trains to replace the HST's.

If it is cost justifiable to run adapted HSTs for some time to come. Why haven't more been converted and kept in service?

Short-formed, there are many routes they could be used on. And XC are happy to carry on using them, fully formed.

Am I missing something?! (Probably!)

TPE are sorted, unless they inherit Liverpool to Nottingham.
Nottingham-Leeds-Carlisle
Manchester - Cardiff

Or full sets for a new OA operator?

Can the short sets run at 125 mph?

I know it is all down to markets and profit, but a more strategic overview of stock utilisation would seem sensible.

The Short HST's are GWR's solution to a shortage of Regional DMU's but they are likely to be expensive to run at the side of a pair of 158's presumably when replacements for GWR's older DMU fleet are needed a replacement for the HST's will be considered as well.

In terms of a choice as already suggested they are not easy to modify and have taken far longer to do than the original planned timescale, even if TPE had got Nottingham Liverpool the likely motive power would have been the spare 185's or the Loco Hauled sets with a backfill of the spare 185's certainly not HST's. XC didn't really have much choice with re-let of the franchise being postponed where new rolling stock could be proposed and the 2020 PRM deadline approaching. XC may become a 22x dumping ground in the next few years and the HST got rid of.

Scotrail choose them as an Intercity solution whether that was a good choice remains to be seen while they are good trains they carn't go on forever and if anything comes out of the Stonehaven Incident to suggest that newer stock might have had better survivability that might speed up their exit.

Tfw could have chosen short HST sets for Manchester- Cardiff but they choose new DMU's instead.

 

[tbtc]

The question for HSTs is whether TOCs will still be keen on them once a decent number of 90/100mph trains are freed up elsewhere (Midlands 158s, Welsh 175s, 158s from Oop North etc)

XC are happy to carry on using them, fully formed

Are they "happy" to use them, or is it more a case of "there aren't enough Voyagers available to fit XC's paths, so they have to resort to patched up HSTs for now, but will likely drop them once Avanti and EMR get new trains and XC can pick up some other 22xs"?

Nottingham-Leeds-Carlisle

What Nottingham - Leeds - Carlisle service?

Or is this a case of "invent a new service to justify keeping old trains in operation(along with your suggestion of new OAO)?

Manchester - Cardiff

...which the Wales & Borders franchise is ordering brand new trains for?

 

[YorksLad12]

What Nottingham - Leeds - Carlisle service?

Or is this a case of "invent a new service to justify keeping old trains in operation(along with your suggestion of new OAO)?

One journey in each direction on Sundays (the Nottingham - Leeds section not currently running at all). If an HST it would come in from the south, reverse on 8 or 9 and then head north, taking its merry time to cross the station throat compared to a two-carriage Super Sprinter... not good.

 

[mildertduck]

This might be a silly question, but could the HST power cars run with MK4 coaches, as there are certainly a fair few of those lying around?

 

[JonathanH]

This might be a silly question, but could the HST power cars run with MK4 coaches, as there are certainly a fair few of those lying around?

Not immediately, the power cars and Mk 4 coaches don't have consistent electric supply. Some of the Mk 4s have been scrapped.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Well technically yes. But practically no. A short-formed HST is not exactly the most efficient solution out there. The economics were designed around a 7 or 8 car set, and even then in pre-petrol crisis (which occurred about 1 year prior to the delivery of the first sets), pro-environmental times. Whilst the sets were indeed well future-proofed and can still hold their own a 4-car set would not.

 

[Journeyman]

Not this old chestnut again. Can we please just accept that the HSTs have had their day?

 

[py_megapixel]

Not this old chestnut again. Can we please just accept that the HSTs have had their day?

It seems that some people are simply unwilling to accept this... I've seen comments on YouTube stating that "if you don't like HSTs then you can't truly like trains!" (though I'm sure OP isn't quite this attached to them, or indeed anybody else on this thread, but some people clearly are)

 

[HST43257]

Personally I feel like soon their time doing passenger services may be up, though I have wondered for a while if they could have a future in the intermodal freight market. However this would only be possible if a way could be found to make it so containers can do more than 75mph. If this could be made possible, it would be good to see DRS take out some of their 66s in favour of the HSTs, though in the longer term I’d like to see a proper bi-mode (not last mile) freight locomotime than can also travel up to speeds of 125mph.

 

[JonathanH]

Personally I feel like soon their time doing passenger services may be up, though I have wondered for a while if they could have a future in the intermodal freight market. However this would only be possible if a way could be found to make it so containers can do more than 75mph. If this could be made possible, it would be good to see DRS take out some of their 66s in favour of the HSTs, though in the longer term I’d like to see a proper bi-mode (not last mile) freight locomotime than can also travel up to speeds of 125mph.

The constraint on containers is likely to be the diameter of the wheels to make the wagons fit our loading gauge and the turbulence created by their passing through platforms, otherwise electrically hauled container trains would already be going more than 75 mph. Replacing 66s with HST powercars is unlikely to be the answer. It has been pointed out before that 75mph freight fits in relatively well between stopping services on mixed traffic routes such as the WCML slow lines.

We don't currently have the wagons or coaching stock suitable for smaller roller cages of the sort envisaged for the 319 conversion. It seems that 319/769 is considered more appropriate for that in any case.

 

[Journeyman]

It seems that some people are simply unwilling to accept this... I've seen comments on YouTube stating that "if you don't like HSTs then you can't truly like trains!" (though I'm sure OP isn't quite this attached to them, or indeed anybody else on this thread, but some people clearly are)

After the Stonehaven accident, I was horrified to see some people more worried about the fate of the vehicles involved, than the people in them.

 

[The Planner]

Personally I feel like soon their time doing passenger services may be up, though I have wondered for a while if they could have a future in the intermodal freight market. However this would only be possible if a way could be found to make it so containers can do more than 75mph. If this could be made possible, it would be good to see DRS take out some of their 66s in favour of the HSTs, though in the longer term I’d like to see a proper bi-mode (not last mile) freight locomotime than can also travel up to speeds of 125mph.

A Mk3 weighs around 35t? So an HST is pulling 280t at best on a passenger set, not sure that translates into pulling a 1600t intermodal!

 

[Journeyman]

A Mk3 weighs around 35t? So an HST is pulling 280t at best on a passenger set, not sure that translates into pulling a 1600t intermodal!

Yup. Max tractive effort of an HST power car is 80kN, continuous is 46kN. Class 66 409kN max, 260 continuous.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If I'm honest, it's difficult isn't it - most trains the age of the HST's would be eliminated from passenger service by now but I feel they're still providing modern InterCity train travel and excellent stress-free experiences.

Personally, the XC ones should only be replaced when a suitable replacement can be found - I can't see the Avanti Voyagers being a particularly good one.

 

[Journeyman]

If I'm honest, it's difficult isn't it - most trains the age of the HST's would be eliminated from passenger service by now but I feel they're still providing modern InterCity train travel and excellent stress-free experiences.

I don't think it's difficult at all. They're 40+ years old, can't operate beyond current derogations without expensive and complex rebuilds, they're expensive to operate, polluting, and largely surplus to requirements. However good they were in the past, most no longer have a use, and there's no point desperately trying to find excuses for expensive micro-fleets with no sensible justification.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't think it's difficult at all. They're 40+ years old, can't operate beyond current derogations without expensive and complex rebuilds, they're expensive to operate, polluting, and largely surplus to requirements. However good they were in the past, most no longer have a use, and there's no point desperately trying to find excuses for expensive micro-fleets with no sensible justification.

I think you've summed that up pretty well to be honest.

Pretty much every route in the country has a more modern fleet, either in service or on order, than the HSTs. The routes that they remain on - XC, GW and ScotRail - are ones which aren't considered to justify a new fleet, but still needed an upgrade, and for that purpose they're fine - but I don't think there's much room for them elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, they're fantastic trains. But by modern standards, they aren't really anything special, and at 40 years old I think they've probably had their day.

 

[Journeyman]

Don't get me wrong, they're fantastic trains. But by modern standards, they aren't really anything special, and at 40 years old I think they've probably had their day.

Absolutely. They were BR's greatest success, but things change, and they were never perfect anyway. The slam doors were a major design flaw, and the ride was never as good as most people claim it is.

 

[Sean Davidson]

Could HSTs be used on Hastings - Rye - Ashford - Maidstone - London so Marsh Link passengers could at last have a direct fast service without having to change at Ashford?

 

[Journeyman]

Could HSTs be used on Hastings - Rye - Ashford - Maidstone - London so Marsh Link passengers could at last have a direct fast service without having to change at Ashford?

Please tell me you're not being serious!!!!

 

[py_megapixel]

Could HSTs be used on Hastings - Rye - Ashford - Maidstone - London so Marsh Link passengers could at last have a direct fast service without having to change at Ashford?

That's a rather large amount of running under the wires. (Or rather, over the rails. but that has the wrong implication)

 

[DB]

I don't think it's difficult at all. They're 40+ years old, can't operate beyond current derogations without expensive and complex rebuilds, they're expensive to operate, polluting, and largely surplus to requirements. However good they were in the past, most no longer have a use, and there's no point desperately trying to find excuses for expensive micro-fleets with no sensible justification.

They all had new engines not much more than a decade ago so are a lot less polluting than many diesels out there. Presumably on thus basis you think a large proportion of DMUs should also be scrapped?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==

A Mk3 weighs around 35t? So an HST is pulling 280t at best on a passenger set, not sure that translates into pulling a 1600t intermodal!

Indeed. Some people don't seem to get this! What is effectively a single cabbed loco geared for fast but relatively light trains is not of much use as a general-purpose freight loco.

67s have the same problem, albeit to a lesser extent.

 

[Royston Vasey]

After the Stonehaven accident, I was horrified to see some people more worried about the fate of the vehicles involved, than the people in them.

I half expected that but certainly the thread on this forum had no such sentiments.

 

[Class465pacer]

Could HSTs be used on Hastings - Rye - Ashford - Maidstone - London so Marsh Link passengers could at last have a direct fast service without having to change at Ashford?

If you want direct services from Marshlink to London you would want tri mode 769s as the most convenient and environmentally friendly option.

 

[py_megapixel]

If you want direct services from Marshlink to London you would want tri mode 769s as the most convenient and environmentally friendly option.

Oh no, but that's the south!!! We can't put older rolling stock in service in the south!!!

In all seriousness yes, that would probably be the best solution.

 

[Journeyman]

I half expected that but certainly the thread on this forum had no such sentiments.

I saw numerous examples.