Holbeck Viaduct.

[Railwaysceptic]

Holbeck Viaduct has been unused for decades and there are now plans to convert it into some kind of green, inner city open space. This YouTube video

gives the background.

As several posts in various threads in this forum assert that the routes into Leeds are congested, is it certain the railway will never need this viaduct again?

 

[quantinghome]

It might be useful as part of NPR. The option to bring it back into service is mentioned in Network Rail's recent Leeds Area Strategic Study, but would only required by 2043. However, as with all unused rail alignments, just because it was used in the past doesn't mean it's useful now. If a scheme comes along that happens to go along the same route, great.

Anyway, turning it into a footpath / cycleway type thing at least means it will be maintained rather than fall into dereliction. Nothing to stop it being turned back into a railway in the future.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

It might be useful as part of NPR. The option to bring it back into service is mentioned in Network Rail's recent Leeds Area Strategic Study, but would only required by 2043. However, as with all unused rail alignments, just because it was used in the past doesn't mean it's useful now. If a scheme comes along that happens to go along the same route, great.

Anyway, turning it into a footpath / cycleway type thing at least means it will be maintained rather than fall into dereliction. Nothing to stop it being turned back into a railway in the future.

Thanks for that.

I'm not as confident as you are it will easy to convert it back into a railway route after it's been used for years as something else. When Barbara Castle authorised the ending of rail services between Matlock and Buxton, she stipulated that the route must be preserved to enable a possible future restoration of services. Any attempt to do that now would meet fierce opposition. In London the Northern Heights route between Highgate and Finsbury Park has been turned into a footpath and woe betide anyone daring to suggest it might again be used for public transport.

 

[YorksLad12]

This comes up once in a while as a High Line-style project. That no-one wants to pay for.

If I recall the viaduct would need a huge amount of work to bring it up to rail standards. Those trees in that video will be doing a lot of damage to the structure. It would need to be electrified. And it comes in where the Sheffield stoppers do, at 17, so there would be movements across the station throat to consider. Then you'd have to find somewhere for the existing equipment.

I'm not saying it would never happen, but...

 

[MarkyT]

It might be useful as part of NPR. The option to bring it back into service is mentioned in Network Rail's recent Leeds Area Strategic Study, but would only required by 2043. However, as with all unused rail alignments, just because it was used in the past doesn't mean it's useful now. If a scheme comes along that happens to go along the same route, great.

Anyway, turning it into a footpath / cycleway type thing at least means it will be maintained rather than fall into dereliction. Nothing to stop it being turned back into a railway in the future.

For mainline use, the alignment is poor with a horrible reverse transition on the viaduct and very tight curves at the east end. If you want to create the means for express trains to get from the Dewsbury line to the south side of Leeds station for York avoiding conflicts with other traffic, then a new optimised flyover specifically created using modern standards for that functionality would probably be better value. As a potential segregated alignment for a new light rail route from the west to approach the main station and city centre however, the old viaduct line has more promise.

 

[ainsworth74]

If I recall the viaduct would need a huge amount of work to bring it up to rail standards. Those trees in that video will be doing a lot of damage to the structure. It would need to be electrified. And it comes in where the Sheffield stoppers do, at 17, so there would be movements across the station throat to consider. Then you'd have to find somewhere for the existing equipment.

Yes it drops onto the wrong line really doesn't it? If it carried on over the ECML and hitched onto the TP mainline it would be much more useful as it would help segregate that traffic a bit better on the approach to Leeds as the only significant clash would be with platform 17 as it would be a straight shot into 15 and 16 from that viaduct. But getting it to the TP mainline involves a new bridge over the ECML and compulsory purchase of several business and you still need to recondition the structure which I'm sure would be a massive undertaking before trying to do anything extravagant like taking it somewhere useful.

Holbeck viaduct is one of those things that is very very alluring because it's right there and Leeds is congested. But I'm not sure that it actually has a future as a piece of railway infrastructure.

Edit: Thinking about it, I think historically it did connect to the line through Dewsbury rather than the ECML. Presumably when it finally fell into disuse they just cut it back to where it currently sits just short of the ECML?

Further edit: Clearly I should finish my Googling before posting

So yes historically it was connected to Dewsbury but it appears that in the 1960s it was changed so that it connected onto the ECML instead becoming the main route into Leeds for London trains. A situation which continued until the late 80s when it was deemed unsuitable for electrification and then fell into disuse.

 

[MarkyT]

Yes it drops onto the wrong line really doesn't it? If it carried on over the ECML and hitched onto the TP mainline it would be much more useful as it would help segregate that traffic a bit better on the approach to Leeds as the only significant clash would be with platform 17 as it would be a straight shot into 15 and 16 from that viaduct. But getting it to the TP mainline involves a new bridge over the ECML and compulsory purchase of several business and you still need to recondition the structure which I'm sure would be a massive undertaking before trying to do anything extravagant like taking it somewhere useful.

Holbeck viaduct is one of those things that is very very alluring because it's right there and Leeds is congested. But I'm not sure that it actually has a future as a piece of railway infrastructure.

Edit: Thinking about it, I think historically it did connect to the line through Dewsbury rather than the ECML. Presumably when it finally fell into disuse they just cut it back to where it currently sits just short of the ECML?

Further edit: Clearly I should finish my Googling before posting

So yes historically it was connected to Dewsbury but it appears that in the 1960s it was changed so that it connected onto the ECML instead becoming the main route into Leeds for London trains. A situation which continued until the late 80s when it was deemed unsuitable for electrification and then fell into disuse.

Indeed, this map shows it was part of the LNWR - the 'Wortley and Leeds Line', and had no connection to the GNR 'West Yorkshire Railway' at their intersection originally, something that must have been added later (not until late BR era according to other maps).

View map: Ordnance Survey, Yorkshire CCXVIII.5 (Leeds) - Ordnance Survey 25 inch England and Wales, 1841-1952

maps.nls.uk

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed, this map shows it was part of the LNWR - the 'Wortley and Leeds Line', and had no connection to the GNR 'West Yorkshire Railway' at their intersection originally, something that must have been added later (not until late BR era according to other maps).

View map: Ordnance Survey, Yorkshire CCXVIII.5 (Leeds) - Ordnance Survey 25 inch England and Wales, 1841-1952

maps.nls.uk

Ah yes there we go (I used the Railway Clearing House map on Wikipedia but that's clearer). There a map here which is titled OS Plan 1972 - 1986 which clearly shows the deviation and the abandonment of the section between the ECML and the Dewsbury lines. There's also a 1981 map which shows the same thing on that site.

 

[BrianW]

Leaving aside that the video would have benefited from some editing, I see an 'answer' looking for a problem. Best I can see is a wholesale redevelopment (gentrification?) of an urban wasteland- 'Holbeck Village'?- where the developer (or rather aspirant residents) pay for the prettification via Section 106 or Community Infrastructure Levy, and relocate all those buses. Can't see it as railway again for reasons others have contributed. If more capacity is needed it should go where it should, which will be cheaper and better than resurrecting this. Romantics, dream on ...

 

[Neptune]

I have memories of being stuck on that viaduct awaiting a path arriving back from London. It seemed to create more of a bottleneck.

The Holbeck highline idea has been around for years. Having been on the New York and Paris versions I can’t see the appeal of one in Holbeck myself. It seems like doing it for the sake of it to me. It won’t exactly be as appealing. The urban park on the remains of the Leeds Central viaduct is a much better idea.

 

[quantinghome]

Yes it drops onto the wrong line really doesn't it? If it carried on over the ECML and hitched onto the TP mainline it would be much more useful as it would help segregate that traffic a bit better on the approach to Leeds as the only significant clash would be with platform 17 as it would be a straight shot into 15 and 16 from that viaduct. But getting it to the TP mainline involves a new bridge over the ECML and compulsory purchase of several business and you still need to recondition the structure which I'm sure would be a massive undertaking before trying to do anything extravagant like taking it somewhere useful.

Holbeck viaduct is one of those things that is very very alluring because it's right there and Leeds is congested. But I'm not sure that it actually has a future as a piece of railway infrastructure.

Edit: Thinking about it, I think historically it did connect to the line through Dewsbury rather than the ECML. Presumably when it finally fell into disuse they just cut it back to where it currently sits just short of the ECML?

Further edit: Clearly I should finish my Googling before posting

So yes historically it was connected to Dewsbury but it appears that in the 1960s it was changed so that it connected onto the ECML instead becoming the main route into Leeds for London trains. A situation which continued until the late 80s when it was deemed unsuitable for electrification and then fell into disuse.

It's also interesting to note that the Leeds 1st rebuild in 2002 replicated the original function of the viaduct by creating separate tracks (E & F) for the Dewsbury line into Leeds, but followed the main western approaches rather than bringing the viaduct back into use. You'd have to ask what the purpose of reopening the viaduct would be, if its function is already provided.

 

[YorksLad12]

Ah yes there we go (I used the Railway Clearing House map on Wikipedia but that's clearer). There a map here which is titled OS Plan 1972 - 1986 which clearly shows the deviation and the abandonment of the section between the ECML and the Dewsbury lines. There's also a 1981 map which shows the same thing on that site.

Wasn't it part of the New Line from Huddersfield to Leeds? I knew (or thought I knew) it was originally used as a route to Hudds, but then had the western end changed to attach to the ECML instead. Many, many years ago I'd be on the bus to school in Leeds and we'd often reach Domestic Road (a flyover) at the same time as an HST set was coming in, putting us on the same level and direction for a few feet (and seconds).

The urban park on the remains of the Leeds Central viaduct is a much better idea.

That would be quite odd as well, but a lot shorter and thus easier to manage. You could drive in from Whitehall Road, underneath it to the other side and then walk up the ramp to the smaller viaduct (the access to the Midland route from Central). Wonder who owns it?

 

[Neptune]

That would be quite odd as well, but a lot shorter and thus easier to manage. You could drive in from Whitehall Road, underneath it to the other side and then walk up the ramp to the smaller viaduct (the access to the Midland route from Central). Wonder who owns it?

Not sure who owns it but I have seen plans for it online in the past to link it into the Wellington Place development. It would be an urban park atop the viaduct with lifts and steps up to it and with shops etc.. built into the arches. New residential buildings would be built around it too. It looks a really nice project helping a new urban development have it’s own open spaces. Holbeck viaduct is just trying to find a use for a derelict viaduct that is only going to have a real function at one end (Holbeck urban village) and not a lot in the middle and at the other end.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wasn't it part of the New Line from Huddersfield to Leeds? I knew (or thought I knew) it was originally used as a route to Hudds, but then had the western end changed to attach to the ECML instead. Many, many years ago I'd be on the bus to school in Leeds and we'd often reach Domestic Road (a flyover) at the same time as an HST set was coming in, putting us on the same level and direction for a few feet (and seconds).

Hmm maybe! Here's the map I was referring to:

With the viaduct connecting into a line marked as being "From Dewsbury" but I'm not sure beyond that! It definitely did eventually connect onto the ECML however as seen in the later maps I linked above.

It's a really interesting piece of infrastructure and I can see how in a slightly different universe it would be useful piece of infrastructure but on the railway of 2020 I think it's pretty much done for in railway terms as it would take so much effort to make it useful. Meanwhile, on this idea of some sort of sky based garden, I guess it's a nice idea but it's been kicking around for ages and as yet, no progress...

 

[Neptune]

Holbeck viaduct could be useful if reopened direct from the Dewsbury line. TPE services use that side of the station and it would reduce conflicting moves whilst creating 8 lines in the throat instead of the current 6.

 

[quantinghome]

Holbeck viaduct could be useful if reopened direct from the Dewsbury line. TPE services use that side of the station and it would reduce conflicting moves whilst creating 8 lines in the throat instead of the current 6.

Would it though? The expansion to 6 tracks in the early 2000s has already removed the conflict.

 

[Neptune]

Would it though? The expansion to 6 tracks in the early 2000s has already removed the conflict.

There’s still a major conflict issue with stoppers and late running expresses departing onto F line. If the expresses were moved onto the viaduct line this would help eradicate this to prevent issues further down the line. It would certainly aid flexibility.

 

[ainsworth74]

There’s still a major conflict issue with stoppers and late running expresses departing onto F line. If the expresses were moved onto the viaduct line this would help eradicate this to prevent issues further down the line. It would certainly aid flexibility.

What do you mean by expresses? LNER would conflict even worse if they used this viaduct!

 

[MarkyT]

Holbeck viaduct could be useful if reopened direct from the Dewsbury line. TPE services use that side of the station and it would reduce conflicting moves whilst creating 8 lines in the throat instead of the current 6.

You'd want a new alignment at the east end to actually widen the west throat and get a much smoother faster approach with wider curves and a nicer reverse curve transition. Here's an example in green that doesn't appear to need any residential demolition. Much of the rest of the viaduct and earthworks to the west would probably also need significant refurbishment or reconstruction to be usable, although the alignment appears largely unobstructed currently. At the west end, the bridge under the ECML has been removed and filled in and there are some commercial/industrial premises on the former route.

 

[Neptune]

What do you mean by expresses? LNER would conflict even worse if they used this viaduct!

I was talking about linking the Dewsbury line as originally planned. Expresses would be TPE. It won’t happen obviously as the viaduct is probably too badly deteriorated for rail traffic now. I suspect the best thing for it would be demolition.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The curvature along the viaduct is pretty severe, so whether it was TPE to Huddersfield or LNER to Doncaster using it, the 26m 80x would probably have to crawl at walking pace.

 

[xotGD]

What would be more useful would be removing the conflict between P16 and P17. This doesn't need the viaduct but I doubt that there is sufficient space to achieve this.

 

[YorksLad12]

What would be more useful would be removing the conflict between P16 and P17. This doesn't need the viaduct but I doubt that there is sufficient space to achieve this.

Yup. Route G to separate out the Woodlesford route, proposed and discounted because of the cost. It was fine 20 years ago when set up, but we've now twice as many movements into and out of 17, plus the additional TPE services on 16. In an ideal world you'd move the TPE services onto 12 and 15 using D and E, leaving F for Woodlesford and stoppers via Dewsbury but that just creates problems on the more northerly platforms.

 

[Halifaxlad]

At one time I was in favour of the idea (subject to modifications to the Eastern side similar to MarkT's suggestion) although I think the area that would be required for such a modification is now slowly being built upon in true Leeds style.

If this West Yorkshire/Leeds tram network gets anywhere the straight bit at least is ideally aligned if a tram line was constructed running from Leeds via Lower Wortley - Drighlington to Cleckheaton that could connect up with this proposed tram line between Dewsbury & Bradford using some of the old Spen Valley Line.

 

[Iskra]

An interesting video and it has nicely satisfied my curiosity. It would make a good walkway from the city centre/station out to Elland Road on match day, which could help relieve congestion on the roads as they tend to become clogged with pedestrians as well as cars.