Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

[Meerkat]

Just push it on. That isn't illegal.

Raises a pedantry question. What is the legal definition of driving? Pushing a car would make you ‘in control of it’......

 

[PeterC]

This doesn't solve the problem of parked cars on the pavement obstructing pedestrians...

Which is already illegal but needs a police office to issue a ticket. What the consultation is about is making it an absolute offence, without the need to prove obstruction, which can then be dealt with by civil enforcement.

 

[37424]

I know you're only doing a job and all, but I highly doubt that. If a bin truck or a fire engine can get down the road then so can a long-wheelbase Sprinter. Here some of our buses are long-wheelbase Sprinters and they get down tighter roads than what you see in the tight Yorkshire valleys.

And if you can't park safely without going on a kerb then you shouldn't be parking there. Whether that makes your round sustainable is between you and your employer.



Common law rights are to pass and re-pass, nothing more. Parking is not passing.

Where did I say a fire engine could get through? I have seen a Fire Engine get stuck up one of those streets with the crew manhandling a car out of the way.

I will park where I consider it safe and practical and that on occasions might mean parking on the pavement clearly you want to make life for the delivery driver as difficult as possible I will leave it at that.

It might not be legally acceptable but plenty of DPD and Yodel drivers around where I live leave their vans blocking the road or on double yellows to deliver a parcel... I think they just work on the assumption that the time lost through parking legitimately and walking is a greater value than the cost of the fine, so if they're caught they might as well just pay the fine.

You are permitted to Load and Unload on Double Yellow Lines for a limited period except sometime where there are specific kerbside restrictions.

 

[Vespa]

If there isn't enough room to park on the road and have large vehicles pass, surely the solution is double-yellow lines? This would ensure enough space for all road users - including motorists (motorists like myself).

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We are coming back to the old problem where do you put the displaced cars ?


People will want to park their cars in front of their houses and people like me need a car as I work in an industrial estate where there's no buses at 5am or trains anywhere near, it's not always convenient to carry a family of four in a train paying for 4 train tickets is expensive.

With reduced train lines since the 60s owning a car is a necessity.

 

[37424]

We are coming back to the old problem where do you put the displaced cars ?


People will want to park their cars in front of their houses and people like me need a car as I work in an industrial estate where there's no buses at 5am or trains anywhere near, it's not always convenient to carry a family of four in a train paying for 4 train tickets is expensive.

With reduced train lines since the 60s owning a car is a necessity.

Indeed even in areas with reasonable public transport people who work shifts will need a car because there is no public transport when their shift starts or ends, many of our old houses were built in a era before cars and as such the only reasonable place to park them is in the street, in many cases these houses may be cheaper housing stock for people on lower incomes but yet many on here want to potentially disadvantage these groups further because they have no where else to park their car other than on the street and possibly on the pavement in some cases.

 

[miami]

We are coming back to the old problem where do you put the displaced cars ?

In a car park, on a drive way, etc. etc.

The probelm comes from people either buying a car with nowhere to park it, or buying a house with nowhere to park their existing car.

People want the benefits of a terrace house with no parking (presumably cheaper), but don't want the downsides (no parking).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I will park where I consider it safe and practical and that on occasions might mean parking on the pavement clearly you want to make life for the delivery driver as difficult as possible

It's not about deliberately "making things difficult", any more than the Tesco driver in my photo was clearly not deliberately forcing me into the road with a baby, despite making it difficult and dangerous for me. It wasn't deliberate but the effect of a delivery driver parking on the path was that I had to walk in the middle of the busiest road on the island (the A1!) with a baby.

It's a simple statement of what I believe: if you can't park without being on the pavement then it is not safe for you to park there.

Pavements are for people. And it's not just the immediate obstruction either. Pavements are not designed to take the weight of vans, which is why you get broken paving slabs that pedestrians injure themselves on.

It's unfortunate your employer doesn't give you enough time to deliver parcels safely, and my opinion of the employment practices of courier firms is not high, but that doesn't justify parking unsafely.

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People will want to park their cars in front of their houses

And sometimes they won't be able to. People on red routes or clearways can't. People on streets where all the spaces have gone can't. Life is full of compromises.
It comes back to the same thing: roads are for cars, pavements are for pedestrians.

Where do cars go? Next street, car park, driveway. Plenty of choices.

 

[bluenoxid]

It's not about deliberately "making things difficult", any more than the Tesco driver in my photo was clearly not deliberately forcing me into the road with a baby, despite making it difficult and dangerous for me. It wasn't deliberate but the effect of a delivery driver parking on the path was that I had to walk in the middle of the busiest road on the island (the A1!) with a baby.

It's a simple statement of what I believe: if you can't park without being on the pavement then it is not safe for you to park there.

Pavements are for people. And it's not just the immediate obstruction either. Pavements are not designed to take the weight of vans, which is why you get broken paving slabs that pedestrians injure themselves on.

It's unfortunate your employer doesn't give you enough time to deliver parcels safely, and my opinion of the employment practices of courier firms is not high, but that doesn't justify parking unsafely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2020 ==



And sometimes they won't be able to. People on red routes or clearways can't. People on streets where all the spaces have gone can't. Life is full of compromises.
It comes back to the same thing: roads are for cars, pavements are for pedestrians.

Where do cars go? Next street, car park, driveway. Plenty of choices.

I don’t have a driveway, the next streets also utilise pavement parking to host vehicles and the nearest car park for public use holds eight cars and a bottle bank. The main roads have parking restrictions of double/single yellow.

The pavements are disproportionately wide and have no dropped kerbs at the junctions

I see a number of options

the streets I live on are declared a free for all, which would be 2-14 signs plus the respective legal paper work

pavement parking spaces are marked out, which is paint, resetting some of the kerbstones plus the above

Existing areas of grass verges are turned into parking spaces, which is a lot of money that a council cannot spend on services, plus the above.

I am supportive of reviewing pavement parking but any implementation will have to take place after a review of every street.

 

[Tetchytyke]

pavement parking spaces are marked out, which is paint, resetting some of the kerbstones plus the above

Existing areas of grass verges are turned into parking spaces, which is a lot of money that a council cannot spend on services, plus the above.

I am supportive of reviewing pavement parking but any implementation will have to take place after a review of every street.

I think the system in London is the way forward, where you can only park on pavements where it is expressly permitted. And yes, it would need a review of a street, but local people will largely do it for the council.

You mention grass verges, often these have been churned up because they have been used for parking. Not to mention broken paving stones, I can't be the only one whose injured myself quite badly on broken stones caused by vehicles driving on them.

Marked out spaces would help too, because it clearly gives the limit of the space and would allow pedestrians to pass. People don't normally deliberately block the pavement, it's just inattention, so it gives everyone more certainty.

 

[37424]

You mention grass verges, often these have been churned up because they have been used for parking. Not to mention broken paving stones, I can't be the only one whose injured myself quite badly on broken stones caused by vehicles driving on them.

Marked out spaces would help too, because it clearly gives the limit of the space and would allow pedestrians to pass. People don't normally deliberately block the pavement, it's just inattention, so it gives everyone more certainty.

Verges can get churned up by parked vehicles, but they also get churned by vehicles going onto the verge because its the only way they can get past, quite often to get past a vehicle which hasn't parked on the verge.

It's not about deliberately "making things difficult", any more than the Tesco driver in my photo was clearly not deliberately forcing me into the road with a baby, despite making it difficult and dangerous for me. It wasn't deliberate but the effect of a delivery driver parking on the path was that I had to walk in the middle of the busiest road on the island (the A1!) with a baby.

It's a simple statement of what I believe: if you can't park without being on the pavement then it is not safe for you to park there.

Pavements are for people. And it's not just the immediate obstruction either. Pavements are not designed to take the weight of vans, which is why you get broken paving slabs that pedestrians injure themselves on.

It's unfortunate your employer doesn't give you enough time to deliver parcels safely, and my opinion of the employment practices of courier firms is not high, but that doesn't justify parking unsafely.

I don't work for a courier firm and this job is a semi retirement job not something I have done my whole life. Before I did this job I might have had a similar view to you having lived most of my life in house's and streets with driveways and no real need to park on the road, however since doing this job and seeing the many roads and streets I deliver to I can only conclude that this is and inflexible and impractical solution for many people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Verges can get churned up by parked vehicles, but they also get churned by vehicles going onto the verge because its the only way they can get past, quite often to get past a vehicle which hasn't parked on the verge.

It's illegal to park causing an obstruction. If a vehicle has to leave the road then the parked vehicle is causing an obstruction. If one can't park without causing an obstruction then it's not safe to park.

I grew up in Yorkshire, in the Aire Valley, and some roads are narrow. Both the old terraced lanes and the newer estates' roads. Usually on these roads the paths are very narrow too, which makes parking on the path even more selfish and inconsiderate. I can say for nowt that having to hump a wheelchair or pram into the road, wait for a gap in traffic, walk along the road then hump it back on to the path is not fun.

But it isn't a right to be allowed to park right outside your front door and not everyone will be allowed or able to. Tough.

If a road is very narrow and a path is very wide then there's an obvious solution to widen the road, or at least specifically allow pavement parking as in London. If not, then stay off the path. I'd enforce it with triple-height kerbs that knacker your tyres and suspension if you mount them.

It's a strange attitude that sees blocking a pavement, severely hindering people with mobility problems, as acceptable to avoid a car driver having to walk 100 yards from their car.

 

[miami]

Verges can get churned up by parked vehicles, but they also get churned by vehicles going onto the verge because its the only way they can get past, quite often to get past a vehicle which hasn't parked on the verge.

That's illegal.

I can only conclude that this is and inflexible and impractical solution for many people.

The solution to your delivery problem would be single yellow lines on these roads with say a 30 minute maximum wait time (arguments for 15 minutes of 60 minutes are available)

 

[mmh]

I can say for nowt that having to hump a wheelchair or pram into the road, wait for a gap in traffic, walk along the road then hump it back on to the path is not fun.

Indeed not. Many places don't have a pavement. How do you propose these are dealt with?

But it isn't a right to be allowed to park right outside your front door and not everyone will be allowed or able to. Tough.

It's got nothing to do with being able to park outside your front door. Unless it's private land what you've said goes without saying.

If a road is very narrow and a path is very wide then there's an obvious solution to widen the road. If not, then stay off the path. I'd enforce it with triple-height kerbs that knacker your tyres and suspension if you mount them.

Good to see confirmation that concern for prams and wheelchairs is just a ruse, and the real motive is good old no-nonsense spite.

 

[bluenoxid]

I think the system in London is the way forward, where you can only park on pavements where it is expressly permitted. And yes, it would need a review of a street, but local people will largely do it for the council.

You mention grass verges, often these have been churned up because they have been used for parking. Not to mention broken paving stones, I can't be the only one whose injured myself quite badly on broken stones caused by vehicles driving on them.

Marked out spaces would help too, because it clearly gives the limit of the space and would allow pedestrians to pass. People don't normally deliberately block the pavement, it's just inattention, so it gives everyone more certainty.

The grass verges that are on my street are more difficult to get on and off so most residents dont use them as it is felt rude to churn up your neighbours frontage

I would certainly be happier with marked spaces. I am just concerned that your view that the council would do this working with local residents is not the reality that really would occur and is going to form part of my response. I think that we will end up with blanket restrictions and parking spaces introduced by Streetmap or drive by surveys completed during a working day following design standards for a 30mphroad rather than a terraced Street where 20 feels fast

Personally, I think we will end up with additional road markings adding to the tool box that show people how far they cannot park on the pavement rather than marked out spaces, which fail to account for the many different types of vehicles

It would be interesting to also consider those undertakers who provide utilities and add various boxes that narrow the pavement. If there are marked spaces, should they account for them when putting in new kit?

 

[Meerkat]

It would be interesting to also consider those undertakers who provide utilities and add various boxes that narrow the pavement. If there are marked spaces, should they account for them when putting in new kit?

Maybe it would set a precedent for the utilities not to put their boxes on the pavement in the way!
Would be handy for the parking officers to be able to hand out warnings, then penalties for those who let their gardens impinge the pavement (then eventually put a fence the far side of the hedge and steal more land....)
Also ticket people who buy cars that don’t fit on their drive and block the pavement!

 

[mmh]

Maybe it would set a precedent for the utilities not to put their boxes on the pavement in the way!
Would be handy for the parking officers to be able to hand out warnings, then penalties for those who let their gardens impinge the pavement (then eventually put a fence the far side of the hedge and steal more land....)
Also ticket people who buy cars that don’t fit on their drive and block the pavement!

That's another thing which is already handled and dealt with on a case by case basis by local authorities. Blanket criminalisation is to nobody's benefit other than those with a fetish for rules who might relish the idea of walking the streets with a tape measure, but most people don't want draconian laws and regimented trees.

The idea that the huge problem to be solved is theft of pavements by stealth is ridiculous, frankly.

 

[Meerkat]

That's another thing which is already handled and dealt with on a case by case basis by local authorities. Blanket criminalisation is to nobody's benefit other than those with a fetish for rules who might relish the idea of walking the streets with a tape measure, but most people don't want draconian laws and regimented trees.

The idea that the huge problem to be solved is theft of pavements by stealth is ridiculous, frankly.

Blanket criminalisation is very much to everybody’s benefit - nearly everyone can use the pavement one way or another.
As for your panicking, how harshly are parking regs enforced? Round here they seem to give loads of leeway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Good to see confirmation that concern for prams and wheelchairs is just a ruse, and the real motive is good old no-nonsense spite.

Installing street furniture that discourages inappropriate driving and parking is "spiteful" now? That's news to me. Someone had better tell my local council in Newcastle who concreted in bollards precisely to prevent parking on the pavement.

My point, as you well know, is that people will park considerately where street furniture gives them no choice. And it's often a better solution than handing out FPNs like confetti.

Personally, I think we will end up with additional road markings adding to the tool box that show people how far they cannot park on the pavement rather than marked out spaces, which fail to account for the many different types of vehicles

In London the signage is clear on whether you can put two wheels on the pavement or all four, and how far across you can have your wheels.

They cope with these rules in the biggest and most densely populated city in the country. All you need to do is extend the rules nationwide.

Blanket criminalisation is to nobody's benefit

Parking offences are not a criminal offence, as you well know.

 

[Vespa]

In a car park, on a drive way, etc. etc.

The problem comes from people either buying a car with nowhere to park it, or buying a house with nowhere to park their existing car.

People want the benefits of a terrace house with no parking (presumably cheaper), but don't want the downsides (no parking).

Such a high handed attitude won't go down well with those who are on low income and just about managing, terraced houses are usually what they can afford AND still need a car to get to work, house prices have shot up recently and to smugly declare that car owners shouldn't buy houses without driveways is completely out of touch.

 

[miami]

Maybe they could swap their car for a scooter -- perhaps a Vespa -- to get to work.

I don't believe anyone is seriously suggesting the end to road parking, only to parking on pavements unless specifically allowed in marked bays by the local authorities. Decisions on this would be down to local town councils.

There is plenty of room to park fully on the road on the main road near me, despite the houses with driveways having been converted into maisonettes (and thus 1 driveway for 2 households). However if people did park fully on the road cars would have to drive more slowly along the road, and that would be awful for everyone in a metal box (and great for everyone else).


Much of pavement parking is the inability for drivers to judge space though. This saves no room at all on the pavement, just damages the curb. I suspect the reason for this continual parking is the difficulty that some people have in judging where their wheels are.

 

[Mojo]

Such a high handed attitude won't go down well with those who are on low income and just about managing, terraced houses are usually what they can afford AND still need a car to get to work, house prices have shot up recently and to smugly declare that car owners shouldn't buy houses without driveways is completely out of touch.

Just because you don’t have a driveway doesn’t mean that you have to park on the pavement.

I live on a street of terraced houses and don’t park on the pavement, neither do any of my neighbours. You just park on the road correctly. If you can’t then you park somewhere else or reconsider your life choices and not own a car.

 

[Vespa]

Just because you don’t have a driveway doesn’t mean that you have to park on the pavement.

I live on a street of terraced houses and don’t park on the pavement, neither do any of my neighbours. You just park on the road correctly. If you can’t then you park somewhere else or reconsider your life choices and not own a car.

Not possible for my road indeed the area I'm in.

"Reconsidering your life choices" What is that to mean ?
It's very asumptive to expect people to simply change their career, most don't have that luxury its either that or no job especially now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much of pavement parking is the inability for drivers to judge space though. This saves no room at all on the pavement, just damages the curb. I suspect the reason for this continual parking is the difficulty that some people have in judging where their wheels are.

Blame driving instructors, none of whom seem to teach the simple parking trick of knocking the wing mirror down on the kerb side so you can see the rear wheel, then reverse parking is about the easiest thing possible beyond driving forwards in a straight line. They seem to try to teach you to do it by looking through the rear window which is incredibly difficult to judge. Yes, you do need to look behind you to check there's nothing there to back into, but in terms of aligning with the kerb by far the easiest way is to use the wing mirror.

Are there any cars left on the road other than classics that don't have a nearside wing mirror or don't have even a manual adjuster on the inside of the car to make doing this easy? I doubt it.

 

[bluenoxid]

Not possible for my road indeed the area I'm in.

"Reconsidering your life choices" What is that to mean ?
It's very asumptive to expect people to simply change their career, most don't have that luxury its either that or no job especially now.

I agree. It is a very poor choice of words for a matter that is not at all simple. I wish my terraced street had the space for demand to not require pavement parking. I wish the transport system was more effective for everyone to enable people to have those choices. Unfortunately, my wishes are not true so a compromise will be required.

 

[Mojo]

Not possible for my road indeed the area I'm in.

"Reconsidering your life choices" What is that to mean ?
It's very asumptive to expect people to simply change their career, most don't have that luxury its either that or no job especially now.

It means, consider getting rid of your car if you feel like you “have” to own one, moving house, or consider parking it somewhere less selfish.

 

[Vespa]

It means, consider getting rid of your car if you feel like you “have” to own one, moving house, or consider parking it somewhere less selfish.

So if they work in an area without public transport and the roads are too full to park elsewhere, it's not going to happen.

I know this is a pro rail and public transport site, even you know they won't run at 5am or right up to industrial estates or ever at all, a car is the only viable option.

 

[Ianno87]

Blame driving instructors, none of whom seem to teach the simple parking trick of knocking the wing mirror down on the kerb side so you can see the rear wheel, then reverse parking is about the easiest thing possible beyond driving forwards in a straight line. They seem to try to teach you to do it by looking through the rear window which is incredibly difficult to judge. Yes, you do need to look behind you to check there's nothing there to back into, but in terms of aligning with the kerb by far the easiest way is to use the wing mirror.

Are there any cars left on the road other than classics that don't have a nearside wing mirror or don't have even a manual adjuster on the inside of the car to make doing this easy? I doubt it.

You're taught not to use the mirror as you become over-reliant on it, and forget to check the back window properly/at all.

 

[miami]

You're taught not to use the mirror as you become over-reliant on it, and forget to check the back window properly/at all.

Do they also disable parking sensors?

This guy is being very responsible -- not even slightly blocking the road. What else could he possibly have done?

 

[bluenoxid]

It means, consider getting rid of your car if you feel like you “have” to own one, moving house, or consider parking it somewhere less selfish.

The problem in my situation is that the reasonable “less-selfish” alternative will bring my local area to gridlock and increase the risk to motorists because I will need to park my vehicle on a national speed limit dual carriageway near a junction. I will be putting my life and the lives of other people at risk. All of the lower speed roads are too narrow or have had single/double yellow put in place to support the movement of vehicles through junctions and bus routes

Do they also disable parking sensors?

This guy is being very responsible -- not even slightly blocking the road. What else could he possibly have done?

View attachment 83063

Just makes you want to cry. Don’t tell me that they have a blue badge.

What is so cringeworthy is the opportunities nearby

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're taught not to use the mirror as you become over-reliant on it, and forget to check the back window properly/at all.

That is a terrible reason not to use the best tool for the job. You can easily do it by scanning between the wing mirror (for positioning) and the rear view mirror (to ensure you're not about to reverse into the kid that's just walked out behind you).

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Do they also disable parking sensors?

This guy is being very responsible -- not even slightly blocking the road. What else could he possibly have done?

View attachment 83063

Not parked there at all given that double yellow lines apply right up to the boundary wall/fence, and if there isn't one the building? (That has caught a lot of people out over the years, e.g. shops who want to allow parking on their land in front of the shop, who can't do that if there are double yellows unless they mark a clear boundary delimiter).

If he has a blue badge he wants it taking off him!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2020 ==

The problem in my situation is that the reasonable “less-selfish” alternative will bring my local area to gridlock and increase the risk to motorists because I will need to park my vehicle on a national speed limit dual carriageway near a junction. I will be putting my life and the lives of other people at risk. All of the lower speed roads are too narrow or have had single/double yellow put in place to support the movement of vehicles through junctions and bus routes

TBH these terraced streets under discussion (and there are some, I know some in Lancaster at least) are a bit of an exception. Old terraced houses are not wheelchair accessible anyway (hallways and doors are too narrow, there is a high entrance step and typically the bathroom arrangement couldn't be accessible either) and are extremely difficult to be made so, so very few people in wheelchairs will live in those houses. If they do they'll be entitled to a disabled bay painting on the road, so in that case they could deal with ensuring access on an individual street basis. Such streets are typically not thoroughfares either, indeed where work has been done on the roads they have often had blocks added to *stop* them being used in that way.

Wheelchair users are to me what the width requirement is about which is why I'd base it on that; I have little time for "4x4 superbuggies" when there are more sensible devices on the market for wheeling small children about.

But the majority of pavement parking is just sheer bone idleness, or a view that blocking the pavement doesn't matter even if you're doing it to save other road users from having to slow down, which a nationwide scheme would at least serve to educate. In the vast majority of cases the vehicle could just be fully parked on the road instead with plenty of room for a fire engine should one be necessary.

Someone else mentioned hedges and trees - that's another one that needs dealing with - there should be an enforceable requirement that trees and hedges must not protrude across the boundary onto the public highway at all below the height of say 7 feet (very few people are taller than that, and actual proper trees improve the public realm), and if people fail to cut them back within say a week of being served written notice the Council should be able to do it and bill them the cost plus a penalty. That would also provide more useful width.