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Rural line reopenings - which one?

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JohnElliott

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Horsham - Southwater. Southwater has grown a lot since the railway closed, and now has a population of ~11,000. Extend the services that currently terminate at Horsham. The original station site has been lost to development, so to avoid expensive demolitions it'd have to be a new platform on the edge of the village.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Of course there aren't enough passengers. This isn't about public transport for the local community, it's purely about tourism - the Dales equivalent of the Ffestiniog or Welsh Highland Railway. Wensleydale railway have made no progress in extending beyond Redmire and there's zero potential for it to become part of the national network. But a narrow gauge tourist railway wending its way from Leyburn through Aysgarth and Hawes and maybe up to Garsdale might work. It would certainly reduce the cost of restoration and be as attractive to tourists as a standard gauge railway, perhaps more so.

Does it actually save much money having the rails a couple of feet closer together? I'd have thought standard gauge would be cheaper due to the vast amount of existing rolling stock.
 

paul1609

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Well, it is a long term solution to resilience. If you did have to replace the Dawlish section altogether, the route between Exeter and Plymouth would still be subject to periodic disruption and maintenance works. It's also a long term solution to opening up central Devon, Tavistock and Okehampton to the rail network.

Having a single, winding branch line to plymouth isn't a long term solution.
I suspect that if you want to add resilience to rail to the Southwest with rising sea levels and adverse weather the Oakhampton route would fall down on the fact that it always the first line in Devon to close because of flooding at Cowley Bridge Junction and the River Yeo valley. It also runs alongside the Tamar sea estuary and across the Tavy Bridge on its approach to Plymouth.
RRBs to Tiverton Parkway are always going to be more reliable and cost effective. I think freight in the southwest is almost extinct.
 

geordieblue

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RRBs to Tiverton Parkway are always going to be more reliable and cost effective. I think freight in the southwest is almost extinct.
There's still china clay traffic, and extensive quarrying in the Mendip area (although that area isn't affected by the Dawlish issue).
 

quantinghome

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Does it actually save much money having the rails a couple of feet closer together? I'd have thought standard gauge would be cheaper due to the vast amount of existing rolling stock.
Everything is smaller. The weight of locomotives and rolling stock will be substantially lower, rails lighter (typically 30kg/m), structures cheaper to rebuild, or may not require any rebuilding at all if they can support the reduced loading compared to standard gauge. Obstructions are easier to build around etc.

Looking at it another way, several narrow gauge heritage railways have been opened and extended, some such as South Tynedale on former standard gauge routes. Why do this unless it's cheaper? It appears to be much harder to extend standard gauge heritage railways.
 

paul1609

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Does it actually save much money having the rails a couple of feet closer together? I'd have thought standard gauge would be cheaper due to the vast amount of existing rolling stock.
Yes, its between a third and a half (ish) of a standard gauge heritage railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There's still china clay traffic, and extensive quarrying in the Mendip area (although that area isn't affected by the Dawlish issue).
How many China Clay trains are there in an average week?
 

A0

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Everything is smaller. The weight of locomotives and rolling stock will be substantially lower, rails lighter (typically 30kg/m), structures cheaper to rebuild, or may not require any rebuilding at all if they can support the reduced loading compared to standard gauge. Obstructions are easier to build around etc.

Looking at it another way, several narrow gauge heritage railways have been opened and extended, some such as South Tynedale on former standard gauge routes. Why do this unless it's cheaper? It appears to be much harder to extend standard gauge heritage railways.

There's also the fact that building rolling stock is cheaper and there are a number of people doing new build steam locos and rolling stock.

It's also more space efficient - so if you've got a trackbed which has been partly re-used, a narrow gauge line will need only a fraction of the space of a standard gauge line, building on your comment about the overall loading gauge.
 

A0

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New yes, but how does it compare when there's plenty of second hand standard gauge kit out there?

Well, if you look at the condition of a good chunk of the rolling stock which seems to exist on a lot of heritage lines the sheer level of maintenance needed to bring it up to scratch is significant.

If you look at the likes of the Ffestiniog, Romney Hythe or Ravenglass, the sheer size of the rolling stock makes it *far* easier to maintain, even relatively simple things like cleaning or repainting.

We know that the national rail only sells off rolling stock when it's life expired - true even in BR days - and where BR and the subsequent TOCs have the manpower, income and equipment to maintain heavy rolling stock, it's a huge drain on the heritage sector. Weardale found that with the Class 141s they had.
 

paul1609

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I'm inexperienced at RTT, I'm afraid, but there appear to be at least daily services from Fowey, alongside less frequent services to other locations.
I believe that the main flow is from Goonbarrow to Fowey Docks which is not affected by the Dawlish problem. I think there is a infrequent service to Stoke on Trent that is affected by Dawlish but that is in effect the only remaining freight and not likely to support major investment in a new or re-opened line.
 

Bald Rick

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Are you still allowed to have a 'speculative idea' that was part of the EMR franchise agreement to tender a study for and listed in the Department's RNEP summary? :lol:

Just because it’s being looked at doesn’t make it non-speculative!
 
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Halifaxlad

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This is a tough choice!

Im going to go with Cullingworth to Keighley in West Yorkshire.

Reasoning is as follows...

Keighley on the (electrified) Aire Valley is a highly successful station on a highly successful line in terms of passenger numbers but yet has a terribly small car park.

Apparently around 2000 vehicles a day go down the road past Ingrow West station, that is adjacent to the site of the old Ingrow East that was on the GNR line to Cullingworth. Presumably the majority of these are travelling to work either Northwards towards Skipton or Soutwards towards Leeds.

The old Ingrow East side is nice and flat and subject to relocation of several businesses could make an ideal car park! The trackbed up to it is intacted. (Obviously this would have to operated out of platform 3 at Keighley owned by the KWVR)

Ingrow East.png

Its about 3.25 acres!

Since the trackbed is also intacted to Cullingworth you might as well extend it there and give Cullingworth that is a decently sized village, growing in number a decent rail link!
 

Irascible

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The, ahem, more sensible one ( which I believe I might have posted already ) -

Barnstaple - Ilfracombe:

* Ilfracombe - pop 12k-ish, is the most deprived place in Devon County Council's area ( according to a report I lost sight of ) and a long way up near the top nationally
* It'd be probably 75-80 mins from Exeter, which is the only place to go to work ( other than Barnstaple, I guess - which is to a considerable degree a dormitory town itself ).
* The route is mostly clear bar a few obstacles in Braunton ( cough, let's ignore that some of them are ex-crossings, shall we? ) and the small case of a missing bridge over the tidal river.
* Braunton - pop 10k ish, and a number of popular beaches are on the way.
* The roads are picturesque, but awful. It's Exmoor, they're not going to get any better. Have a look at the A39 sometime...

--
Edited much later for extra points.

Major problems:
* Barnstaple town, and the old formation: there's a lot of construction immediately north of Barnstaple Jct & directly over the river where the old bridge joined the north bank. Solution: use the underbridge left in for any revival of the Bideford line, branch off that to the right, build a new bridge west of the A361 bridge and join the formation there. The A361 will have already discovered a lot of problems that might turn up. With decent internal transport in Barnstaple there's no need for Town station ( I find it unlikely any revived L&B is going to make it that far either, but even if they do - not something to spend millions on rebuilding the old route ).
* Braunton: I'm surprised how little build there's been on the formation, but it does literally split the town in two and as far as I remember it's on the level. I guess there's a chance you could go round the town slightly to the west & tunnel under a little of it, but now we're talking quite a large project. Whatever happens it'd take a lot of money being thrown at it. I *think* there's room for a bridge just north of the old station site, the other crossings would be up the north end by what's now the fire station ( which I suspect would need resiting ), and the roundabout at the south end would need remodelling but I can't see any major issues with bridging down there instead. I haven't been to Braunton for quite a few years, so most of this is using maps to prod my memory.
* Ilfracombe station has been built on - but it wouldn't be the first place where a station has been built a little up the line. There appears to be room for a reasonable car-park unless the nature reserve border is up to the old station area.

---

The really daft one would be Okehampton - Bude, Bude is kinda hung out on the north coast there all on it's own( and I think putting that back has at least been looked at ) but mostly I'd just like to have taken a ride on it :).
 
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Bald Rick

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The, ahem, more sensible one ( which I believe I might have posted already ) -

Barnstaple - Ilfracombe:

* Ilfracombe - pop 12k-ish, is the most deprived place in Devon County Council's area ( according to a report I lost sight of ) and a long way up near the top nationally
* It'd be probably 75-80 mins from Exeter, which is the only place to go to work ( other than Barnstaple, I guess - which is to a considerable degree a dormitory town itself ).
* The route is mostly clear bar a few obstacles in Braunton ( cough, let's ignore that some of them are ex-crossings, shall we? ) and the small case of a missing bridge over the tidal river.
* Braunton - pop 10k ish, and a number of popular beaches are on the way.
* The roads are picturesque, but awful. It's Exmoor, they're not going to get any better. Have a look at the A39 sometime...

The really daft one would be Okehampton - Bude, Bude is kinda hung out on the north coast there all on it's own( and I think putting that back has at least been looked at ) but mostly I'd just like to have taken a ride on it :).

Now that’s quite a reasonable argument. On the face of it, it makes much more sense than many of the other ‘old chestnut’ suggestions, including reopening Okehampton to Bere Alston.

Unfortunately, your suggestion that the route is largely clear looks a bit optimistic. There’s lots in the way, not least at both ends, and the A361. But, that doesn’t make it much more difficult, just more expensive.
 

Meerkat

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The, ahem, more sensible one ( which I believe I might have posted already ) -

Barnstaple - Ilfracombe:

* Ilfracombe - pop 12k-ish, is the most deprived place in Devon County Council's area ( according to a report I lost sight of ) and a long way up near the top nationally
* It'd be probably 75-80 mins from Exeter, which is the only place to go to work ( other than Barnstaple, I guess - which is to a considerable degree a dormitory town itself ).
* The route is mostly clear bar a few obstacles in Braunton ( cough, let's ignore that some of them are ex-crossings, shall we? ) and the small case of a missing bridge over the tidal river.
* Braunton - pop 10k ish, and a number of popular beaches are on the way.
* The roads are picturesque, but awful. It's Exmoor, they're not going to get any better. Have a look at the A39 sometime...

The really daft one would be Okehampton - Bude, Bude is kinda hung out on the north coast there all on it's own( and I think putting that back has at least been looked at ) but mostly I'd just like to have taken a ride on it :).
Isn’t Ilfracombe station way above the town and about a mile from the beach? It’s a bus job.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Kemble - Cirencester - Fairford - Witney - Oxford would be an @Altnabreac Rules compliant commuter run.....
Oxford-Witney breezes through four of Altnabreac's rules (all except "regeneration potential"). Witney-Carterton gets four too (all except "mainly unobstructed trackbed"). But I have a hard time seeing Carterton-Fairford passing the tests, let alone new-build Fairford-Ciren.
 

30907

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This is a tough choice!

Im going to go with Cullingworth to Keighley in West Yorkshire.

Reasoning is as follows...

Keighley on the (electrified) Aire Valley is a highly successful station on a highly successful line in terms of passenger numbers but yet has a terribly small car park.

Apparently around 2000 vehicles a day go down the road past Ingrow West station, that is adjacent to the site of the old Ingrow East that was on the GNR line to Cullingworth. Presumably the majority of these are travelling to work either Northwards towards Skipton or Soutwards towards Leeds.

The old Ingrow East side is nice and flat and subject to relocation of several businesses could make an ideal car park! The trackbed up to it is intacted. (Obviously this would have to operated out of platform 3 at Keighley owned by the KWVR)

View attachment 83338

Its about 3.25 acres!

Since the trackbed is also intacted to Cullingworth you might as well extend it there and give Cullingworth that is a decently sized village, growing in number a decent rail link!
Cullingworth is a village with a population of maybe 4k (counting the new builds) up a steep gradient through a mile-long tunnel.
The idea of Ingrow as a P+R for Keighley and the Airedale Line is interesting but that could be just as easily be served by using the KWVR platform. Operationally, if you could store the unit (a Pacer?!) on the VCT site or at Keighley, you could operate a 15-minute peak shuttle with no impact on the heritage service; you could manage a 45-minute service all day if you funded full signalling at Keighley.
And this would be rather more practical/economical than the oft-proposed commuter service from Haworth.
 

WesternBiker

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Isn’t Ilfracombe station way above the town and about a mile from the beach? It’s a bus job.
I agree - it was always an intimidating hike up the hill from the centre of the town up to the station - and the station site is now home to one of one of Ilfracombe's largest employers. A pity, because the road access is undeniably awful, especially in summer. And threading a railway from the current station to the old Barnstaple Town would be challenging - not just a new bridge, but there's a shiny new(ish) retail park in the way.
 

Irascible

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I agree - it was always an intimidating hike up the hill from the centre of the town up to the station - and the station site is now home to one of one of Ilfracombe's largest employers. A pity, because the road access is undeniably awful, especially in summer. And threading a railway from the current station to the old Barnstaple Town would be challenging - not just a new bridge, but there's a shiny new(ish) retail park in the way.

Yes - no denying that'd need further connection, I don't think there's a decent alternative location other than "slightly further up the line". Bus travel around that area needs to be experienced to be believed quite how awful it is though.

If I were scribbling lines to redo it all, I'd bypass Barnstaple Town entirely & build a new bridge north-west roughly where the A361 road bridge is ( it's a pity that wasn't built with room for a line like they left a hole for one under the roundabout... ), there's really no need to thread through the town now. Braunton & the bridge mean it's not going to happen unless we're suddenly awash with cash, but it's one of those cases where I think ( based on what I very vaguely remember as an Exeter Uni report ) the closure caused demonstrable misery.
 

gallafent

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Oxford-Witney breezes through four of Altnabreac's rules (all except "regeneration potential"). Witney-Carterton gets four too (all except "mainly unobstructed trackbed"). But I have a hard time seeing Carterton-Fairford passing the tests, let alone new-build Fairford-Ciren.
More talk of this (and how unlikely it is, even Oxford-Witney) in the local paper today:


LINKING Oxford and Witney by a new railway could be a 'light in the dark' to the huge traffic jams on the A40.
Plans to revive the railway between Oxford and the west of the county have been discussed before, as much of the old track bed on the way to Witney still exists.
When Oxfordshire county councillors met on Tuesday they gave their backing to the idea of carrying out a study into whether a rail link from Carterton, Witney and Eynsham to Oxford could be doable, as part of a solution to traffic on the A40.
Charles Mathew, the Conservative councillor for Eynsham proposed the plan, and in his motion for debate said a decision by Oxfordshire's Local Enterprise Partnership to withdraw money from a relief road project for the A40 'undermines sensible solutions to the endless traffic jams on the A40 between Witney and Oxford roundabouts'.
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The proposed relief road, the Loop Farm project, would have seen a road built between Duke’s Cut on the A40 to the Loop Farm roundabout road on the A44, taking pressure off the Wolvercote roundabout.

Mr Mathew said a rail link could help to take the pressure of West Oxfordshire commuters off the roads by placing them on trains instead.
He said: "We need to look forward and solve the A40 problem, not just for today at its rate of 32,000 cars a day but for the next 20 years at least.
"An imaginative approach is needed.
"I would look to the old railway line… as the light in the darkness."
Oxford Mail:

Traffic near Wolvercote roundabout in 2016. Picture: Richard Cave
Mr Mathew later added that continuing to improve the A40 would not solve its traffic problem, especially as more housing developments are being built along the road, and that a long term solution was needed.
He said: "This is in today’s age an absolute necessity that we should be looking 20, 30 40 years ahead.
"Funding is not impossible if you have the desire."

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Other councillors were largely supportive of the idea of carrying out a study into the new railway line, including Paul Buckley, the Lib Dem councillor for Wolvercote and Summertown, where the impact of traffic on the A40 is keenly felt.
Mr Buckley said: "Frankly my residents around Wolvercote felt let down by the decision to remove the funding for the Loop Farm link road.
"The need for it has been apparent for years even before the new housing came along."
He added that while plans to fix the road had stalled, large new housing developments, including Oxford North, had been approved, which would add hundreds of cars to nearby roads.
Oxford Mail:

A design drawing of council plans to dual the A40. Picture: Oxfordshire County Council
Mr Buckley added: "This is horrendous. It is simply unacceptable for the county council to blithely continue with no plan to fix congestion at the Wolvercote roundabout."
But Yvonne Constance, the Conservative-run council's cabinet member for transport and the environment said the planned relief road was still on the cards, as it was part of a long term 'connectivity strategy'.
Ms Constance added previous studies into reviving the railway line had shown it was not financially viable and said there were other priorities for the railways in Oxfordshire which needed to be funded, including reopening the Cowley Branch Line and the East-West rail link to Cambridge.
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Oxfordshire County Council has won a bid for £102m of Government transport funding which will allow it to dual the A40, and to add in new bus lanes along the road.
It hopes to build a new Eynsham park and ride for commuters into Oxford as well.
Only last year campaigners in the Witney Oxford Transport Group drew up a plan for a new railway line extending westwards out of the city, claiming the A40 upgrade would not be enough on its own.
Witney MP Robert Courts has also previously expressed an interest in whether reviving the railway line could be feasible.
 

Bletchleyite

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It'd strike me that building something like that as light rail (sort-of proto-tram) would be the way to go. I can't see much case for any new heavy-rail, one-DMU-an-hour branch lines.
 

gallafent

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(Mods: happy to move to speculative ideas if more appropriate than this reopening branch line thread, even though the route of the speculative idea is at least partially over two rural(ish) branch lines!!)

It'd strike me that building something like that as light rail (sort-of proto-tram) would be the way to go. I can't see much case for any new heavy-rail, one-DMU-an-hour branch lines.
I'm inclined to agree. Some sort of mid-rail (!) link between Cowley (or even, much better, Wheatley and beyond that the M40 services!) and Witney, using existing rail alignments where available (and no better alternative available, i.e. mostly through Oxford itself, which is heavily built up), but also potentially being more “trammy” through Oxford itself feels like a better idea. Once an hour from Witney would surely not get much custom, since the buses are way more frequent than that … getting to twice or three times an hour, on the other hand, with substantially faster journey times than the bus (and than a car, in peak flows), might be more viable for users. Stop intervals between those for buses and those for heavy rail would likewise make it a more useful option for many people perhaps. You'd need decent acceleration /and/ maximum speed to make that sort of hybrid thing work though.

I guess something like the Sheffield Supertram Tram-Train might be just the thing. As its wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_399 says, though:

The results of the trials may become a decisive factor on the adoption of tram-train technology at various other sites across the country.

<crayon>M40 Services (Park&Ride) - Wheatley - Horspath - Cowley - Littlemore - Redbridge (P&R) - Oxford Central - Wolvercote - Eynsham - Witney East (P&R) - Witney Central</crayon>
 

Doctor Fegg

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You wouldn't build Oxford-Witney as a one-DMU-an-hour branch line. You'd extend 387s and/or IETs from Oxford to give a through service to "Science Vale" (Culham/Didcot), Reading and Paddington. Better for platform occupancy at Oxford too.
 

Tobbes

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You wouldn't build Oxford-Witney as a one-DMU-an-hour branch line. You'd extend 387s and/or IETs from Oxford to give a through service to "Science Vale" (Culham/Didcot), Reading and Paddington. Better for platform occupancy at Oxford too.
A very good call.
 

JamesT

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(Mods: happy to move to speculative ideas if more appropriate than this reopening branch line thread, even though the route of the speculative idea is at least partially over two rural(ish) branch lines!!)


I'm inclined to agree. Some sort of mid-rail (!) link between Cowley (or even, much better, Wheatley and beyond that the M40 services!) and Witney, using existing rail alignments where available (and no better alternative available, i.e. mostly through Oxford itself, which is heavily built up), but also potentially being more “trammy” through Oxford itself feels like a better idea. Once an hour from Witney would surely not get much custom, since the buses are way more frequent than that … getting to twice or three times an hour, on the other hand, with substantially faster journey times than the bus (and than a car, in peak flows), might be more viable for users. Stop intervals between those for buses and those for heavy rail would likewise make it a more useful option for many people perhaps. You'd need decent acceleration /and/ maximum speed to make that sort of hybrid thing work though.

I guess something like the Sheffield Supertram Tram-Train might be just the thing. As its wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_399 says, though:



<crayon>M40 Services (Park&Ride) - Wheatley - Horspath - Cowley - Littlemore - Redbridge (P&R) - Oxford Central - Wolvercote - Eynsham - Witney East (P&R) - Witney Central</crayon>

Going beyond Cowley is going to be tricky. Bits of Wheatley have been built upon the old trackbed so you'd have to find a new route.
 
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