Why is the stopping Cambridge - Kings Cross service branded Thameslink and not Great Northern?

[PTR 444]

The 2tph service which stops at all stations between Cambridge and Hatfield then semi-fast to Kings Cross is branded as a Thameslink service, despite none of it running through the Thameslink core. I am aware that it was supposed to be extended to Maidstone via the core, but this has not happened and is now on hold for the foreseeable future. If this is the case, why did GTR not just brand it as Great Northern from the start and change it to TL only if the extension to Maidstone came to fruition? Having a service branded after a piece of infrastructure it doesn’t even run through just seems silly in my opinion.

 

[Ianno87]

Because it uses a common fleet of Thameslink-branded 8-car 700s that operate other services that do cross London (e.g. St Albans-Sutton)

Being branded as "Thameslink" but not operating across London confuses precisely nobody in practice. If anything it puts the majority of suburban services calling at Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth etc all under the same brand.

 

[bramling]

The 2tph service which stops at all stations between Cambridge and Hatfield then semi-fast to Kings Cross is branded as a Thameslink service, despite none of it running through the Thameslink core. I am aware that it was supposed to be extended to Maidstone via the core, but this has not happened and is now on hold for the foreseeable future. If this is the case, why did GTR not just brand it as Great Northern from the start and change it to TL only if the extension to Maidstone came to fruition? Having a service branded after a piece of infrastructure it doesn’t even run through just seems silly in my opinion.

I think your answer is that it was planned to be part of the Cambridge to Maidstone service, and the current arrangement was only planned to be temporary.

The concept back in 2018 was that all 700 services would be branded Thameslink. This has eroded very slightly since as there are a couple of GN 700 services in the timetable, but still only a drop in the ocean.

What the future holds for Cambridge to Maidstone remains to be seen. Remember that t he current service is an adaptation of the Maidstone plan - the actual timetable was written for it, and all they have done is tweaked to make it run to King’s Cross instead. The reporting numbers were clearly originally done for Maidstone - indeed a couple of 5Uxx numbers managed to find their way into May 18 timetable, but have since been changed.

 

[317666]

It's worth noting that the service in question has only been 1tph since March, although it does look to be going back up to 2tph again around school start/finish times from next week.

I wish they'd go back to advertising it as a Finsbury Park service from Cambridge to stop people travelling to King's Cross getting on it by mistake, but I'm sure we've already had a thread or two about that whole issue recently!

 

[Starmill]

Common theme. Trains advertised as Thameslink have run from London Victoria before.

 

[PTR 444]

So basically the service is branded as Thameslink because it uses class 700 units, most of which have the TL livery. That means all local stations north of Stevenage on the routes to Cambridge and Peterborough are served exclusively by class 700s, so I can see some logic there. I guess the locals must love their modern, spacious trains compared to what was there before.

 

[TurbostarFan]

I think your answer is that it was planned to be part of the Cambridge to Maidstone service, and the current arrangement was only planned to be temporary.

The concept back in 2018 was that all 700 services would be branded Thameslink. This has eroded very slightly since as there are a couple of GN 700 services in the timetable, but still only a drop in the ocean.

What the future holds for Cambridge to Maidstone remains to be seen. Remember that t he current service is an adaptation of the Maidstone plan - the actual timetable was written for it, and all they have done is tweaked to make it run to King’s Cross instead. The reporting numbers were clearly originally done for Maidstone - indeed a couple of 5Uxx numbers managed to find their way into May 18 timetable, but have since been changed.

But the GN 700 services are fast services, and therefore belong under the Great Northern brand, not the Thameslink one.

 

[Ianno87]

But the GN 700 services are fast services, and therefore belong under the Great Northern brand, not the Thameslink one.

Compared to an Ely/King's Lynn fast, they're very slow!

 

[swt_passenger]

But the GN 700 services are fast services, and therefore belong under the Great Northern brand, not the Thameslink one.

Not really the point, they’re Thameslink because they’re all supposed to go through the Thameslink core.

 

[43066]

Having a service branded after a piece of infrastructure it doesn’t even run through just seems silly in my opinion.

Thameslink services from Sevenoaks terminate in the Blackfriars bay platforms, as part of the standard timetable, so never touch the core proper.

(During engineering works TL services regularly run south from London Bridge and Victoria, and north from St Pancras high level, as they were doing this weekend)

 

[tbwbear]

Thameslink services from Sevenoaks terminate in the Blackfriars bay platforms, as part of the standard timetable, so never touch the core proper.

That is true enough, although IIRC weren't they also originally intended to go through the core and get linked to (IIRC) Welwyn stopping services ?

Then the sole use for 3 and 4 at Blackfriars would have been the peak only South Eastern services.

Not sure if that plan has been dropped already.

 

[swt_passenger]

That is true enough, although IIRC weren't they also originally intended to go through the core and get linked to (IIRC) Welwyn stopping services ?

Not sure if that plan has been dropped already. Then the sole use for 3 and 4 at Blackfriars would have been the peak only South Eastern services.

There’s also supposed to be additional Southern peak only services round the Wimbledon/Sutton loop between the Blackfriars bays and London Bridge; also IIRC the Sevenoaks to Welwyn services are peak only, just running to/from Blackfriars off peak.

 

[tbwbear]

There’s also supposed to be additional Southern peak only services round the Wimbledon/Sutton loop between the Blackfriars bays and London Bridge; also IIRC the Sevenoaks to Welwyn services are peak only, just running to/from Blackfriars off peak.

For sure yes, but I think the original plan - before the timetable introduction disaster - was for all Sevenoaks (via Elephant & Castle) services to go through the core in addition to the new Maidstone to Cambridge services (via London Bridge).

IIRC hardly anything, in the original plan, was supposed to terminate at Blackfriars... or did I mis-remember ?

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it depends which original plan you refer to. But in the 2018 consultation the whole 24 tph Thameslink service was supposed to run through in the peaks.

 

[tbwbear]

Maybe I am getting confused then. I thought there was a plan (at some stage) that called for almost nothing to terminate at Blackfriars regardless of peak / off peak and everything went through the core. I could well be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time !

 

[jopsuk]

In the original plan all Sutton Loop services were to terminate at Blackfriars, with a doubling of loop frequencies supposedly being promised to offset the loss of through services. Can't remember which destinations the northern half of the loop services were to serve instead, but then Cambridge slows were going to Tattenham Corner so possibly the St Albans services were going to Caterham? There was a switch to send much more TL into Southeastern "Mainline" (ie not Metro) services but also the Sutton loop users really got upset.

 

[TFN]

Maybe I am getting confused then. I thought there was a plan (at some stage) that called for almost nothing to terminate at Blackfriars regardless of peak / off peak and everything went through the core. I could well be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time !

I was under the impression that the Sevenoaks services would terminate at the bays at Blackfriars except for the peak where they'd run through to Welwyn, freeing up the bays for peak Southerns/Southeasterns.

 

[Ianno87]

I was under the impression that the Sevenoaks services would terminate at the bays at Blackfriars except for the peak where they'd run through to Welwyn, freeing up the bays for peak Southerns/Southeasterns.

Correct.

 

[bramling]

Compared to an Ely/King's Lynn fast, they're very slow!

Apologies my initial post wasn’t fully clear. The GN 700 services I was referring to *are* actually Great Northern branded. I was referring to one or two fast Peterborough services on weekends which have been or are diagrammed for 700s. I’m away at the moment so I can’t remember which ones they are. There may be the odd one on Sunday mornings too.

 

[387star]

You often see Great Northern uniformed drivers at Horsham and Brighton. For some reason orange driver bags are rare on Great Northern and most have silver or black bags.

The brand's days are numbered with GN metro likely to transfer to Overground.

The Kings Cross to Cambridge service and some peak welwyn services will eventually become Thameslink although it wouldn't surprise me if they abandon Maidstone East /Ashford

There are some late night and early trains to Peterborough and Cambridge branded Thameslink with no intention to ever run them through The core as the all night service focusses on Bedford to Three bridges with enough services provided

 

[Horizon22]

Thameslink services from Sevenoaks terminate in the Blackfriars bay platforms, as part of the standard timetable, so never touch the core proper.

(During engineering works TL services regularly run south from London Bridge and Victoria, and north from St Pancras high level, as they were doing this weekend)

And also Sunday mornings from Vic, which may have originally been possession related but now seems a permanent feature.

In the original plan all Sutton Loop services were to terminate at Blackfriars, with a doubling of loop frequencies supposedly being promised to offset the loss of through services. Can't remember which destinations the northern half of the loop services were to serve instead, but then Cambridge slows were going to Tattenham Corner so possibly the St Albans services were going to Caterham? There was a switch to send much more TL into Southeastern "Mainline" (ie not Metro) services but also the Sutton loop users really got upset.

They did rather! And then capacity at Norwood Junction couldn't handle these extra services so fudges like Rainham were included last minute.

 

[LAX54]

Because it uses a common fleet of Thameslink-branded 8-car 700s that operate other services that do cross London (e.g. St Albans-Sutton)

Being branded as "Thameslink" but not operating across London confuses precisely nobody in practice. If anything it puts the majority of suburban services calling at Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth etc all under the same brand.

Could argue that it does link various Towns with the 'Thames'

 

[PTR 444]

Thameslink services from Sevenoaks terminate in the Blackfriars bay platforms, as part of the standard timetable, so never touch the core proper.

The Sevenoaks service terminates at a station where all other services are branded Thameslink, therefore I think it makes sense for it to be branded as such even if it doesn’t continue north into the core (and I thought the core started just south of Blackfriars). Unlike the TL Cambridge stopper which terminates in the Kings Cross trainshed shared with other operators and brands.

 

[ashkeba]

The brand's days are numbered with GN metro likely to transfer to Overground.

The Kings Cross to Cambridge service and some peak welwyn services will eventually become Thameslink although it wouldn't surprise me if they abandon Maidstone East /Ashford

There will be unhappy travellers if Ely/KL fasts are branded TL without running through because they were originally told of through services and not everyone has kept informed on changes in the plan often insulted as "thameslink 3000".

 

[swt_passenger]

The Kings Cross to Cambridge service and some peak welwyn services will eventually become Thameslink although it wouldn't surprise me if they abandon Maidstone East /Ashford

There are some late night and early trains to Peterborough and Cambridge branded Thameslink with no intention to ever run them through The core as the all night service focusses on Bedford to Three bridges with enough services provided

You just cannot say they’ll become Thameslink as though its a fact. It‘s also been suggested the ECML operator should run them.

Late and Early trains have to get to and from depots at set places on the Network, eg Hornsey. It therefore makes perfect sense to run them on reduced parts of routes startIng or terminating at Kings Cross. Short workings at such times that don’t do the full route are commonplace all over the network.

 

[Ianno87]

You just cannot say they’ll become Thameslink as though its a fact.

Formally, that is the 'committed' position at this stage.

 

[swt_passenger]

Formally, that is the 'committed' position at this stage.

Committed by who? I must have missed that...

 

[Ianno87]

Committed by who? I must have missed that...

Well, would have been a GTR franchise requirement (noting the franchise is of course under an EMA)

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, would have been a GTR franchise requirement (noting the franchise is of course under an EMA)

But I was thinking @387star was referring to the remaining GN fast Cambridge to Kings Cross trains, (the “Flyers”), rather than the services known to be future planned Thameslinks?

 

[Ianno87]

But I was thinking @387star was referring to the remaining GN fast Cambridge to Kings Cross trains, (the “Flyers”), rather than the services known to be future planned Thameslinks?

There is indeed no plan to send the GN Fasts through Thameslink. King's Lynn services through the core may have been a proposal in the dim and distant past (e.g. NSE era), but not for many. many years.