GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[irish_rail]

“Quite a few“ on what basis - are we talking a significant number of people who will actually go by train and will be put off by changing? Making it one service not only increases the delay risk but makes it harder to make the timings convenient for commuting and connections at either end.

Cardiff is very much a destination in its own right from the south west peninsula, as fir example most bands, concerts etc will often not venture south or west of the Welsh capital. I'd say a quick ish service from plymouth or cornwall to cardiff would be fairly well used, and would also give more trains from the south west to Bristol which currently only has XC as an option.
All this is irrelevant of course as the new units are to release 158s I believe so that other cascades can occur.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2020 ==

Up North where they need them. Then GWR could lose a class and simplify to 80x, HST, Turbo, 150

edit - forgot the 769s!

Dont make me laugh. Have you been up north lately. Lots and lots of empty trains running around almost all doubled up, including a shiny new regional fleet of 195 331 etc. We'll hang onto the 158s thanks.

 

[Mollman]

Great Western feature in the August edition of Modern Railways states that the extra Castles would ideally replaced 158s on Cornish mainline as they have more capacity. However it does not say where the 158s would go, but elsewhere does talk about extending the Barnstaple service eastward as part of the Devon Metro project.

 

[fgwrich]

Agreed, but if you have them available where else would you put them ?

Back to Bristol to happily replace the ever awful Turbos. If they have to stay in the franchise, put them on the branches. Or lose them to something else, East West or Chiltern.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The Penzance to Cardiff, Milford Haven, Manchester and Portsmouth Alphaline services were very popular. Seat reservations, refreshment trolley and air-con and good marketing meant many services were well used. Why can't it be done with the 255s?

 

[John R]

“Quite a few“ on what basis - are we talking a significant number of people who will actually go by train and will be put off by changing? Making it one service not only increases the delay risk but makes it harder to make the timings convenient for commuting and connections at either end.

I'm assuming that with the additional sets, all 5 (instead of the current 4) Cardiff to Taunton diagrams will be HST. Similarly at the other end, with the Exeter to Penzance services. So the infill from Taunton to Exeter would potentially enable the majority of services to be linked.

You are correct that the timings would need to work at both ends unless there was a wholesale recast of the services which seems unlikely. But given that the handful of services that run through already tie in well with the services at either end, I would have thought shouldn't be too hard to achieve.

As for what additional traffic it would bring? Well, remember that the additional resource for the service will be relatively small, as the infill section is about 30 min each way, so there wouldn't need to be a massive increase to make a business case work. Remember also that most services on the Bristol to SW route are Voyagers with relatively poor capacity, and are often crowded. As an example, an elderly couple with luggage travelling from South Wales might find a direct service with no worry about fighting their way at Bristol onto a crowded Voyager with limited luggage space quite appealing, and with no change the journey time won't be that much greater. And also the connectivity along the route is much improved, such as stations in North Somerset to Exeter and beyond.

 

[30907]

I'm assuming that with the additional sets, all 5 (instead of the current 4) Cardiff to Taunton diagrams will be HST. Similarly at the other end, with the Exeter to Penzance services. So the infill from Taunton to Exeter would potentially enable the majority of services to be linked.

You are correct that the timings would need to work at both ends unless there was a wholesale recast of the services which seems unlikely. But given that the handful of services that run through already tie in well with the services at either end, I would have thought shouldn't be too hard to achieve.

As for what additional traffic it would bring? Well, remember that the additional resource for the service will be relatively small, as the infill section is about 30 min each way, so there wouldn't need to be a massive increase to make a business case work. Remember also that most services on the Bristol to SW route are Voyagers with relatively poor capacity, and are often crowded. As an example, an elderly couple with luggage travelling from South Wales might find a direct service with no worry about fighting their way at Bristol onto a crowded Voyager with limited luggage space quite appealing, and with no change the journey time won't be that much greater. And also the connectivity along the route is much improved, such as stations in North Somerset to Exeter and beyond.

And there are proposals for new stations at (IIRC) Wellington and Cullompton.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Penzance to Cardiff,Milford Haven,Manchester and Portsmouth Alphaline services were very popular. Seat reservations,refreshment trolley and air-con and good marketing meant many services were well used. Why can't it be done with the 255s?

Not certain about seat reservations but I'm sure I read some time ago that an at-seat catering service would be introduced onboard the 255s in due course, I don't know whether that's still the case though?

 

[37424]

Back to Bristol to happily replace the ever awful Turbos. If they have to stay in the franchise, put them on the branches. Or lose them to something else, East West or Chiltern.

Isn't the whole point of these conversions to ensure they have enough capacity to get rid of the Pacers, so why would they be likely to leave the franchise?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Nothing is leaving the “franchise”, apart from the 8 cl.143 units.

 

[northernbelle]

Isn't the whole point of these conversions to ensure they have enough capacity to get rid of the Pacers, so why would they be likely to leave the franchise?

They [the Turbos] are not leaving the franchise. In fact, the expectation is that a fair sum of money will be spent on improving them to remain within GWR.

 

[37424]

They [the Turbos] are not leaving the franchise. In fact, the expectation is that a fair sum of money will be spent on improving them to remain within GWR.

Yes I know that but for some strange reason some people seemed to think that the displaced 158's could leave the franchise or displace Turbo's when its been made perfectly clear by 'Clarence Yard' etc the additional HST's are to ensure the Pacers are eliminated by freeing up some 158's from their existing diagrams. its not difficult really and am sure the 158's will be deployed as needed on GWR yet we have had posts talking about sending them to Northern.

As for them being a waste on Cornish branch lines I don't think it make much odds really it gives flexibility to cover longer distance services as required

 

[Anonymous10]

Hi what are the castles line to travel on and which are more common on the Cardiff to Penzance service also which is more comfortable

 

[fgwrich]

Yes I know that but for some strange reason some people seemed to think that the displaced 158's could leave the franchise or displace Turbo's when its been made perfectly clear by 'Clarence Yard' etc the additional HST's are to ensure the Pacers are eliminated by freeing up some 158's from their existing diagrams. its not difficult really and am sure the 158's will be deployed as needed on GWR yet we have had posts talking about sending them to Northern.

As for them being a waste on Cornish branch lines I don't think it make much odds really it gives flexibility to cover longer distance services as required

They will unfortunately be a waste on some branches - Looe and Gunnislake for example (I don't believe they are cleared for either anyway), while Ok for Falmouth and Newquay. I still feel that the Turbos should be working in Devon, while the far more suitable 158s should be used on the longer distance Cardiff - Portsmouth. Money spent on them or not, they are still not as suitable for the route as a 158 is. Effectively all you are doing is a like for like swap between Exeter and Bristol, and still freeing up the Pacers. Then again, the lucky residents of Severn Beach have gone from 143's at the start of the FGW franchise to 166s in 2020.

 

[northernbelle]

They will unfortunately be a waste on some branches - Looe and Gunnislake for example (I don't believe they are cleared for either anyway), while Ok for Falmouth and Newquay. I still feel that the Turbos should be working in Devon, while the far more suitable 158s should be used on the longer distance Cardiff - Portsmouth. Money spent on them or not, they are still not as suitable for the route as a 158 is. Effectively all you are doing is a like for like swap between Exeter and Bristol, and still freeing up the Pacers. Then again, the lucky residents of Severn Beach have gone from 143's at the start of the FGW franchise to 166s in 2020.

There aren't enough 158s to provide the necessary 5-car capacity on the Cardiff to Portsmouth line and no prospect of any being made available by another franchise in the short to medium term. While I agree that Turbos aren't the most suitable stock for that route, they are a way of providing desperately needed extra coaches on trains that were known to be pretty full throughout their journey. Some expenditure on the forthcoming interior changes will help to improve the experience, I'm sure.

It doesn't seem sensible to have a mixed 158/16x operation in the Bristol area given their incompatibility - much more efficient use of the fleet being made possible by being able to split and join as required during the day. Concentrating all 15x types in the Exeter area provides similar efficiency in that area.

More widely in the Bristol area, the Turbos are pretty much the suitable train for all the other routes such as the Weston - Gloucester axis, Severn Beach line, Melksham and others. Given the high volumes of short journeys and footfall on and off at various stations, dwell time is a key consideration and the 158s do not perform well in this regard.

The truth is that Cardiff - Pompey ultimately requires something along the lines of a Turbostar - suitable for high footfall and intense dwell activity but also providing a reasonable travelling ambience. As it stands, this type of rolling stock is simply not available in the volume required to provide the necessary capacity.

 

[supervc-10]

I don't think the Turbos are inherently a problem on the Cardiff-Portsmouth run, but they just need a proper refurbishment to a Turbostar like 2+2 interior. But that would cause a loss in seating capacity, which causes a problem.

What I really think the route needs would be new stock with a layout more like TfW's forthcoming Civities- 2+2, doors at 3rds, and gangways. Preferably with 6-car trains, although I'm not sure they would fit everywhere.

 

[The Ham]

I don't think the Turbos are inherently a problem on the Cardiff-Portsmouth run, but they just need a proper refurbishment to a Turbostar like 2+2 interior. But that would cause a loss in seating capacity, which causes a problem.

What I really think the route needs would be new stock with a layout more like TfW's forthcoming Civities- 2+2, doors at 3rds, and gangways. Preferably with 6-car trains, although I'm not sure they would fit everywhere.

Shouldn't be a problem, SWR have several stations which frequently see trains which are too long for the platforms (some being 12 coach trains at a station which can fit 9 or less, with one example having ~800,000 passengers a year). As such being 1 coach too long wouldn't really be too bad.

There just needs to be good signs & announcements as well as being limited to those stations with less than 1 million passengers a year (which I'd guess would be the case for the stations in question).

 

[PHILIPE]

They will unfortunately be a waste on some branches - Looe and Gunnislake for example (I don't believe they are cleared for either anyway), while Ok for Falmouth and Newquay. I still feel that the Turbos should be working in Devon, while the far more suitable 158s should be used on the longer distance Cardiff - Portsmouth. Money spent on them or not, they are still not as suitable for the route as a 158 is. Effectively all you are doing is a like for like swap between Exeter and Bristol, and still freeing up the Pacers. Then again, the lucky residents of Severn Beach have gone from 143's at the start of the FGW franchise to 166s in 2020.

The 158s are not cleared to Newquay but are and have worked to St Ives as well as Falmouth which would use 3 and possibly 4 in the Summer. The availability of sufficient 158s on the Cardiff to Pompeys has been done to death already

 

[Anonymous10]

There aren't enough 158s to provide the necessary 5-car capacity on the Cardiff to Portsmouth line and no prospect of any being made available by another franchise in the short to medium term. While I agree that Turbos aren't the most suitable stock for that route, they are a way of providing desperately needed extra coaches on trains that were known to be pretty full throughout their journey. Some expenditure on the forthcoming interior changes will help to improve the experience, I'm sure.

It doesn't seem sensible to have a mixed 158/16x operation in the Bristol area given their incompatibility - much more efficient use of the fleet being made possible by being able to split and join as required during the day. Concentrating all 15x types in the Exeter area provides similar efficiency in that area.

More widely in the Bristol area, the Turbos are pretty much the suitable train for all the other routes such as the Weston - Gloucester axis, Severn Beach line, Melksham and others. Given the high volumes of short journeys and footfall on and off at various stations, dwell time is a key consideration and the 158s do not perform well in this regard.

The truth is that Cardiff - Pompey ultimately requires something along the lines of a Turbostar - suitable for high footfall and intense dwell activity but also providing a reasonable travelling ambience. As it stands, this type of rolling stock is simply not available in the volume required to provide the necessary capacity.

I believe tfw 158s should be available within the next few years which would make I believe at least 20 units available

 

[Clarence Yard]

Destined elsewhere at the moment. It's some of the EMR ones that would interest FG, due to the engine type but the DfT currently want to send them elsewhere.

But my previous remarks on Pompey-Cardiff still apply - end door stock isn't ideal for performance reasons. It really needs a 5 car 23m set with 1/3 - 2/3 doors, at least two (preferably 3) WC and 2+2 seating throughout.

 

[CC 72100]

Destined elsewhere at the moment. It's some of the EMR ones that would interest FG, due to the engine type but the DfT currently want to send them elsewhere.

But my previous remarks on Pompey-Cardiff still apply - end door stock isn't ideal for performance reasons. It really needs a 5 car 23m set with 1/3 - 2/3 doors, at least two (preferably 3) WC and 2+2 seating throughout.

185s with 2 additional centre cars then!

 

[Clarence Yard]

A reseated HyDrive 165 or 166 3 car with 2 x reseated 465 trailers, actually.

185 have been looked at - too heavy, won't meet the timings required and, at 6 cars, too long. Not enough of them either.

 

[CC 72100]

A reseated HyDrive 165 or 166 3 car with 2 x reseated 465 trailers, actually.

185 have been looked at - too heavy, won't meet the timings required and, at 6 cars, too long. Not enough of them either.

Shame - on paper the 185s seem ideal.

I just hope that if the turbo project does go through that they have enough grunt to haul 2 (presumably unpowered) trailers - they do not exactly set the world alight with acceleration at present and are slower off the mark than (Cummins) 158s.

Anyway, I appreciate we're going off-thread here, so good news on extra 2+4s.

 

[supervc-10]

Shouldn't be a problem, SWR have several stations which frequently see trains which are too long for the platforms (some being 12 coach trains at a station which can fit 9 or less, with one example having ~800,000 passengers a year). As such being 1 coach too long wouldn't really be too bad.

There just needs to be good signs & announcements as well as being limited to those stations with less than 1 million passengers a year (which I'd guess would be the case for the stations in question).

It's less the SDO issues, but the hanging off the end of platforms causing issues with signalling/level crossings etc. Trowbridge rings a bell? Can't remember exactly where, but I think it was one of the stations between Bath and Westbury.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The route is a 5 x 23m railway. From memory Filton Abbey Wood, Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge, Warminster all have 5 car platforms. The Turbo performance is better than a 158 except where stations are extremely close together (like the Severn Beach line) but even then it’s partly down to driving technique. Remember Turbos were designed for fast sprints between suburban stations on the GWML, so they’re not exactly sluggish (the clue’s in the name!)

Covid notwithstanding, the passenger overcrowding problem has been pretty much solved by 5-car trains, so we just need a better quality interior, a first class offering and ideally through gangwaying. Presumably the Hydrive project will deliver all that.

 

[CC 72100]

The route is a 5 x 23m railway. From memory Filton Abbey Wood, Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge, Warminster all have 5 car platforms. The Turbo performance is better than a 158 except where stations are extremely close together (like the Severn Beach line) but even then it’s partly down to driving technique. Remember Turbos were designed for fast sprints between suburban stations on the GWML, so they’re not exactly sluggish (the clue’s in the name!)

Covid notwithstanding, the passenger overcrowding problem has been pretty much solved by 5-car trains, so we just need a better quality interior, a first class offering and ideally through gangwaying. Presumably the Hydrive project will deliver all that.

Oldfield Park and Freshford are also 5 car platforms, the latter recently extended from 3 car to 5 car platforms.

I'd contest the quicker than 158 argument- they don't always feel it, except the 165s which seem equivalent.

 

[MML]

Exmouth - Paignton appears to be operated by 150 and Pacers formed into 2 x 2-car formations. Wouldn't it be better to replace them, given the speed of the 158s would be beneficial on the mainline and corridor connection would benefit the 4-car formation.
Pacers for scrap and the 150s for the Branch lines.

 

[CC 72100]

Exmouth - Paignton appears to be operated by 150 and Pacers formed into 2 x 2-car formations. Wouldn't it be better to replace them, given the speed of the 158s would be beneficial on the mainline and corridor connection would benefit the 4-car formation.
Pacers for scrap and the 150s for the Branch lines.

158 door cycles aren't the quickest (take a long time to open) and they're not the easiest to board - given the pushchairs etc. on that line, the openness of the 150 saloon and 'speed' of the doors is probably preferable.

 

[43 302]

Just seen a video on Twitter from today of a green PC at Long Rock attaching to a blue TGS, possibly the next set to Doncaster I think. Can't see anything on RTT though.

 

[43096]

Just seen a video on Twitter from today of a green PC at Long Rock attaching to a blue TGS, possibly the next set to Doncaster I think. Can't see anything on RTT though.

The announcement recently was that three extra sets are being converted and there's three sets already at Wabtec for conversion.

EDIT: there are some (more!) spare trailers for conversion as well, so might be them?

 

[43 302]

The announcement recently was that three extra sets are being converted and there's three sets already at Wabtec for conversion.

EDIT: there are some (more!) spare trailers for conversion as well, so might be them?

Quite possibly then.