Travelling on Crosscountry?

[DB]

I believe it's up to each TOC to negotiate individually.

If so, then that's down ton the government - with the current level of control they could have insisted on a joint approach.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You should not be able to book walk up tickets if the train is full

Until there are viable alternative non-IC services on all corridors (e.g. what would you do for Didcot-Swindon?) I will have to disagree with you on that one. We have a walk-up railway here. Pathetic attempts at managing capacity for purported Covid-19 reasons (it's the new "sorry, data protection" lame duck of an excuse) are no justification for abandoning that.

It’s not that complex.

Making services reservation compulsory makes the railway even less attractive to car users (as if it needed any help!) but you're correct that it needn't be complex. However the way XC have done this is truly preposterous with their mixed messaging.

They claim on the one hand that reservations are "mandatory" (timetable data and thus booking engines) and "needed" (their website), and yet on the other hand they admit that there are specific areas left for those without reservations.

They could hardly have made more of a dog's breakfast of it if they tried. So they have succeeded in making something that is inherently anti-passenger but simple, into something that is confusing and even more anti-passenger.

Most of the continent manages this way.

Ah, this old chestnut. Well, by continental standards we wouldn't need defensive/professional driving... Multi-person cab occupancy (and thus training) and revenue inspection could have continued throughout the entire pandemic... We'd have regional stoppers on all IC routes, thus being unable to get a reservation on an IC service would simply mean a bit of an inconvenience rather than potentially being "unable" to travel...

These comparisons verge on being totally pointless given the disparities in the operating models and approaches to public transport in other European countries.

The issue really is the restricted capacity.

That's the biggest issue, but it is significantly exacerbated by XC's mixed messaging and lies. The only things that baffle me are that the DfT are happy to let XC throw away revenue by telling passengers to get lost, and precisely why XC management have been sitting apparently doing nothing whilst LNER, to their credit, updated their reservation system ages ago to allow near 50% capacity.

 

[yorkie]

Problem is, we are where we are with XC.

Does anyone require any advice for a journey with XC?

If not, I think we're done with this thread (but if anyone wishes to propose solutions, please do! As long as they are posted in the appropriate forum section )

 

[Sniffingmoose]

It does really feel like no one cares. It gives fuel to people who have views that the goverment only care about London. As you all know Crosscountry links up Britains biggest centres of population outside London.

From my point of view, Crosscountry in the only operator from my home station, Burton on Trent, its not good for the town. I have been put off travelling since before the lockdown. However I am going to take a trip this week down to Burton station and see what is happening on the ground. The East Midlands Railway staff at Burton station are excellent and go out of their way to help the public in all sorts of ways.

I, like most passangers dont want to book or risk being refused travel if I am doing 10min short journeys such as Burton to Derby or Tamworth. Its not good. If you are going to Derby there is an express bus alternative. Most passengers from Burton if they are going just to Derby do traditionally use the jointly run Arriva/Trent Barton X38 express bus that runs every 20min from Burton to Derby but if you are going to Tamworth or Birmingham there is only the train.

 

[alistairlees]

Gosh. It feels a bit like open season on here, what with all the posts above. For the record, I was not trying to justify the CrossCountry position / situation; simply to explain it for the poster to whom I was replying. I'm as aware as anyone of the situation and the issues it causes. I have no idea if those who are posting on here are actually trying to change things (posting on here doesn't count ). Some of us are trying to change things, though. Hopefully this will bear fruit.

 

[Roast Veg]

This thread is very handy for updates on the situation, which has already changed once. I'd like to see it remain open.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Yes, the XC situation is a real mess. I've had to advise people on how to use their trains a few times now, with mixed results (most give up any thought of rail on these routes when the situation is explained to them) and the new retail brief doesn't help that much.

By way of a solution, as Alastair, rightly urges us to focus on, wouldn't a good option be simply to designate just a few XC trains as 'Reservation Compulsory', based on loadings data, and the rest as 'Reservation Recommended' (and ideally then just the busiest sections of those trains eg. Burton and Bristol to New Street...). This would then help those who use itinerary-specific booking engines (ie in practice all of them) by bringing up some usable itineraries, ie. do the same as WC are doing.

It does seem crazy to make eg. Bournemouth - Brockenhurst reservation compulsory, for example, simple because it is the XC default in the National Reservations System.

More controversially, if Reservation genuinely is to be compulsory going forward on at least some trains, some arrangement is going to be needed with the conductors to enforce it (as it enforced on the SNCF, Trenitalia etc. trains that Alastair is thinking of). But since it seems unlikely that this could be made to work in reality, best to drop Reservation Obligatory altogether and rely on the public to self-distance themselves, by getting the train behind or travelling a different way?

 

[DB]

Yes, the XC situation is a real mess. I've had to advise people on how to use their trains a few times now, with mixed results (most give up any thought of rail on these routes when the situation is explained to them) and the new retail brief doesn't help that much.

By way of a solution, as Alastair, rightly urges us to focus on, wouldn't a good option be simply to designate just a few XC trains as 'Reservation Compulsory', based on loadings data, and the rest as 'Reservation Recommended' (and ideally then just the busiest sections of those trains eg. Burton and Bristol to New Street...). This would then help those who use itinerary-specific booking engines (ie in practice all of them) by bringing up some usable itineraries, ie. do the same as WC are doing.

It does seem crazy to make eg. Bournemouth - Brockenhurst reservation compulsory, for example, simple because it is the XC default in the National Reservations System.

More controversially, if Reservation genuinely is to be compulsory going forward on at least some trains, some arrangement is going to be needed with the conductors to enforce it (as it enforced on the SNCF, Trenitalia etc. trains that Alastair is thinking of). But since it seems unlikely that this could be made to work in reality, best to drop Reservation Obligatory altogether and rely on the public to self-distance themselves, by getting the train behind or travelling a different way?

No, it wouldn't make sense to make reservations compulsory anywhere- that's a slippery slope.

Plus in the case of dome stations, such as Burton, XC operates all services do there are no alternatives.

 

[choochootrain]

1S45 0927 Plymouth to Edinburgh delayed at Bristol Temple Meads today booting off pax without reservations/allocations. Single voyager ? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C86749/2020-08-28/detailed

If I was on that train, I would simply refuse to move, what really would Crosscountry do? Delay the train for hours?

 

[Starmill]

If I was on that train, I would simply refuse to move, what really would Crosscountry do? Delay the train for hours?

Has it actually been confirmed that removing passengers from the train was the cause of the delay, or is that a guess?

 

[BJames]

I've run into the same issue trying to book Nottinghsm to Exeter. Very few advances and on many trains it's already fully booked.

In the end I opted to travel via London and got an advance for £41. Compares with XC quoting £91.

XC demonstrating how to alienate their customers and drive people off rail, at a time when it needs bums on seats.

In future I would try just booking from Derby. Get a walk up NOT-DBY, I used EMR to Derby to avoid the nonsense of a "fully booked" XC between Nottingham and Derby (it wasn't, there was hardly anyone on it, I watched it leave) and used XC only for the necessary bit between Derby and Birmingham. A lot more availability from Derby (although still a lot sold out).

 

[CyrusWuff]

Has it actually been confirmed that removing passengers from the train was the cause of the delay, or is that a guess?

Reported that the TM wasn't prepared to take the train forwards due to the level of crowding.

 

[DB]

Reported that the TM wasn't prepared to take the train forwards due to the level of crowding.

What does this mean thoughin terms of proportion of seats actually occupied?

 

[Starmill]

Reported that the TM wasn't prepared to take the train forwards due to the level of crowding.

Hm, I see. Thank you.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Reading between the lines, does CrossCountry have some sort of industrial relations issue at the minute and this issue of severely restricting capacity is the battleground?

 

[dmncf]

Problem is, we are where we are with XC.

Does anyone require any advice for a journey with XC?

If not, I think we're done with this thread (but if anyone wishes to propose solutions, please do! As long as they are posted in the appropriate forum section )

I was seeking advice for a journey with XC and found this thread helpful - thank you those who have contributed. I decided to ignore the restrictions that prevented me from booking a Super Off Peak Single online to travel on yesterday's 14:27 Plymouth to Leeds HST as far as Bristol Temple Meads. I simply reserved a different train that I didn't travel on. There were no warnings on the platform or in the on-train announcements about reservations, so I didn't worry about getting into trouble. All seats were shown "Available" on the displays above the seats. No ticket checks were made. The mini-buffet was open and we had a very comfortable journey on a very quiet train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure why some people are so keen to defend this ridiculous system...

Capacity is restricted simply because they have put restrictions in place which are even more over the top than any other operator.

They are, but even without that XC have a chronic serious overcrowding problem well in excess of any other non-commuter TOC. This being the case, I fail to see any other workable policy, at least for the Voyager services.

IOW, they should probably allow every seat to be reserved with mask use required as per the law, but going compulsory is to me the right way for them as there is no feasible, sensible alternative (bar a return to "key workers only").

 

[DB]

They are, but even without that XC have a chronic serious overcrowding problem well in excess of any other non-commuter TOC. This being the case, I fail to see any other workable policy, at least for the Voyager services.

IOW, they should probably allow every seat to be reserved with mask use required as per the law, but going compulsory is to me the right way for them as there is no feasible, sensible alternative (bar a return to "key workers only").

I don't disagree that they have a capacity problem normally - so why make it worse unnecessarily?

And there are plenty of commuter trains which in normal circumstances are at least as busy as XC services, albeit mostly over shorter distances.

The whole distancing thing is not compatible with a usable railway as passenger numbers start to increase again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree that they have a capacity problem normally - so why make it worse unnecessarily?

Because with COVID knocking around trains packed with standees are not an acceptable situation as they would near-guarantee spread. Most TOCs, even those which did have a pre-COVID problem with excessive overcrowding, seem to be avoiding it reasonably well due to the absence of commuters. XC's overcrowding problem isn't with commuters (though they make it worse) and so it is the only sensible option.

 

[DB]

Because with COVID knocking around trains packed with standees are not an acceptable situation as they would near-guarantee spread. Most TOCs, even those which did have a pre-COVID problem with excessive overcrowding, seem to be avoiding it reasonably well due to the absence of commuters. XC's overcrowding problem isn't with commuters (though they make it worse) and so it is the only sensible option.

It's reported that they are going way beyond just not allowing standing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's reported that they are going way beyond just not allowing standing.

Yes, and I don't agree with that excessive approach.

 

[Starmill]

They are, but even without that XC have a chronic serious overcrowding problem well in excess of any other non-commuter TOC. This being the case, I fail to see any other workable policy, at least for the Voyager services.

IOW, they should probably allow every seat to be reserved with mask use required as per the law, but going compulsory is to me the right way for them as there is no feasible, sensible alternative (bar a return to "key workers only").

The claim above was that only 20% of seats are going to be bookable. That seems to check out to me if only socially distanced seats in F, D and C are available to standard class passengers, on trains which mostly have 8, 9 or 10 carriages?

 

[father_jack]

The claim above was that only 20% of seats are going to be bookable. That seems to check out to me if only socially distanced seats in F, D and C are available to standard class passengers, on trains which mostly have 8, 9 or 10 carriages?

Yes @Starmill that was me saying that. The point being if a 4 turns up vice 8 and you have to put them all into one set the social distancing goes to hell in a handcart. Until the government guidance lets you sit next to a stranger it's what we're stuck with.

 

[Starmill]

Yes @Starmill that was me saying that. The point being if a 4 turns up vice 8 and you have to put them all into one set the social distancing goes to hell in a handcart. Until the government guidance lets you sit next to a stranger it's what we're stuck with.

The same would happen on an LNER service if it were formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.

 

[father_jack]

The same would happen on an LNER service if it were formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.

Indeed, which illustrates what a huge issue this is contrary to the throwaway attitudes shown by some tuned in here

 

[plugwash]

It seems to me that the soloution would be to plan a timetable where they can realiablly deliver the planned train lengths, even if that means a smaller number of services total so they can keep spare units on hand.

 

[yorkie]

Yes @Starmill that was me saying that. The point being if a 4 turns up vice 8 and you have to put them all into one set the social distancing goes to hell in a handcart. Until the government guidance lets you sit next to a stranger it's what we're stuck with.

There is no rule against sitting next to a stranger.

We are asked to socially distance "where possible", but in reality it's not always possible.

Indeed it is commonplace in many countries.

 

[nedchester]

There is no rule against sitting next to a stranger.

We are asked to socially distance "where possible", but in reality it's not always possible.

Indeed it is commonplace in many countries.

Exactly. If the Government want to get people travelling by train again and going back to work they need to instruct the train companies (especially LNER, AXC, AWC) to abandon their compulsory seat reservations. People can indeed sit next to each other on public transport in Europe so why not here?

 

[35B]

Exactly. If the Government want to get people travelling by train again and going back to work they need to instruct the train companies (especially LNER, AXC, AWC) to abandon their compulsory seat reservations. People can indeed sit next to each other on public transport in Europe so why not here?

And, with government blessing, they do sit next to each other on aircraft - so why not trains or buses?

 

[Mag_seven]

And, with government blessing, they do sit next to each other on aircraft - so why not trains or buses?

Particularly since face coverings have become mandatory (face coverings are recommended by the WHO to be used in settings where social distancing isn't possible like trains / public transport)