Future of Class 15x units

[43096]

I don't know who has fallen for this sales pitch, but it's fantasy.

The Civity DMU stock will not and cannot be converted to electric* without extensive expenditure. They're fitted with mechanical transmission and final drives which will need to be replaced alongside the removal of the engines and fuel tanks, there's no pantograph well vehicles in their formation, so there will need to be bodywork modifications (with subsequent interior changes) to allow the pantograph to be fitted, plus the necessary HV wiring to take 25kV from the pantograph to the transformer.

* I suspect the intermediate motor vehicle from the Class 195/1 family could be converted to an unpowered trailer and inserted into the 3 car Class 331 fleet to make them up to more Class 331/1 4 car units.

I doubt that last part would be easy, either, as I'm sure I've read elsewhere that the 331s have 110V electrical systems and the 195s are 24V.

We really should not be building ANY diesel mechanical/hydraulic units - everything should be built at least as diesel electric to allow easier conversion to full electric/hybrid battery/hydrogen/bionic duckweed if needed.

 

[Speed43125]

We really should not be building ANY diesel mechanical/hydraulic units - everything should be built at least as diesel electric to allow easier conversion to full electric/hybrid battery/hydrogen/bionic duckweed if needed.

We are obviously stuck in this hole where Sprinter and Pacer families are coming towards the end of their lives in the next decade or so, but the electrification to replace them with EMUs is not there and the DMUs to replace them are.... either a) too expensive due to Electric transmission (231s)* b) not sustainable long term and hard to justify to leasing companies (Diesel Civity)
In a perfect world we would be stringing up the wires to replace them all with EMUs, but that is slow and is not something to be relied on. Bi-Mode sounds like the obvious solution (even if the offerings now are only FLIRT and AT300), but they are more expensive and the 'excuse' they provide to not bother with further electrification is notable.

Additionally, the next oldest thing after the 150s to not have end doors are the demanded 170s, which presents an issue with cascade for the newer Sprinters (higher geared 158s in particular) in areas such as the Castlefield corridor.

* The fact TfW have gone for a mix of FLIRTs, and relatively cheap, low spec 197s is rather telling. (their decision to remove 175s is something for another place)

 

[Meerkat]

Obviously you don’t really want to do it but can the 150s be refurbished with new engines using what they have learned from the 769s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Obviously you don’t really want to do it but can the 150s be refurbished with new engines using what they have learned from the 769s?

In theory they could- but a mechanical rather than electrical drivetrain means there's not a lot to learn from the 769 project, as the diesel engines are being used in very different ways.
AIUI the hard part would be fitting a newer more efficient engine in the space between the bogies, along with all the exhaust pre-treatment kit required to meet modern emissions standards.

 

[Meerkat]

In theory they could- but a mechanical rather than electrical drivetrain means there's not a lot to learn from the 769 project, as the diesel engines are being used in very different ways.
AIUI the hard part would be fitting a newer more efficient engine in the space between the bogies, along with all the exhaust pre-treatment kit required to meet modern emissions standards.

Probably my lack of knowledge showing here....
Can you take the bogies off old 319s and make 150s DEMUs?
i am assuming there are lines that can’t take a four car 769 (can they be reduced to 3 car?) even if that was proved more economical than keeping 150s going.
Are the emissions controls as tight for a re-engining?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Probably my lack of knowledge showing here....
Can you take the bogies off old 319s and make 150s DEMUs?
i am assuming there are lines that can’t take a four car 769 (can they be reduced to 3 car?) even if that was proved more economical than keeping 150s going.
Are the emissions controls as tight for a re-engining?

Take your medication.

The short answer is no, you can't swap bogies.

The long answer is yes, it could be done but if you want 100mph running you will need to modify the Class 150 bodyshells to provide yaw damper mounting brackets. It doesn't help anyway as the Class 150 drives a Voith two speed hydraulic transmission which in turn drives the wheels through a mechanical final drive (ZF or Gmeinder, I think from memory) so the engine would need to be fitted with an alternator package and the existing transmission/final drive option dropped in the skip. That brings with it the most of the rest of the traction package from a Class 319 and you're back round to building a Class 769.

You also wouldn't want to start with the old GEC traction motors fitted to the Class 319 - think more along the lines of the Renatus project and go for a new Vossloh Kiepe traction system, if you're going to all this trouble.

 

[Meerkat]

So can a 150 last til the ban, can you build a 2 or 3 car 769, or will 170s/19*s have to cascade to the backwaters, backfilled by 769s/more electrificatio?

 

[Speed43125]

So can a 150 last til the ban, can you build a 2 or 3 car 769

The oldest Class 121s lasted just over 50 years (with cannibalization), so with some attrition, I suppose you could keep the best 150/2s until around 2035, or maybe 2040. Politically and in terms of ambience that may be more difficult. You would need to do some good refurbishing of them though, something that they really haven't gotten thus far.

319s cannot be shortened, other Mk.3 EMUs such as 321s can be by removing the trailer to 3 car (eg. 320/4), but is there a pressing need to shorten these units?

 

[Meerkat]

The oldest Class 121s lasted just over 50 years (with cannibalization), so with some attrition, I suppose you could keep the best 150/2s until around 2035, or maybe 2040. Politically and in terms of ambience that may be more difficult. You would need to do some good refurbishing of them though, something that they really haven't gotten thus far.

319s cannot be shortened, other Mk.3 EMUs such as 321s can be by removing the trailer to 3 car (eg. 320/4), but is there a pressing need to shorten these units?

If 150s couldn’t last then something has to replace them on the obscure branches which don’t need, and possibly can’t accept, 4 car trains.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So can a 150 last til the ban, can you build a 2 or 3 car 769, or will 170s/19*s have to cascade to the backwaters, backfilled by 769s/more electrificatio?

I don't see why a Class 150 won't last until the ban, Transport for Wales are the only operator with plans to replace their fleet, and that's at best 3 years away. That releases 36 units that will most likely enter service with Northern, GWR or both. They're all the useful Class 150/2 units with their end gangways which can be used in multiple but can also be semi-permanently reformed into 3 or 4 car units.

If you add in the transfers, some light internal refurbishment, corrosion repairs and a coat of paint over a two year period, that takes you to maybe December 2025 before all the ex TfW units are back in service with other operators, assuming no further delays to their departure from Wales (a big assumption given the infrastructure enhancements on the Valley Lines are not going to plan).

Ten years of service takes you to 2035 and the start of their eventual replacement, 2 to 3 years for ordering, building and introducing into service new rolling stock, with the withdrawal of the Class 150 units happening from 2037 to 2038. I'd plan around having the last units out of service by December 2038 TT change, which gives a bit of flexibility for any delays stopping their final withdrawal to May or December 2039.

The Mk.3 EMU bodyshell is well understood and there were previously well developed plans to keep the Class 321 fleet in service for another two decades at least with the Renatus development too.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't see why a Class 150 won't last until the ban, Transport for Wales are the only operator with plans to replace their fleet, and that's at best 3 years away. That releases 36 units that will most likely enter service with Northern, GWR or both. They're all the useful Class 150/2 units with their end gangways which can be used in multiple but can also be semi-permanently reformed into 3 or 4 car units.

If you add in the transfers, some light internal refurbishment, corrosion repairs and a coat of paint over a two year period, that takes you to maybe December 2025 before all the ex TfW units are back in service with other operators, assuming no further delays to their departure from Wales (a big assumption given the infrastructure enhancements on the Valley Lines are not going to plan).

Ten years of service takes you to 2035 and the start of their eventual replacement, 2 to 3 years for ordering, building and introducing into service new rolling stock, with the withdrawal of the Class 150 units happening from 2037 to 2038. I'd plan around having the last units out of service by December 2038 TT change, which gives a bit of flexibility for any delays stopping their final withdrawal to May or December 2039.

The Mk.3 EMU bodyshell is well understood and there were previously well developed plans to keep the Class 321 fleet in service for another two decades at least with the Renatus development too.

Cheers. So better to get on with a good spruce up and maybe reliability improvements and they will last long enough to financially justify that.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't see why a Class 150 won't last until the ban, Transport for Wales are the only operator with plans to replace their fleet, and that's at best 3 years away. That releases 36 units that will most likely enter service with Northern, GWR or both. They're all the useful Class 150/2 units with their end gangways which can be used in multiple but can also be semi-permanently reformed into 3 or 4 car units.

If you add in the transfers, some light internal refurbishment, corrosion repairs and a coat of paint over a two year period, that takes you to maybe December 2025 before all the ex TfW units are back in service with other operators, assuming no further delays to their departure from Wales (a big assumption given the infrastructure enhancements on the Valley Lines are not going to plan).

I wonder if it would also be possible to fit some additional soundproofing?

Compared to more modern DMUs they're thunderously loud on the inside, which I think is the real passenger comfort issue with these units.

 

[Anonymous10]

Jo

I wonder if it would also be possible to fit some additional soundproofing?

Compared to more modern DMUs they're thunderously loud on the inside, which I think is the real passenger comfort issue with these units.

Honestly I don't find it to annoying but I'm used to them as from Wales but honestly much nicer than 153s sound wise but if I had to catch it for hours yeah I would say that would be a issue

 

[py_megapixel]

Honestly I don't find it to annoying but I'm used to them as from Wales but honestly much nicer than 153s sound wise but if I had to catch it for hours yeah I would say that would be a issue

"Nicer than bad" is not a good thing!!
You might like to compare a 150 to a Turbostar, for example. Turbostars are far better soundproofed, and you can really hear the difference.

 

[Anonymous10]

"Nicer than bad" is not a good thing!!
You might like to compare a 150 to a Turbostar, for example. Turbostars are far better soundproofed, and you can really hear the difference.

Unfortunately I live in West Wales I have to travel half hour by bus to get to a different town Milford haven to be exact (150/158/175 operate from there) or time it very well at mine to see a 158 I won't see a 170 till next year when I travel to Nottingham so I don't have anything overly to compare to

 

[ScottGallagher]

What will happen with routes that don't go near anything electrified to share the burden if you like. Would a hydrogen train or battery train make it from Lancaster to Carlisle up the Cumbrian Coast!!