RDG Changes to Retail Policies from Monday 7th September

[gray1404]

Definitely a complaint to Avanti for the fact their guard did not follow the correct procedure, plus a delay repay claim from WMT. Would have been interesting if questioned on board.

 

[Starmill]

If someone gets on the "wrong" train because they have little choice given the timetable in effect, and then is forced to buy another ticket, the railway industry has generated double sales but without the risk or effort involved in actually attracting another customer.

Same goes for charging someone £10 to refund or amend their ticket. It's not about encouraging people to travel, not while they can still earn money without having the bother of tbat.

 

[nedchester]

Definitely a complaint to Avanti for the fact their guard did not follow the correct procedure, plus a delay repay claim from WMT. Would have been interesting if questioned on board.

Complaint sent to both LNWR & Avanti plus the Delay repay.......will let folk know the outcome.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone have any news regarding whether the arrangements will continue for another week?

It's not until the 14th that Northern run a reasonable timetable; I don't know about other TOCs.

 

[Paul Kelly]

About the Anytime Advance ticket type, it's neither an Advance nor a Walkup as far as I can see. It's not an advance because it doesn't require a reservation and is not binding to a specific train, and it's not a walkup because it must be booked in advance. Maybe an Apex is the best description?

 

[Bletchleyite]

About the Anytime Advance ticket type, it's neither an Advance nor a Walkup as far as I can see. It's not an advance because it doesn't require a reservation and is not binding to a specific train, and it's not a walkup because it must be booked in advance. Maybe an Apex is the best description?

APEXes were the same as Advances (but issued as returns, so you would need the same quota availability in both directions to get one). The BR ticket which is closest to what you mention was the Advance Saver, but even that was fixed-train, though I don't think it was quota controlled, it just had an advance purchase requirement and wasn't I think refundable.

 

[gray1404]

I too was denied access to the 11.07 today by Avanti following cancellation of the 10.46 from Euston. I asked both the Revenue Protection Staff at Euston about ticket acceptance and they knew nothing about it and would not even consider anything different. They are abrupt and lacked the most basic of communication skills and respect. I also asked the Team Leader they he knew nothing of this policy. Shameful.

 

[nedchester]

I too was denied access to the 11.07 today by Avanti following cancellation of the 10.46 from Euston. I asked both the Revenue Protection Staff at Euston about ticket acceptance and they knew nothing about it and would not even consider anything different. They are abrupt and lacked the most basic of communication skills and respect. I also asked the Team Leader they he knew nothing of this policy. Shameful.

Time like me to fire off a complaint to both companies. At least I’ve got my delay repay back off LNWR today.

With the benefit of hindsight I should have found the links on the Avanti website and LNWR websites and just got on the 19:07 with a refusal to pay if challenged.

 

[infobleep]

Seems reasonable to return to something more like normal once service levels do likewise. That appears to be planned for September (but is not everywhere I know).

There will undoubtedly be losers in the situation - for example those who book an Advance and then find that a 'local lockdown' affects their plans. But most 'local lockdowns' do not prevent travel to an area (although it is discouraged), it does prevent travellers visiting other people in their homes, so family and friends trips are affected but not hotel trips.

I suggest, as with international quarantine restrictions which may be imposed mid-travel, that individuals will have to start making risk based decisions based upon their personal circumstances ie can I afford to lose the cost of an Advance, or book (buy on the day) a flexible ticket which will be refundable.

A fleet footed RDG/RSP could introduce local policies - as is hinted at in the phrase above which could also include refunds / amendments to all tickets to stations within an announced lockdown area.

The thing is normal levels of service are not returning. Well not on South Western Railway. There is an increase and Saturday mornings will see more trains it seems but the last service from Waterloo to Portsmouth is still 22:45, an hour earlier than pre covid-19.

Tomorrow if I wish to travel to Bath using a gold card free ticket, only valid on SWR, I can do so using the Great Western Railway services.

From 7th I will only be able to do so if I arrive into Bath after 18:00. Prior to COVID-19 I could get a train that arrives early afternoon and I believe I could return that same evening. Now I can't. My ticket is one of the old South West Trains gold card free tickets so I can imagine they wouldn't lose much sleep I couldn't get somewhere.

 

[gray1404]

It seems to me this policy is being totally ignored now, certainly by Avanti. They are not applying it by default until 6 September when a train is cancelled. Rather they have simply gone back to normal and only accepting passengers when specific ticket acceptance is in place follow an incident.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The thing is normal levels of service are not returning. Well not on South Western Railway. There is an increase and Saturday mornings will see more trains it seems but the last service from Waterloo to Portsmouth is still 22:45, an hour earlier than pre covid-19.

Tomorrow if I wish to travel to Bath using a gold card free ticket, only valid on SWR, I can do so using the Great Western Railway services.

From 7th I will only be able to do so if I arrive into Bath after 18:00. Prior to COVID-19 I could get a train that arrives early afternoon and I believe I could return that same evening. Now I can't. My ticket is one of the old South West Trains gold card free tickets so I can imagine they wouldn't lose much sleep I couldn't get somewhere.

As a non-NSE resident, I haven't got a clue about the detail of what you are saying, but it would appear that your situation is an extreme outlier.

Perhaps if someone were to accurately state what services were running pre-COVID, upto September 7th (or 14th) and after September 7th (or 14th). ie scheduled number of trains per day for each, we could more accurately gauge whether returning to normal T & C's is matched by a corresponding return to normal service.

Given Fraser Hancock's doom and gloom scenario today, that widespread lockdown is likely, perhaps the RDG decision will have to be reversed anyway.

Personally, I won't be booking anything which isn't 100% refundable for the foreseable future (ie until next summer). If the government, DfT, or RDG want me to spend money to save the economy, they should get their 'stuff' together.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not prepared to discuss such a ludicrous claim here; it needs to be made in the Covid section and I would happily argue on there.

Getting back on topic, there really isn't anything that can be done to get rogue TOCs like Avanti to adhere to the rules. They are no different to Virgin in this respect. Nor will their gateline staff
consistently behave in an appropriate manner. It just isn't going to happen.

However anyone who is charged is able to seek a refund and apology and can escalate the matter to the Ombudsman and any other relevant bodies.

If you are denied access to the train it's difficult to do anything other than complain and obtain delay compensation.

If only we had an effective regulator/ombudsman with teeth who could actually do something...

If only the rail industry had appropriate safeguards in their recruitment processes and appropriate investigatory and disciplinary measures in place to deal with such incidents..

Other industries manage it. Do I think either of things will ever happen in the rail industry? No. Absolutely not, not unless there are unforseeable drastic changes.

Nothing is going to change.

Please do keep us informed of the responses you receive.

 

[gray1404]

I agree with Yorkie. Nothing is going to change.

The other issue is that even if a customer pays more when incorrectly denied access to a train, there is no assurances the likes of Avanti will refund the customer or that the Rail Ombudsman will uphold the customer's complaint thus instructing the TOC to issue a refund/compensation to the amount overcharged. This was the situation I was in yesterday and, given the prospect of being £60 ish down, I decided not to risk it.

 

[infobleep]

As a non-NSE resident, I haven't got a clue about the detail of what you are saying, but it would appear that your situation is an extreme outlier.

Perhaps if someone were to accurately state what services were running pre-COVID, upto September 7th (or 14th) and after September 7th (or 14th). ie scheduled number of trains per day for each, we could more accurately gauge whether returning to normal T & C's is matched by a corresponding return to normal service.

Given Fraser Hancock's doom and gloom scenario today, that widespread lockdown is likely, perhaps the RDG decision will have to be reversed anyway.

Personally, I won't be booking anything which isn't 100% refundable for the foreseable future (ie until next summer). If the government, DfT, or RDG want me to spend money to save the economy, they should get their 'stuff' together.

It maybe an edge caas but that was because it is one I know about.

I'm sure there are examples which are not edge ones.

 

[lightbulb]

Not sure if this is off-topic, but I bought Advance Singles (with Disabled Persons Railcard) for a friend travelling Exmouth - Luton on Monday 14th September, and returning Friday 18th. He is now thinking of staying until Friday 25th, and travelling on the same trains back as the 18th. The fare on 25th is around £5 more. If rebooked today for the 25th, do I pay the difference? Is there a £10 fee? If I leave it until tomorrow (7th) do the rules change?

 

[alistairlees]

Not sure if this is off-topic, but I bought Advance Singles (with Disabled Persons Railcard) for a friend travelling Exmouth - Luton on Monday 14th September, and returning Friday 18th. He is now thinking of staying until Friday 25th, and travelling on the same trains back as the 18th. The fare on 25th is around £5 more. If rebooked today for the 25th, do I pay the difference? Is there a £10 fee? If I leave it until tomorrow (7th) do the rules change?

The rules change for tickets purchased on or after 7th September. Your tickets were purchased before then, so the current rules apply.

 

[lightbulb]

Thanks! So do the current rules mean that I would pay the difference between the two Advance singles without any further fee? If so, would it be better to put the original Advance single in for a (fee free) refund, and purchase the new ticket, or is the original ticket counted as "part exchange" for the new ticket, so I simply pay the difference? I'd rather the latter, so I don't have to send the original ticket in the post for a refund.

 

[Eboordna]

The rail industry does treat passengers in an appalling manner at times; none of this surprises me.

If questioned, officially they will day they have ticket acceptance in place.

Anyone who is charged would be refunded if they spend enough of their time chasing it, which may involve referring the case to the Ombudsman, but in many cases the value of their time will exceed the value of any sun recovered.

There is no convenience for staff who mistreat passengers or don't read the relevant briefings; there is no concequence for TOCs who fail to brief their staff, or have adequate safeguards in place to avoid mistreating passengers.

People talk about reforming aspects of the rail industry but the way it treats customers, especially over ticketing matters, has to be top of the list. But it won't happen, at least not in any meaningful way.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, and there is no-one who has the desire, the knowledge and the power to do anything about it (some people/organisations have one or two of those qualities, but not all three!)

As things currently stand, I believe nothing is going to change in this area.

The attitude comes from (near) the top at certain TOCs, and even other TOCs have had problems convincing them that this policy was requested by DfT, agreed by all owning groups and TOCs and is not for any individual (no matter how senior) to overrule. I have all three of the qualities listed within my TOC (although making every front line staff member read policy briefs is a challenge) but I don't have the power to enforce it elsewhere - believe me there are a small number of us in the industry pushing for real change but there are too many old boys that are narrow minded and just like to keep the customer unfriendly policies without seeing the long term effects.

 

[yorkie]

The attitude comes from (near) the top at certain TOCs, and even other TOCs have had problems convincing them that this policy was requested by DfT, agreed by all owning groups and TOCs and is not for any individual (no matter how senior) to overrule. I have all three of the qualities listed within my TOC (although making every front line staff member read policy briefs is a challenge) but I don't have the power to enforce it elsewhere - believe me there are a small number of us in the industry pushing for real change but there are too many old boys that are narrow minded and just like to keep the customer unfriendly policies without seeing the long term effects.

Understood; many thanks for your efforts

 

[nedchester]

Complaint sent to both LNWR & Avanti plus the Delay repay.......will let folk know the outcome.

Finally got a response and an apology from Avanti:

I hope this email finds you well.

Thanks for your patience while we were investigating your concerns.

I can see that your ticket was valid on West Midlands Trains / London Northwestern Railway services only. Under normal circumstances, in the case of cancellation, you would have not been allowed to board an alternative Avanti train. However, the policies were temporarily revised (due to the pandemic), allowing operator restricted ticket holders to travel with various operators during disruption.

I appreciate the inconvenience caused by the station team's error and I hope you will accept my apologies. Our people do their best to provide outstanding service across our business. We want to give all our customers the best experience possible here at Avanti West Coast. That's why I'm disappointed to hear that the station team failed to adhere to the revised policies.

We'll pass the details of your experience on to the station team. Please be confident that we'll take your comments seriously.

As mentioned in our previous email, you may wish to claim Delay Repay compensation from West Midlands Trains, if you haven't already.

Thanks for taking the time to write to us. We appreciate your comments as they help us to understand how we can improve our services. We look forward to welcoming you onboard soon.

Yours sincerely

Malwina Chrobakiewicz
Customer Resolutions Adviser

 

[Starmill]

I appreciate the inconvenience caused by the station team's error and I hope you will accept my apologies.

That's it? Goodness.

I'm sure you could choose to travel on one of their trains, refuse to pay for your journey, and then at the end of the matter claim that it was an error that you decided to travel for free and offer them your apologies, and nothing else, and they would simply let that be.

 

[nedchester]

That's it? Goodness.

I'm sure you could choose to travel on one of their trains, refuse to pay for your journey, and then at the end of the matter claim that it was an error that you decided to travel for free and offer them your apologies, and nothing else, and they would simply let that be.

To be honest I didn't expect anything else than just an apology.

I got my Delay Repay from WMR so not sure there was much else they could have done. My only regret is ignoring the guard and just getting on the 19:07 to Liverpool.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin would probably have sent a £50 RTV as a goodwill gesture. A complimentary Avanti ticket would be a suitable thing for Avanti to have given.

 

[yorkie]

Finally got a response and an apology from Avanti:

The moral of the story? Travel anyway; let them charge you and insist on a refund.

It is disappointing Avanti are not going to compensate you for their error.

There is no incentive for rogue train companies like Avanti to offer good customer service, as they know most passengers have no option but to travel by train. There is no penalty for breaking any rules or agreements. There is no ombudsman with teeth who can hold them to account.

They ought to instigate a disciplinary investigation into any relevant staff who were involved in the mistreatment, but of course they will not do so.

They will never change their ways!

 

[LowLevel]

I think I'm probably with the OP and would be happy with an apology and acceptance of a mistake being made. I know the railway industry is a bit of an odd ball but staff making an error which put another company's customer at a time penalty due to an exceptional agreement not being followed isn't something I'd expect material compensation for having got the delay relay. You're still technically WMR's customer at the end of the day even if Avanti's representatives have mucked you about.

If you want people to be properly treated as the customer of one railway you need to be rid of the brands.

 

[Camden]

This forum seems quite well organised. Perhaps a campaign gathering evidence that poorly regulated TOCs are making a bad situation worse might be in order.

If the regulator is useless, give Cummings Co the ammo to PHE them. In the move to concessions, a decent regulator will be essential for contractual oversight.

 

[Haywain]

In the move to concessions, a decent regulator will be essential for contractual oversight.

Because the current government are so interested in contractual oversight!

 

[miami]

I appreciate the inconvenience caused by the station team's error and I hope you will accept my apologies

Compare this with the groveling letters people are encouraged to write when they are accidentally in the wrong: "I'm terribly sorry about my grave error of getting off the train at St Erth instead of Hayle, I appreciate it was entirely my fault for getting the wrong train with my £530 ticket, If you could find some way of charging me a large 3 figure sum for my callous oversight this one time I will be forever grateful m'lud *tip hat*"

Every time I see a case like this I can't help but think "I hope the railway completely shuts down". It's rotten to the core.

 

[gray1404]

Avanti West Coast have now replied to me stating that the ticket acceptance with other operators on 25 August 2020 only applied when it was not possible to make the journey with another operator. Talk about shifting the goal posts again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti West Coast have now replied to me stating that the ticket acceptance with other operators on 25 August 2020 only applied when it was not possible to make the journey with another operator. Talk about shifting the goal posts again!

That was absolutely the intent of it, though I think the actual wording differed and so people could get away with taking the mick, i.e. buying a LNR Only ticket with every intention of using Avanti.