about SBB passenger fleet

[Stephen Lee]

Knowing that SBB has ordered 29 Stadler EC250 with an option of further 92 as well as 62 twindexx swiss express from Bombardier. Is it for both fleet renewal as well as the passenger growth due to the alp transit plan including the base tunnels.......

 

[Alfonso]

Knowing that SBB has ordered 29 Stadler EC250 with an option of further 92 as well as 62 twindexx swiss express from Bombardier. Is it for both fleet renewal as well as the passenger growth due to the alp transit plan including the base tunnels.......

A bit of both, plus more lines cleared for double deckers, electrification to Munich, better accessibility standards, plus there's little extra cost to chuck an option into a tender Vs the cost of retendering later.

 

[James James]

My understanding is that the Giruno order (EC250) is because they are planning more services up north (possibly all the way up to Hamburg), and down south (Genoa and Bologna). Although the Giruno was only made possible by the new Gotthard tunnel - no more tilt being needed thanks to avoiding the old tunnel.

The Twindexx is a bit more complex: I thought the main reason was to have a high capacity train with higher acceleration and tilt capability (hence higher speeds) - allowing for better timetabling on some of the busiest routes (on these routes the IC2000 stock is already at capacity - so the Twindexx boosts capacity and timetabling). Stock replacement was only a secondary concern at the time they were ordered I thought?

(The new Gotthard tunnel does permit Twindexx and IC2000 operation down to Lugano though - I doubt that that was a major concern in ordering Twindexxes, but single-deck trains down to Lugano tend to be overfilled thanks to the shorter journey times that the new tunnel enabled which is why - at least on weekends - they'll probably start using double deckers on that route.)

That said, domestically the long-term plan is to get rid of all single-deck stock on IC/IR routes (but continuing to use single-deck on international trains and S-Bahn). Which would see the departure of a lot of EW IV/EC single-deck carriages, and requires the Twindexxes - although I believe at least some of the EW IV's will be kept as extension modules for the IC2000 stock - certainly they've publicly confirmed that at least some of these carriages are staying around into the 2030s. Moreover, there are still a number of non-airconditioned Bpm carriages - mostly confined to rush hour extra services - which are supposed to be disappearing ASAP (presumably when the Twindexx is in full operation - I'm not sure if that means now, given that most of the delivered Twindexxes are in service - or later, once all the Twindexxes have been delivered).

 

[Stephen Lee]

My understanding is that the Giruno order (EC250) is because they are planning more services up north (possibly all the way up to Hamburg), and down south (Genoa and Bologna). Although the Giruno was only made possible by the new Gotthard tunnel - no more tilt being needed thanks to avoiding the old tunnel.

The Twindexx is a bit more complex: I thought the main reason was to have a high capacity train with higher acceleration and tilt capability (hence higher speeds) - allowing for better timetabling on some of the busiest routes (on these routes the IC2000 stock is already at capacity - so the Twindexx boosts capacity and timetabling). Stock replacement was only a secondary concern at the time they were ordered I thought?

(The new Gotthard tunnel does permit Twindexx and IC2000 operation down to Lugano though - I doubt that that was a major concern in ordering Twindexxes, but single-deck trains down to Lugano tend to be overfilled thanks to the shorter journey times that the new tunnel enabled which is why - at least on weekends - they'll probably start using double deckers on that route.)

That said, domestically the long-term plan is to get rid of all single-deck stock on IC/IR routes (but continuing to use single-deck on international trains and S-Bahn). Which would see the departure of a lot of EW IV/EC single-deck carriages, and requires the Twindexxes - although I believe at least some of the EW IV's will be kept as extension modules for the IC2000 stock - certainly they've publicly confirmed that at least some of these carriages are staying around into the 2030s. Moreover, there are still a number of non-airconditioned Bpm carriages - mostly confined to rush hour extra services - which are supposed to be disappearing ASAP (presumably when the Twindexx is in full operation - I'm not sure if that means now, given that most of the delivered Twindexxes are in service - or later, once all the Twindexxes have been delivered).

when DB IC2 is introduced in Singen-Zurich Route then there will be EC Single Deck carriages being displaced for National Traffic

 

[James James]

That's true - but I don't think it's significant in the grand scheme of things: 6 carriages X a handful of trains, so maybe 36 carriages - equivalent to less than 4 Twindexxes. Given the Bombardier track record, I'm not even sure if anyone is counting on the IC2 coming here anytime soon.

(It turns out the Girunos will displace the ETR 610 on duties to Italy, which in turn displaces EC carriage currently used on trains Munich, which I suspect will release more EC carriages - those trains tend to be a bit longer, but also less frequent, so the impact is probably similar overall.)

That does at least mean a bunch of the Bpm 51's should be able to leave at the end of this year?

 

[317666]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see some of the EW IVs being demoted to standby coaches, allowing the last of the EW Is/IIs to be retired (and the Bpm 51s as previously mentioned).

 

[James James]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see some of the EW IVs being demoted to standby coaches, allowing the last of the EW Is/IIs to be retired (and the Bpm 51s as previously mentioned).

I haven't seen the EW Is/IIs be used in quite a while - they might actually be gone already. They used to turn up on my commute from time to time (usually IC2000, but not a high speed route - so if an IC2000 on one of the high-speed routes fails they'd take our train an give us the EW I) - but the most recent time we had a replacement train it was a KISS.

However I did still regularly see Bpm 51s, at least until Corona started.

 

[43096]

That's true - but I don't think it's significant in the grand scheme of things: 6 carriages X a handful of trains, so maybe 36 carriages - equivalent to less than 4 Twindexxes. Given the Bombardier track record, I'm not even sure if anyone is counting on the IC2 coming here anytime soon.

(It turns out the Girunos will displace the ETR 610 on duties to Italy, which in turn displaces EC carriage currently used on trains Munich, which I suspect will release more EC carriages - those trains tend to be a bit longer, but also less frequent, so the impact is probably similar overall.)

That does at least mean a bunch of the Bpm 51's should be able to leave at the end of this year?

Don't forget that the IC2 is meant to run hourly throughout from Stuttgart to Zürich, so it will replace the existing "fill in" on the hours when trains don't run through from Stuttgart. When Bombardier will get its act together with IC2 is anyone's guess, though...

 

[James James]

In the latest version of the 2021 timetable, it looks like the SBB are still operating the alternating Singen/Stuttgart trains next year, so I'm guessing they are planning for the IC2 not being available? Certainly the 2021 timetable announcement don't mention this route at all, suggesting no changes (vs announcements for stock changes on other routes, including e.g. Pendolinos for Zurich-Munich and Girunos to the south - although both of those were noteworthy due to journey time reductions).

Based on my back of the envelope calculations, the entire Zurich-Singen+Zurich-Stuttgart rotation does only require 5 trains, although one of those is operated as 8 to 9 carriages (the 17:37 to Singen) instead of 6 carriages. [That's based on looking at all the Zurich departures, and figuring out all the places they end up going - it's 3 hours for a Zurich-Singen-Zurich turn, and 7 hours for Zurich-Stuttgart-Zurich, which also means that a given train will alternate between going to Singen vs Stuttgart.]

 

[Seehof]

Has anybody found that on the top deck of a Twindexx they are very “wobbly” ?!

 

[Austriantrain]

(vs announcements for stock changes on other routes, including e.g. Pendolinos for Zurich-Munich and Girunos to the south - although both of those were noteworthy due to journey time reductions).

Just as an OT note: Zurich - Munich should be another 30 minutes faster in 2022. Line enhancements in Austria are not ready yet (partial doubling between St Margrethen and Bregenz) and there are still issues with ETCS transition at the Swiss-Austrian border.

 

[James James]

Has anybody found that on the top deck of a Twindexx they are very “wobbly” ?!

I certainly didn't notice anything, although I don't have a huge number of samples. Notably, all my journeys went at lower speeds via lots of points (e.g. Zurich HB), which is specifically where they are claimed to be ridiculously wobbly.

That's not to say that it is or was wobblier, but IMHO that's just the usual press jumping on any minor railway isssue phenomenon. If Bombardier is to be believed, it indeed used to be wobblier until a recent software update - and now it's less wobbly than the IC2000 - see under ride comfort:

Swissdosto.ch | Facts & figures

Facts & figures

www.swissdosto.ch

 

[zuriblue]

Has anybody found that on the top deck of a Twindexx they are very “wobbly” ?!

I certainly found it rough, and my friend actually had to go downstairs because she got travel sick. Certainly the IC2000s and the various pendelzugs seem to be much more stable.

 

[dm1]

I certainly found it rough, and my friend actually had to go downstairs because she got travel sick. Certainly the IC2000s and the various pendelzugs seem to be much more stable.

This was accepted by SBB as being a serious problem. Aside from software updates, there were also some changes made to the wheel profile to stop them from hunting as much at low speeds. I think the changes were being rolled out gradually, and I'm not sure how far they are, so it may be luck of the draw which ones you get. I've certainly been seeing more Twindexx trains more recently - including on the IC1, suggesting most of the problems with them have been solved (the Twindexx also suffered from chronic reliability issues, particularly relating to the doors - the IC1 is SBB's flagship route between Zürich and Bern, and SBB have a minimum MDBF value for long distance rolling stock)

 

[zuriblue]

I haven't seen the EW Is/IIs be used in quite a while - they might actually be gone already. They used to turn up on my commute from time to time (usually IC2000, but not a high speed route - so if an IC2000 on one of the high-speed routes fails they'd take our train an give us the EW I) - but the most recent time we had a replacement train it was a KISS.

However I did still regularly see Bpm 51s, at least until Corona started.

Virtually all the EW I/IIs have made their final journey to Thommen in Kaiseraugst (normally being parked up at Stein Sackingen first, there was a company there that was stripping the asbestos out before they went on to the scrapyard) but I think there is a commuter spec EWII set (with power doors) that Basel have as a last resort - you'll very occasionally see it on the IR36 Flugzug over the Frick line to Zürich Flughafen. Bpm 51s are still used quite a bit on the Frick line IR to Zürich HB, normally it's a rake of 3 EW IVs (including the 2 first class coaches) with the remainder made up of Bpm51s, the whole lot hauled normally by a RE420.

 

[Richard Scott]

Virtually all the EW I/IIs have made their final journey to Thommen in Kaiseraugst (normally being parked up at Stein Sackingen first, there was a company there that was stripping the asbestos out before they went on to the scrapyard) but I think there is a commuter spec EWII set (with power doors) that Basel have as a last resort - you'll very occasionally see it on the IR36 Flugzug over the Frick line to Zürich Flughafen. Bpm 51s are still used quite a bit on the Frick line IR to Zürich HB, normally it's a rake of 3 EW IVs (including the 2 first class coaches) with the remainder made up of Bpm51s, the whole lot hauled normally by a RE420.

Any pictures of said stock please as not sure of SBB notation (know what and IC2000 is but not EWI/II/IV)? On Twindexx issue not found them too bad to ride in just that they're usual boring modern units, nothing of any interest there!

 

[30907]

Any pictures of said stock please as not sure of SBB notation (know what and IC2000 is but not EWI/II/IV)? On Twindexx issue not found them too bad to ride in just that they're usual boring modern units, nothing of any interest there!

Have a look here https://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/CH/index_SBB.php

 

[Richard Scott]

Have a look here https://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/CH/index_SBB.php

Thanks that's great, know what they are now!

 

[James James]

In other related news: SBB are starting the tender for new S-Bahn stock, from what I can tell these are initially replacing GTW's at Thurbo, Nina's and NPZ's at RegionAlps, and after that replacing the Flirts all over the place. It sounds like a long-term plan: first units in 2026, but lots of options and even without options, they don't need all those trains that soon (Flirts will start being expired in 2035 - but there are likely to be capacity increases before then requiring new units).

Alstom, Siemens, and of course Stadler, all seem to be in the running. (Stadler would make the most sense in terms of compatibility with the existing units, and they have a good track record so far in Switzerland - and of course most of the population would prefer Stadler given recent experiences with imported trains.)