Diesel loco-hauled trains formed of Mark 3s

[AY1975]

The conventional loco-hauled Mark 3s (as opposed to the Mark 3 Sleepers or HST trailers) were built for the electrified West Coast Main Line and have thus always been mainly hauled by electric rather than diesel locos. By the 1980s BR increasingly regarded its main product on non-electrified InterCity routes as the HST, and the remaining conventional diesel-hauled IC trains were generally formed of Mark 2 stock.

Can you think of any examples of trains that were (or still are) formed partly or entirely of Mark 3s (other than Sleepers) and that were hauled by a diesel loco for all or part of their journey, either under BR or in the privatised era?

The most obvious examples are:

ScotRail push-pull sets in the 1980s (Mark 3s with a Class 47/7 and a Mark 2 DBSO)

Euston-Blackpools, diesel (usually 47) hauled between Preston and Blackpool (I think they were often Mark 3s in their last few years of operation under BR and when Virgin reintroduced them, but were usually Mark 2s in the 1970s and 80s)

Some summer-only CrossCountry trains, such as Manchester-Paigntons, both under BR and under Virgin

Euston-Glasgows diverted via Bolton, the Settle & Carlisle or the Glasgow & South Western

The daytime Euston-Inverness "Clansman", diesel (probably a 47 at least latterly) between Carlisle (or Mossend Yard?) and Inverness (I think it was usually Mark 2s but may have been Mark 3s in its last few years of operation?)

Transport for Wales's Manchester-Llandudno and Holyhead-Cardiff services

Chiltern loco-hauleds

The Great Western "Night Riviera" Sleeper (which you can include as it is formed of Mark 3 seated coaches as well as Sleepers). Until last year there was also a Penzance-Exeter formed of the Sleeper seated coaches.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Generally not for the public, but DB Schenker’s Management Train.

DRS had a go at the cruise liner market to Southampton using a rake of Mk3s.

Niche, but remember loco hauled HST sets (no power cars) working through Bath in the 1980s

Did any of the Greater Anglia Mk3 rakes make it to Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth on summer extras?

The LSL service over the S&C this summer uses Mk3s

 

[CW2]

Euston - Holyhead / Llandudno (pre HST)
Euston - Stranraer (daytime and overnight services)
Kings X - Bradford (hauled from Leeds)

The Clansman was normally a 47/4 to/from Mossend Yard.

I'm not sure if there were regular Mk 3 workings on Edinburgh - Carstairs before electrification.
Possibly so.

 

[AY1975]

Euston - Holyhead / Llandudno (pre HST)

I thought Euston-Holyhead was usually Mark 2s before it became HST in about 1991. It was hauled Mark 3s in the summer 2004 timetable after the end of HSTs and before it became Pendolino+57, though.

Around that time you also used to get Euston-Birminghams and Wolverhamptons diverted via the Birmingham-Nuneaton line formed of Mark 3s.

 

[High Dyke]

Did any of the Greater Anglia Mk3 rakes make it to Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth on summer extras?

During the 'Anglia' / 'One' period there was a through Great Yarmouth - London train. It would be diesel hauled from the coast to Norwich where, I believe, an electric loco took the train onward. What stock did it use though?

FROM THE ARCHIVES: Why GA used locomotive-hauled trains

As Greater Anglia prepares to introduce its Class 755 bi-modes, we look to recent times when two locomotive-hauled sets were in action on the Wherry Lines

www.railmagazine.com

Answered my own question with a google of this blog.

Summer Saturdays in Anglia- 10 years ago.

Comment, opinion, photographs and trip reports relating to the railways of the UK, Europe and the World.

trains-today.blogspot.com

 

[supervc-10]

I had a lovely ride up from Marylebone on the Wrexham and Shropshire Mk.3s, propelled by a 67. That was when it was still the charter stock in BR blue and grey, and there was a declassified first class coach to sit in!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Then on the flip side there was a large fleet of mk3 Loco hauled stock that throughout its entire career was never electric hauled either when abroad or on its booked turns to the UK!

 

[danielnez1]

A Class 55 did haul a rake of loco hauled MK3s on the ECML at least once:

06/09/1979 - York - uploaded by John Turner, from 53A Models of Hull Collection.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I was thinking the Royal Scotsman but it looks like it's only mk3 sleeper it uses. While searching there were some comments that the royal train used some mk3 carriages but I don't know anything about that service.

 

[Midnight Sun]

During the 'Anglia' / 'One' period there was a through Great Yarmouth - London train. It would be diesel hauled from the coast to Norwich where, I believe, an electric loco took the train onward. What stock did it use though?

FROM THE ARCHIVES: Why GA used locomotive-hauled trains

As Greater Anglia prepares to introduce its Class 755 bi-modes, we look to recent times when two locomotive-hauled sets were in action on the Wherry Lines

www.railmagazine.com

Answered my own question with a google of this blog.

Summer Saturdays in Anglia- 10 years ago.

Comment, opinion, photographs and trip reports relating to the railways of the UK, Europe and the World.

trains-today.blogspot.com

It run by Berney Arms each way formed of Mk3 set with the class 90 still attached, pulled by either a 37 or 47.

 

[BrettSy96]

Generally not for the public, but DB Schenker’s Management Train.

DRS had a go at the cruise liner market to Southampton using a rake of Mk3s.

Niche, but remember loco hauled HST sets (no power cars) working through Bath in the 1980s

Did any of the Greater Anglia Mk3 rakes make it to Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth on summer extras?

The LSL service over the S&C this summer uses Mk3s

I remember one time the 37s with the MK2 short set was slightly changed and there was two 37s Top and Tailing a couple of mk3s and the dvt. Think it only ran for a day or two before the mk2s came back into the set.

 

[xotGD]

The Euston - Shrewsbury services were normally Mark 2s but may have seen the occasional Mark 3 set. 47 forward from Wolverhampton.

 

[DB]

Just to note that the West Coast Mk2 sets mostly had a Mk3 RFM (buffet).

There have been various temporary and one-off trains in various places at various times - e.g. Cargo-D had some Mk3s, and those appeared on a number of charters and people- mover trains, often mixed with Mk2s (e.g. for the Hartlepool tall ships event in 2010(?) when a couple of Mk2/Mk3 sets ran shuttles from Darlington. Also there was the DRS charter set, which didn't get much use for charters but part of it was used, with a Mk2 brake, for the trains run between Workington and Maryport for a while when the road bridge was washed out by flooding. THe Pretendolino, or bits of it, also got hired out sometimes - e.g. part of it (plus the DB DVT and two 67s) worked extra services when part of the Tour de France was held in Yorkshire.

In East Anglia, back about ten years ago there was a short set usually composed of two Mk3s and a DVT, top and tailed by DRS 47s, which worked various services out of Norwich - it was around for a fair while. More recently there have been top and tail longer sets for an event (I forget what) top and tailed by 68s.

Incidentally, to go off at a slight tangent, in BR days any sets containing Mk3s which were diesel hauled almost always used a Class 47. There was no particular reason why other classes such as 45/1 and 50 couldn't be used, but due to where those locos tended to work relative to where the Mk3s were it didn't happen often. 33/4 were occasionlly used in pairs for summer seaside excursions to the SW. Deltics were normally avoided as their ETS comes off the main generator and fluctuates depending on traction demand, and the Mk3s apparently don't like that much.

Since privatisation, the main traction used on Mk3s (apart from 47s) has been 67s (Wales, Wrexham & Shropshire, Chiltern). 68s are also used (Chiltern), and 57s on the Night Riviera and elsewhere. This exludes charters and one-offs which have included various classes, although even there 47/57/67 have usually appeared - either as the train loco or on the back providing the ETS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==

I was thinking the Royal Scotsman but it looks like it's only mk3 sleeper it uses. While searching there were some comments that the royal train used some mk3 carriages but I don't know anything about that service.

Scotsman has two Mk3 sleepers. Northern Bell has two sleepers as well, but those are staff accommodation (and normally only one used at a time). The royal train is mostly Mk3s (all apart from the brake vehicles) - including two ex-prototype, several ex-HST TRUKs and several bespoke new-builds.

Of course, LSL have bought a number of Mk3s - four currently being used between Skipton and Appleby with 47/37/20.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2020 ==

Niche, but remember loco hauled HST sets (no power cars) working through Bath in the 1980s

That was when they were having a problem with lack of serviceable power cars for an extended period. A standard HST trailer set would be top and tailed with a Mk1 BG fitted with a generator to provide 3-phase ETS (there was only one of these, so only ever one set out at a time), and something else the other end - usually seems to have been a Mk2. This meant that the outer ends had standard coupling gear and buffers so any loco could haul the set - from the photos I've seen, it normally seems to have been a 47 or 50, but there was no need for ETS so non-ETS 47s could be used although I'm not sure how often they were.

 

[Stroud Man]

55021 took a short rake of push-pull mk3s up to Oban twice in 1981.

This is my first ever post and, unsure of the rules on such things, I haven't posted a link, but googling "55021 Oban" brings up many images.

Hello, by the way!

 

[DB]

55021 took a short rake of push-pull mk3s up to Oban twice in 1981.

This is my first ever post and, unsure of the rules on such things, I haven't posted a link, but googling "55021 Oban" brings up many images.

Hello, by the way!

Yes, seen photos of those tours - there was an article about it in the Deltic Preservation Society magazine a few years ago. It was very rare for Deltics to work with Mk3s, though and seems to only have happened a handful of times in total.

 

[47827]

I thought Euston-Holyhead was usually Mark 2s before it became HST in about 1991. It was hauled Mark 3s in the summer 2004 timetable after the end of HSTs and before it became Pendolino+57, though.

Around that time you also used to get Euston-Birminghams and Wolverhamptons diverted via the Birmingham-Nuneaton line formed of Mark 3s.

RE The North Wales Coast:
There were a huge number of workings between 1991 and 2004 as well, ranging from boat train reliefs shortly after the hst sets took over the surviving main turns through to vice hst turns and some regular seasonal diagrams. Regular vices and booked turns kicked off more from the Mid 90s and there was often 1 loco hauled set booked to overnight at Holyhead in the last 7/8 years of hst operations. Virtually all traction was eth 47s from RES/EWS or the Virgin fleets although I did have Freightliner/RFD ones on rare occasions and saw an odd 37 turn up since Holyhead drivers signed those until 2001. Most trains were mk3s but there was a lot of Mk2 sets appearing and indeed occasionally booked turns or vices with Mk2 DVT sets with just a Mk3 buffet. This was partly to do with most of trains being timed 110mph between Crewe and Euston as well as the mk3 sets having more suitable layouts/formations for some of the busy services on the coast. I must have had up to a thousand or so runs on the line on IC/Virgin trains in that final decade and a good 80%+ were full mk3 rakes, although we did get a Mk2 BSO brake for a few days vice DVT. Occasionally these workings were 47s south of Crewe too as were dozens of services a week into Euston vice electric (or due to en route failures) from the late 90s once Virgin had a diesel thunderbird fleet covering several WCML locations. Obviously some of those trains produced mk3 stock too but mostly whenever the North West or Scottish services had parts of the run diesel hauled. West Mids services had a 90% Mk2 bias I recall with just an odd working producing mk3 stock since those services were 100mph timed and scheduled for 86s predominantly.

Other regular diversion workings some mentioned up thread included mostly mk3 stock on the S&C diversions and GS&W too in later years (including one mega week in the late 90s). Drags off Preston, Liverpool and Manchester by various routes as mentioned too.

There were also the hst generator sets in the 1980s and early 90s were a Mk2 generator car specially rewired could be hooked up to a hst set minus its power cars and the mk3 trailers used as normal hauled stock in effect. Workings were extensive all over the IC networks with Great Western, Cross Country and East Coast routes all featuring at different stages.

Had a number of runs with mk3 charter stock via Cargo D, Cotswold Rail and DRS. Many were off the beaten track (try the Heart of Wales line or Sleaford incl. run rounds at the station for instance). But the one that stands out is a cold Saturday in 2006 when I had to borrow the original Virgin red WB64 set (just before it was stood down to replace with the pretendolino silver version), to operate a Preston to Dundee/Aberdeen Festive Railtour. FM Rail had most of its mk2s impounded on Oxley as the company was in financial difficulty and a now departed industry friend made arrangements last minute with Virgin to make it happen. A couple of FM mk2s and 47703 had a difficult run from Derby to Wembley via WCML infrastructure problems and joined the freshly cleaned Virgin set (off its booked diagram) in the early hours in London which then ran overnight to Preston. The loco wasn't switched off in about 36 hours and it was a memorable day, despite a few logistical headaches as the seating was planned for mk2s and not every coach was in the right order either.

 

[USRailFan]

Aren't there still Class 68-hauled Mk3 rakes used out of Marylebone?

 

[Mag_seven]

The Glasgow - Euston service that started back from Ayr in the 1980s started just before the Ayr line was electrified and was initially diesel hauled between Ayr and Glasgow. Also in the late 90s Cross Country hired a West Coast Mark 3 set to operate a Manchester to Paignton (I think) summer Saturday extra.

 

[DB]

Aren't there still Class 68-hauled Mk3 rakes used out of Marylebone?

Yes.

Those and the Night Riviera are now the only TOC-operated service using loco-hauled Mk3s.

 

[hexagon789]

ScotRail push-pull sets in the 1980s (Mark 3s with a Class 47/7 and a Mark 2 DBSO)

1979-1990 though a full complement wasn't available until well into 1980. Replaced by 156s by May 1990.

The daytime Euston-Inverness "Clansman", diesel (probably a 47 at least latterly) between Carlisle (or Mossend Yard?) and Inverness (I think it was usually Mark 2s but may have been Mark 3s in its last few years of operation?)

Booked Mk3 stock for one timetable only May 1985-May 1986. Worked as a portion split off a Euston-Glasgow 110mph service and so did not run via Birmingham. The service was downgraded significantly my long after; back to Mk2s, running via Birmingham and running first to Edinburgh before going north to Inverness.

55021 took a short rake of push-pull mk3s up to Oban twice in 1981.

This is my first ever post and, unsure of the rules on such things, I haven't posted a link, but googling "55021 Oban" brings up many images.

Was necessary because there were no ETH 37s available at the time, the ETHELs didn't exist yet, 47s had too high an axle load (117-ton locos). So the 99-ton ETH 55s were perfect.

Can you think of any examples of trains that were (or still are) formed partly or entirely of Mark 3s (other than Sleepers) and that were hauled by a diesel loco for all or part of their journey, either under BR or in the privatised era?

There were also Mk3s in Ireland, introduced from July 1984 and withdrawn completely during 2009. These were all diesel-loco hauled though you might not include these as it's not GB!

 

[USRailFan]

Booked Mk3 stock for one timetable only May 1985-May 1986. Worked as a portion split off a Euston-Glasgow 110mph service and so did not run via Birmingham. The service was downgraded significantly my long after; back to Mk2s, running via Birmingham and running first to Edinburgh before going north to Inverness.

There is video evidence of the 'Clansman' running with a full rake of Mk3s (except the Motorails and BG, of course) in the 91-92 timetable period.

 

[hexagon789]

There is video evidence of the 'Clansman' running with a full rake of Mk3s (except the Motorails and BG, of course) in the 91-92 timetable period.

I don't doubt it was formed of Mk3s but it was only booked in the carriage workings for Mk3 stock 1985-1986. After the demise of the Euston-Stranraer it even became mostly Mk2c stock for a period until it was curtailed to run purely Edinburgh-Inverness.

 

[Richard Scott]

One of the old Platform 5 books has a picture of 45121 leaving Bristol on a rake of mk 3s. May have been the 1988 edition.

 

[DB]

One of the old Platform 5 books has a picture of 45121 leaving Bristol on a rake of mk 3s. May have been the 1988 edition.

Probably one of the summer Saturday ones from Manchester to the seaside.

 

[43096]

Don’t think anyone has mentioned that the Mid Norfolk Railway and the GCRN have offered diesel hauled Mark 3s for some time (pre Covid, anyway).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

One of the old Platform 5 books has a picture of 45121 leaving Bristol on a rake of mk 3s. May have been the 1988 edition.

It's page 39 of the 1988 Combined Volume, yes. The caption says it's the 08.15 Paignton - Manchester "Holidaymaker Express" on 15th August 1987 so it is indeed one of the extras.


Edited to add the date, which I forgot to include earlier! D'oh!

 

[Cowley]

It's page 39 of the 1988 Combined Volume, yes. The caption says it's the 08.15 Paignton - Manchester "Holidaymaker Express" so it is indeed one of the extras.

I think I was on the last Peak hauled passenger service west of Bristol which was 45113 on mk3s to Paignton in August 1988.

 

[USRailFan]

Yes.

Those and the Night Riviera are now the only TOC-operated service using loco-hauled Mk3s.

...and AFAIK they are both diesel hauled all the way

 

[DB]

...and AFAIK they are both diesel hauled all the way

Yes. The only timetabled trains in this country which change locos en route are the Caledonian sleepers.

 

[alistairlees]

I think I was on the last Peak hauled passenger service west of Bristol which was 45113 on mk3s to Paignton in August 1988.

Perfect.