Powers Of Railway Security?

[Islineclear3_1]

I thought the primary role of security staff was to protect the premises (e.g. railway) from crime - not to haul fare-paying passengers off a crowded train that runs 1 per hour

They should not be on a train for crowd control and as for protecting the driver (as in a post above); isn't there a partition/wall that separates the passenger saloon from the cab?

 

[mmh]

They should not be on a train for crowd control and as for protecting the driver (as in a post above); isn't there a partition/wall that separates the passenger saloon from the cab?

If they're not there for crowd control, what are they for?

The guard is more at more potential risk from angry passengers than the driver - their job involves them leaving the train at every station. Neither should be put in a position where they are at excess risk though. To allow everyone on board would anger some passengers. It's a position where they justifiably should have support. In terms of the powers, that support was given by security staff. In their absence I can't picture the result of an attendance by BTP being different.

 

[Class195]

Unfortunately likely to have been worse without them, with a guard and/or driver refusing to go until it's sorted out, which in the absence of the bouncers means waiting for the police to arrive to do, err, exactly the same thing. Same effect, more delay.

The problem isn't the staff or the bouncers, it's the continued extreme version of distancing being mandated.

Eventually it must go, nowhere other than the train is anyone here paying any attention to distancing. The only masks are on tourists from England, and not on many of them this weekend.

But what is an acceptable code of conduct for dealing with a situation like the one at Chester earlier today?

Do you stop the already delayed train and ask people to leave or do you charge down the platform to the doors and start getting people off the crowded service yourself?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2020 ==

Unfortunately likely to have been worse without them, with a guard and/or driver refusing to go until it's sorted out, which in the absence of the bouncers means waiting for the police to arrive to do, err, exactly the same thing. Same effect, more delay.

The problem isn't the staff or the bouncers, it's the continued extreme version of distancing being mandated.

Eventually it must go, nowhere other than the train is anyone here paying any attention to distancing. The only masks are on tourists from England, and not on many of them this weekend.

I thought the primary role of security staff was to protect the premises (e.g. railway) from crime - not to haul fare-paying passengers off a crowded train that runs 1 per hour

They should not be on a train for crowd control and as for protecting the driver (as in a post above); isn't there a partition/wall that separates the passenger saloon from the cab?

I have no idea why there was a security guard at the drivers end of the train but there he was refusing people to enter that door and instead telling people to get on further down the train.

 

[clagmonster]

The byelaws state:
" Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws "

So the forcible ejection is legal iff there is reasonable suspicion of breach of a byelaw.

I think that if the ejected passengers were already on the train, the best argument is this:
" An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances inwhich he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions."
Does maintain social distancing class as in the interests of safety rather than public health? If so, I suspect TfW have acted by the book, albeit I suspect that there may have been better ways of handling the situation.

 

[DavyCrocket]

What actual rights do they have with regards a full train and grabbing passengers from the vestibule and forcing them off said full train and telling them that it is full and they must now wait for the next one (hourly service on the North Wales line) or wait for TFW to procure coaches for those who were left behind.


It all comes across as a bit OTT, despite the concerns of the guard working a packed three car 175.

Why aren’t these hourly services strengthened?

The security staff described above were not British Transport Police but ex nightclub door staff now being contracted work by Transport For Wales and just for clarity, this happened at Chester train station at midday witnessed by myself who was on the platform.

Whilst I may not agree with their actions. If carried out properly, Bylaw 12 would cover an action relating to safety and 24 the enforcement if they refuse.

12 can be a very useful tool.

nightclub staff have power to remove people from licensed premises (licensing act) so I wonder if they are stuck in that rut.

going by the bylaw, would require some explaining and giving of options

 

[Wolfie]

Today at Chester. Platform 4b to be precise.

I think Yorkie is correct, send a FOI request in to find out exactly what powers these security/bouncer contracted staff actually have.

If they got physical in any way put a report in to BTP too, and a SAR for all CCTV coverage.

Oh and ask point blank if they qualify as an "authorised person".

 

[Bikeman78]

But do they have the power to watch a train arrive into the train station and then when realising it’s full start grabbing people and removing them by force?

It all seems OTT and why didn’t the guard stop that many people boarding the train in the first place?

Surely if it’s not safe for the security staff, the train shouldn’t have left the previous station?

Why get involved at all? If the passengers are willing to squeeze on, let them get on with it. The driver and guard can access their respective cabs on a 175 without having to get close to passengers in the rest of the train. Pulling people off a crowded train and making them wait an hour for an equally crowded train is the definition of pointless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why get involved at all? If the passengers are willing to squeeze on, let them get on with it. The driver and guard can access their respective cabs on a 175 without having to get close to passengers in the rest of the train. Pulling people off a crowded train and making them wait an hour for an equally crowded train is the definition of pointless.

That would be possible in England (and is what's happening on all the DOO services at least), but isn't Welsh law different, requiring a higher duty of care?

 

[tomuk]

That would be possible in England (and is what's happening on all the DOO services at least), but isn't Welsh law different, requiring a higher duty of care?

Chester isn't in Wales so Welsh law doesn't apply.

 

[Class195]

Chester isn't in Wales so Welsh law doesn't apply.

Welsh train service going to Wales?

 

[TJM]

The 2m absolute law as suggested in this thread on social distancing is only valid to be enforced by staff in Wales under Welsh law, as there is no such law in England. So why are these hired "experts" kicking people off the train at Chester? And we've yet to find out from the Supreme Court whether such laws should be legally valid in Wales too..

 

[LowLevel]

Why get involved at all? If the passengers are willing to squeeze on, let them get on with it. The driver and guard can access their respective cabs on a 175 without having to get close to passengers in the rest of the train. Pulling people off a crowded train and making them wait an hour for an equally crowded train is the definition of pointless.

If something happens on board they might require access to the saloon. One of the nastiest situations I've had to deal with was on a crush loaded train where some utter **** of a squaddie pulled the cord and brought us to a grinding halt in the middle of nowhere, in the dark, on a train that was over an hour late. I am not a small person and it took me several minutes to force my way through the train to reset it while people were panicking because after the emergency stop they could feel the crush as people tried to make room for me.

I wouldn't allow a train to operate in those conditions at the moment because I wouldn't be willing to force myself down the train if need be regardless of whether the passengers are willing to do so or not - why should we - I am a human being with rights as well? Consequently there needs to be room to move.

As for the legality of preventing access to the train, there may be an argument regarding failing to undertake the contracted service with due care etc etc.

Personally when it comes to making decisions about the safe operating of the train I would bear no consideration to that whatsoever, that is what the company employs legal teams for. If in the guard's judgement in the specific circumstances of the moment the train is full the byelaws entitle them to instruct passengers to leave it and if they refuse to have an appropriate person (I would rather it was a constable as most private security are rubbish) use reasonable force to deal with the matter.

Yesterday I refused upwards of 30 persons access to my train because I couldn't safely store their luggage/pushchairs etc and also ordered a person with a bike (having repeatedly politely asked first) off as well after they decided it was appropriate to wedge it and their bags across my cab door.

I have no doubt that they have legal rights too as a result of purchasing their tickets so I directed them to the customer relations department for redress.

 

[Wolfie]

Welsh train service going to Wales?

In England! By your logic French law should apply on a Eurostar train in the platform at St Pancras..

Rent a goon may well have made a very stupid (and, if they face legal action, expensive) mistake. Unsurprising given the IQ of most of those clowns...

 

[Bletchleyite]

In England! By your logic French law should apply on a Eurostar train in the platform at St Pancras..

If the train wasn't going to stop before entering France it would be necessary to ensure compliance with French law before departure.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If the trains are 1 an hour and known to be crush-loaded, then surely the sensible thing is for TfW to provide additional services.

Or are they not running their trains for the benefit of fare-paying passengers?

Who is paying for these rent-a-thugs?

 

[Wolfie]

If something happens on board they might require access to the saloon. One of the nastiest situations I've had to deal with was on a crush loaded train where some utter **** of a squaddie pulled the cord and brought us to a grinding halt in the middle of nowhere, in the dark, on a train that was over an hour late. I am not a small person and it took me several minutes to force my way through the train to reset it while people were panicking because after the emergency stop they could feel the crush as people tried to make room for me.

I wouldn't allow a train to operate in those conditions at the moment because I wouldn't be willing to force myself down the train if need be regardless of whether the passengers are willing to do so or not - why should we - I am a human being with rights as well? Consequently there needs to be room to move.

As for the legality of preventing access to the train, there may be an argument regarding failing to undertake the contracted service with due care etc etc.

Personally when it comes to making decisions about the safe operating of the train I would bear no consideration to that whatsoever, that is what the company employs legal teams for. If in the guard's judgement in the specific circumstances of the moment the train is full the byelaws entitle them to instruct passengers to leave it and if they refuse to have an appropriate person (I would rather it was a constable as most private security are rubbish) use reasonable force to deal with the matter.

Yesterday I refused upwards of 30 persons access to my train because I couldn't safely store their luggage/pushchairs etc and also ordered a person with a bike (having repeatedly politely asked first) off as well after they decided it was appropriate to wedge it and their bags across my cab door.

I have no doubt that they have legal rights too as a result of purchasing their tickets so I directed them to the customer relations department for redress.

Thank you for a thoughtful, well balanced response from someone at the sharp end.
My big concern with what is apparently reported by the OP is that rent a goon were physically manhandling people some of who it appears had been on the train for one or more previous stations without a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2020 ==

If the train wasn't going to stop before entering France it would be necessary to ensure compliance with French law before departure.

Possibly so, but if the police had to be involved and/or charges pressed it certainly wouldn't be under French law. Nor would committing a possibly illegal act under English and Welsh law be legally justifiable on that basis.

 

[LowLevel]

That, to be fair, isn't on. I would never ask our security to lay hands on anyone because rarely do they seem to be appropriately trained or equipped to do so. Most of the few occasions in my career that I have had to lay hands on people to prevent harm or keep the peace have been as a direct result of a security officer failing to manage a situation appropriately.

 

[PHILIPE]

If the trains are 1 an hour and known to be crush-loaded, then surely the sensible thing is for TfW to provide additional services.

Or are they not running their trains for the benefit of fare-paying passengers?

Who is paying for these rent-a-thugs?

Where are they going to get the additional units and crews from ?

 

[yorkie]

I'll lock this thread for the time being, and will reopen it when TfW respond.