UK face coverings discussion

[bramling]

Nope. In two months of not wearing one, and using TfL stations and services most days, I’ve only been asked a couple of times.

I have only been asked once on TFL services some while ago, and in all honesty I'm not sure who that was. I simply responded with "I am exempt and the reason for that is none of your business" and walked off.

Allegedly there have been cases of LU trains being swept by BTP whilst at a station, however I've certainly not seen this first-hand. I suspect this may have been early on and in the early morning period, which seems to be more politically sensitive as that's where we saw the "Sadiq Khan needs to get a grip of these packed Tube trains" headlines.

One way or other, mask wearing on LU has declined quite conspicuously since the hot weather, and doesn't seem to have recovered. Certainly looking like 50% or even less, especially later in the day. Many seem to wear their mask when they pass through the station and then off it comes once on the train. Pleasing to see.

 

[yorkie]

I think schools will face a multitude of challenges when pupils return. To add the burden of enforcing the wearing of facemasks is not helpful.

I completely agree; if anyone wants to promote the wearing of masks in schools, I'll be happy to have an argument with them (and I'd be up for the full argument, not a 5 minute argument!)

Edit: and here is another concern; it turns out that there can be side effects from wearing face masks, which dentists are concerned about:
https://nypost.com/2020/08/05/mask-mouth-is-a-seriously-stinky-side-effect-of-wearing-masks/

“...We’re seeing inflammation in people’s gums that have been healthy forever, and cavities in people who have never had them before,” says Dr. Rob Ramondi, a dentist and co-founder of One Manhattan Dental. “About 50% of our patients are being impacted by this, [so] we decided to name it ‘mask mouth’ — after ‘meth mouth.’ ”

“Gum disease — or periodontal disease — will eventually lead to strokes and an increased risk of heart attacks,” says Dr. Marc Sclafani, another co-founder of One Manhattan Dental.

“People tend to breathe through their mouth instead of through their nose while wearing a mask,” says Sclafani. “The mouth breathing is causing the dry mouth, which leads to a decrease in saliva — and saliva is what fights the bacteria and cleanses your teeth.”

...People’s tendency to drink less water while masked up .... have also added to the widespread dehydration he’s seeing....

I suspect the pro-mask brigade will be keen to cover this up (excuse the pun)

Indeed, its easier to enforce stuff in a school compared to anywhere else, as if it becomes a school rule, teachers can dish out sanctions like they would anything else

I would not be happy if I was asked to "enforce" the wearing of masks in a school. How can you know who is/isn't exempt? I think staff who work in schools have enough other things to deal with. With all due respect, I doubt you've worked in a school, as I don't think you'd be wording your post in this way if you had.

 

[Huntergreed]

I completely agree; if anyone wants to promote the wearing of masks in schools, I'll be happy to have an argument with them (and I'd be up for the full argument, not a 5 minute argument!)

How I wish we could arrange that with Ms. Sturgeon and her advisory team!

 

[greyman42]

That's handy to know for when I head to London next week! Am I right in saying TfL is far, far stricter than everyone else and you could be chucked out or fined £1,000 for a first time offense?

There are many on the Underground who do not wear masks and i have never seen one questioned yet.

 

[Huntergreed]

I must admit I’ve found that I get short of breath much more easily when I’ve worn one for a long period of time, and I’ve needed to use my inhalers a lot more (especially when I’ve been using trains a lot, like this weekend) as they flare up my asthma.

I’ve also encountered sore gums, and I’ve found I have a toothache that started just after a weekend of wearing them, possibly it’s the masks to blame?

 

[yorkie]

I must admit I’ve found that I get short of breath much more easily when I’ve worn one for a long period of time, and I’ve needed to use my inhalers a lot more (especially when I’ve been using trains a lot, like this weekend) as they flare up my asthma.

I’ve also encountered sore gums, and I’ve found I have a toothache that started just after a weekend of wearing them, possibly it’s the masks to blame?

If I were in your position I'd not be wearing a mask, and instead either wear an exemption lanyard or bring an exemption card to show, as appropriate.

 

[Huntergreed]

If I were in your position I'd not be wearing a mask, and instead either wear an exemption lanyard or bring an exemption card to show, as appropriate.

Problem is, as a reasonably healthy 18-year old male, I feel like I would still be challenged, asked to leave, or possibly fined by the police for doing so.

What’s my legal stance on this? I can wear one, but I find them very uncomfortable and they do affect my breathing to a level where it’s not medically worrying, but certainly more challenging.

 

[NSEFAN]

Edit: and here is another concern; it turns out that there can be side effects from wearing face masks, which dentists are concerned about

Interesting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed the design of mask? I find a big difference between my re-useable cloth mask and a harsher medical/builder's mask.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem is, as a reasonably healthy 18-year old male, I feel like I would still be challenged, asked to leave, or possibly fined by the police for doing so.

What’s my legal stance on this? I can wear one, but I find them very uncomfortable and they do affect my breathing to a level where it’s not medically worrying, but certainly more challenging.

Very clearly exempt in my view.

 

[Andyh82]

I would not be happy if I was asked to "enforce" the wearing of masks in a school. How can you know who is/isn't exempt? I think staff who work in schools have enough other things to deal with. With all due respect, I doubt you've worked in a school, as I don't think you'd be wording your post in this way if you had.

They'd know in the same way as they know about pupils being exempt from other stuff

You're talking as if the kids are strangers to the teachers, like a shop assistant or bus driver would be

Not that I'm in favour of this I should add

 

[scotrail158713]

What’s my legal stance on this? I can wear one, but I find them very uncomfortable and they do affect my breathing to a level where it’s not medically worrying, but certainly more challenging.

I’d say you’re exempt. Based on what you’ve posted it is causing medical issues.

I’ve found I have a toothache that started just after a weekend of wearing them

This is the bit that settles it for me. Toothache is a problem just now, as, despite what the government say, routine dentistry can’t really be done just now. So it’s harder to get this sorted.

How I wish we could arrange that with Ms. Sturgeon and her advisory team!

Definitely

 

[MikeWM]

What’s my legal stance on this? I can wear one, but I find them very uncomfortable and they do affect my breathing to a level where it’s not medically worrying, but certainly more challenging.

My situation is similar (maybe with a slightly more severe effect on my breathing than you have, but so far not to the extent that I felt it was actually dangerous, just increasingly uncomfortable (and eventually accompanied by coughing/wheezing that would probably be more alarming to people around me than not wearing a mask in the first place!)).

As such, I've progressed from trying to wear something loose in a vague 'only if I think people may be looking' manner, which I was doing in June/July on trains, to not doing it at all.

The legislation is sufficiently vague that it would appear you are covered by the exemptions, but equally it is sufficiently vague that others may decide you are not! Given the Government themselves say ' No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering' then you only really have your own opinion to go on.

So far, I've only been 'challenged' once, as mentioned earlier today, and it was a simple and polite enough conversation. I suppose it may be to my advantage that I don't exactly look to be in the peak of physical health - so maybe people would be a bit more challenging to a young healthy-looking person.

I think you'll have to decide what you think is the least worst option, and then stick to it.

 

[talldave]

On the topic of mask related health issues - I'm saddened to say "I told you so".

On the subject of school uniform - the school uniform shop had a no masks sign up when we visited today. Here's hoping the school follows suit. Starting school is frightening enough for a 4 yr old without not being able to see peoples' faces.

 

[43066]

I have only been asked once on TFL services some while ago, and in all honesty I'm not sure who that was. I simply responded with "I am exempt and the reason for that is none of your business" and walked off.

Similar for me. I was asked once a few weeks ago by uniformed BTP (at a NR station not TfL) and they were perfectly professional when I explained I was exempt, and accepted this without further question. I’ve been asked a few times by the pink vis brigade and a couple of times by gate-line staff (the best way to avoid this is to avoid making eye contact.

I must say I question why anyone would even bother asking now. It’s not as if this is a brand new measure which people might be unaware of. Anyone not wearing a face covering is clearly either exempt or has chosen not to wear it for some other reason. Either way, asking them is clearly going to be a futile exercise!

One way or other, mask wearing on LU has declined quite conspicuously since the hot weather, and doesn't seem to have recovered. Certainly looking like 50% or even less, especially later in the day. Many seem to wear their mask when they pass through the station and then off it comes once on the train. Pleasing to see.

Yep I’ve certainly noticed that too. More and more people are merely paying lip service, or simply no longer even bothering to do that, no doubt having realised nothing is actually going to happen.

It’s good to see passenger numbers continuing to rise. I was on a few tube trains over the weekend that were approaching pre-Covid type loadings.

 

[Ianno87]

On the topic of mask related health issues - I'm saddened to say "I told you so".

On the subject of school uniform - the school uniform shop had a no masks sign up when we visited today. Here's hoping the school follows suit. Starting school is frightening enough for a 4 yr old without not being able to see peoples' faces.

My 4 year old (starting school next month) loves my face coverings (one Real Time Trains, one with HSTs).

He even reminds me to put it on

He's never batted an eyelid at adults wearing them.



Even so, I'm not a fan of wearing in schools.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the school uniform shop had a no masks sign up when we visited today

So, the only people who can legally shop there are those who are exempt, and they're inciting others to break the law. Yeah, great idea. I'd dob that in if I was local.

If shops don't want to enforce wearing that's up to them, but a "no masks" sign is absolutely unacceptable in this situation.

 

[Ianno87]

So, the only people who can legally shop there are those who are exempt, and they're inciting others to break the law. Yeah, great idea. I'd dob that in if I was local.

If shops don't want to enforce wearing that's up to them, but a "no masks" sign is absolutely unacceptable in this situation.

The shop will probably sit and wonder why it's losing business to online uniform suppliers...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The shop will probably sit and wonder why it's losing business to online uniform suppliers...

That too. While the majority in here seem against masks, a very large proportion of the public support them - and that is skewed in my impression towards women in their 20s and 30s - i.e. the people who are most likely to be purchasing school uniform. This, if nothing else, is a very silly business decision indeed.

 

[43066]

So, the only people who can legally shop there are those who are exempt, and they're inciting others to break the law. Yeah, great idea. I'd dob that in if I was local.

If shops don't want to enforce wearing that's up to them, but a "no masks" sign is absolutely unacceptable in this situation.

Unacceptable according to you, perhaps, but you seem perfectly happy for businesses to go the other way and impose more onerous mask requirements than mandated by legislation.

So why shouldn’t a business owner take a different approach, and state they don’t wish to serve customers wearing masks? What business is that of anyone else’s? Stating “no masks” isn’t necessarily inciting anyone to break the law.

And why the obsession with snitching?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unacceptable according to you, perhaps, but you seem perfectly happy for businesses to go the other way and impose more onerous mask requirements than mandated by legislation.

Yes, because that's how the law works. You can impose rules stricter than it (except where the law specifically prohibits it, e.g. discrimination related legislation), but you cannot impose rules less strict than it.

So why shouldn’t a business owner take a different approach, and state they don’t wish to serve customers wearing masks? What business is that of anyone else’s? Stating “no masks” isn’t necessarily inciting anyone to break the law.

Well, it's either that, or it's stating that the business is open only to those who are exempt. I'll leave you to have a guess which it is, given that limiting your business to a small proportion of the population is the act of someone who isn't going to stay in business very long.

And why the obsession with snitching?

Because I just want people to think beyond themselves and, you know, just comply with the law?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

... a very large proportion of the public support them ...

If "a very large proportion" of the public support face coverings then there would be no need for it to be mandated.

As has been explained before, the people "supporting" them are those who were wearing them pre-mandate and the people "complying" are those wearing them now. I suppose those who feel it's "much safer" with face coverings could be counted as supporting them too.

 

[Huntergreed]

If "a very large proportion" of the public support face coverings then there would be no need for it to be mandated.

As has been explained before, the people "supporting" them are those who were wearing them pre-mandate and the people "complying" are those wearing them now. I suppose those who feel it's "much safer" with face coverings could be counted as supporting them too.

I get the impression that those who were too scared before don’t feel any safer with face masks. They just remind you of the danger!

 

[43066]

Yes, because that's how the law works. You can impose rules stricter than it (except where the law specifically prohibits it, e.g. discrimination related legislation), but you cannot impose rules less strict than it.

But that isn’t what they’re doing. They’re simply saying “masks cannot be worn in this shop”. That’s less likely to be “illegal” than someone denying access to those who are exempt (who may be covered by disability legislation - almost certainly nobody is wearing a mask because of a disability)

Well, it's either that, or it's stating that the business is open only to those who are exempt. I'll leave you to have a guess which it is, given that limiting your business to a small proportion of the population is the act of someone who isn't going to stay in business very long.

Businesses taking this approach will always be in the minority, so they might actually do better by attracting more custom from those who are exempt!

Because I just want people to think beyond themselves and, you know, just comply with the law?

People could comply with the law by entering the above mentioned premises in beekeeper’s hat, crash helmet etc. Or they could comply with the law by entering with no covering, and stating they’re exempt.

Yes, obviously it’s ludicrous, and it’s clearly a protest, but that’s because this is an extremely bad law. I’d also suggest that the reason people are taking this approach isn’t just because they’re thinking of themselves, it’s because they fundamentally disagree with masks being mandated on the basis of such shaky evidence, the damage this is doing to our society, the impact on the vulnerable etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People could comply with the law by entering the above mentioned premises in beekeeper’s hat, crash helmet etc. Or they could comply with the law by entering with no covering, and stating they’re exempt.

No, that wouldn't comply with the law. It would be unenforceable if they were lying, but that doesn't mean someone who is falsely claiming an exemption isn't breaking the law.

 

[43066]

No, that wouldn't comply with the law. It would be unenforceable if they were lying, but that doesn't mean someone who is falsely claiming an exemption isn't breaking the law.

But whether or not someone is exempt is essentially purely subjective. So any business operating a “no masks” policy could simply assume all its customers believed they were exempt (in much the way Sainsbury’s presumably does for the proportion of customers who enter not wearing coverings).

I don’t see why you’re convinced saying “no masks” is an incitement to break the law. On the other hand I can see exactly why they’re doing it: a ludicrous law like this deserves a ludicrous response.

 

[Journeyman]

Because I just want people to think beyond themselves and, you know, just comply with the law?

I decided right at the start of this that I wasn't going to snitch up anyone for anything coronavirus/lockdown related.

It's a decision I've found remarkably easy to live with - certainly far easier than looking for trouble.

 

[bramling]

Similar for me. I was asked once a few weeks ago by uniformed BTP (at a NR station not TfL) and they were perfectly professional when I explained I was exempt, and accepted this without further question. I’ve been asked a few times by the pink vis brigade and a couple of times by gate-line staff (the best way to avoid this is to avoid making eye contact.

I must say I question why anyone would even bother asking now. It’s not as if this is a brand new measure which people might be unaware of. Anyone not wearing a face covering is clearly either exempt or has chosen not to wear it for some other reason. Either way, asking them is clearly going to be a futile exercise!



Yep I’ve certainly noticed that too. More and more people are merely paying lip service, or simply no longer even bothering to do that, no doubt having realised nothing is actually going to happen.

It’s good to see passenger numbers continuing to rise. I was on a few tube trains over the weekend that were approaching pre-Covid type loadings.

My place had a mask-related handle down / altercation / delay this afternoon, so unfortunately it's still happening. Should I be involved in such an incident then it's highly likely the maskophile will be instructed to vacate the premises, as it's certainly no emergency, and they shouldn't be stirring up trouble with other punters, nor needlessly causing delay (which as we know can endanger others by causing other trains to become stuck away from stations).

The Underground does seem to have tipped a balance where there's enough of a critical mass of non-mask-wearers that it's becoming less of an issue, not that it really was too much in the first place. Having said that I got a quite conspicuous eyeballing from the lilac contingent at Euston earlier, I was waiting for something to be said but it wasn't! I just gave an evil stare back.

 

[Richard Scott]

They'd know in the same way as they know about pupils being exempt from other stuff

You're talking as if the kids are strangers to the teachers, like a shop assistant or bus driver would be

Not that I'm in favour of this I should add

Not necessarily, you don't know all their medical issues and in a secondary school you won't know all the pupils.

 

[Huntergreed]

They'd know in the same way as they know about pupils being exempt from other stuff

You're talking as if the kids are strangers to the teachers, like a shop assistant or bus driver would be

Not that I'm in favour of this I should add

As a teacher you get to know your pupils and their recorded medical history.

You do NOT get to know whether they feel distress if their face has been covered due to past experiences/shortness of breath etc, that's a very personal thing and it's for the wearer and the wearer alone to decide.

I can't imagine that anyone will ever be fined because they've not worn a mask, but rather they'll be fined for their attitude towards not wearing one.

 

[43066]

My place had a mask-related handle down / altercation / delay this afternoon, so unfortunately it's still happening. Should I be involved in such an incident then it's highly likely the maskophile will be instructed to vacate the premises, as it's certainly no emergency, and they shouldn't be stirring up trouble with other punters, nor needlessly causing delay (which as we know can endanger others by causing other trains to become stuck away from stations).

I’m amazed that’s still going on (although nothing surprises me in London). Anyone challenging somebody for not wearing a mask on the trains I was on today would have been facing (quite literally ) half a dozen or more non maskivists in the same carriage.

The Underground does seem to have tipped a balance where there's enough of a critical mass of non-mask-wearers that it's becoming less of an issue, not that it really was too much in the first place. Having said that I got a quite conspicuous eyeballing from the lilac contingent at Euston earlier, I was waiting for something to be said but it wasn't! I just gave an evil stare back.

If the railway wants to save money, there’s some low hanging fruit. What do these people actually do, other than standing around, staring into their phones, occasionally pestering people (including me when I’m at work) ?! And there’s an army of them.

I can't imagine that anyone will ever be fined because they've not worn a mask, but rather they'll be fined for their attitude towards not wearing one.

That’s exactly it.