Treasury ‘losing patience with rail’

[mmh]

Tell me how you are just going to magic some money out of thin air so that the government can pay for things without raising taxes?
The options are (a) raise taxes or (b) cut spending. There is no way around it.

There's a rather obvious option (c) missing here.

 

[py_megapixel]

There's a rather obvious option (c) missing here.

What, do nothing? That would be a fantastic option in hindsight I'm sure, but most of this stuff has already been paid for.

 

[mmh]

What, do nothing? That would be a fantastic option in hindsight I'm sure, but most of this stuff has already been paid for.

No, it's not do nothing.

 

[py_megapixel]

No, it's not do nothing.

Sorry if I'm sounding utterly thick (I probably am), but I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[mmh]

Sorry if I'm sounding utterly thick (I probably am), but I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The alternative to raising taxes or cutting taxes doesn't mean a government doing nothing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a rather obvious option (c) missing here.

Borrowing?

 

[Ianno87]

The alternative to raising taxes or cutting taxes doesn't mean a government doing nothing.

Nope, still not with you either. You're going to have to spell it out for me at least.

 

[mmh]

Borrowing?

That's secret option (d)!

 

[py_megapixel]

The alternative to raising taxes or cutting taxes doesn't mean a government doing nothing.

I wasn't suggesting cutting taxes, I was suggesting cutting government spending.

Borrowing?

That's another thing I was going to suggest, although I was counting that as doing nothing as they must already have borrowed some to pay for this?

 

[Bikeman78]

I would have loved to be a fly on the way for that call.

"Control, the train is quite full and social distancing isn't being maintained. What should we do?"
"Is the train full?"
"No"
"When is the next train?"
"2 hours Control"
"Well do you want to tell some passengers that they have to wait that long?"
"On our way Control"

I don't really understand why train crew get involved in this. So long as they can work the train without being surrounded by passengers. I've seen a few full DOO trains around London and the drivers clearly couldn't care less how full they are. They just shut the doors as normal and the train departs.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't really understand why train crew get involved in this. So long as they can work the train without being surrounded by passengers. I've seen a few full DOO trains around London and the drivers clearly couldn't care less how full they are. They just shut the doors as normal and the train departs.

I think passengers are going to have to accept that social distancing is not going to be possible all the time, and have to accept that *they* have to alight if they are not comfortable.

Trouble is, the age of social media passes the "blame" onto the TOC very easily with a Tweeted photo ("there's no social distancing on this train, it's unsafe!")

 

[Meerkat]

IMO With a mask on you are going to be pretty unlucky to catch Covid off anyone asymptomatic, even squashed up in a train. I know theoretically you could get aerosol in your eyes or round your mask but if Covid was that transmissible we would probably all have had it by now!

 

[Bikeman78]

I think passengers are going to have to accept that social distancing is not going to be possible all the time, and have to accept that *they* have to alight if they are not comfortable.

Trouble is, the age of social media passes the "blame" onto the TOC very easily with a Tweeted photo ("there's no social distancing on this train, it's unsafe!")

Agreed. From what I've seen, passengers are just getting on with it. I had someone sitting right next to me on a short formed AGA train recently. I wasn't bothered. Evidently they weren't either or they wouldn't have sat down there.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Given the issues with climate change, I reckon closing railway lines for good would be politically toxic for the government. Extinction Rebellion and the School Strike for Climate groups would have a have field day if the government seriously considered closing railway lines.

No doubt they will find something to have demos about. Hardly a serious problem.
Can no one see that reducing travel is a sensible way forward and no doubt that will cause pain but why have people wasting time and money when there is no real need ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2020 ==

We should because people are more productive than when they WFH. I know of several companies who are recalling staff to the office from next month anyway.

Plus all the businesses they support like cleaning firms, coffee shops etc.

And I know several who are reducing office space. If money is spent differently that will mean opportunities arise in some place but a decline in others.

 

[yorksrob]

No doubt they will find something to have demos about. Hardly a serious problem.
Can no one see that reducing travel is a sensible way forward and no doubt that will cause pain but why have people wasting time and money when there is no real need ?

I don't think closing passenger railways will reduce travel, rather push it onto the roads.

 

[chorleyjeff]

That is currently a key main line, but if Scotland becomes independent, it would certainly become vulnerable to closure, particularly if Scotland also rejoined the EU, because lengthy stringent border checks would be demanded by the EU gauleiters.

That is very long term planning !
Scotland can't rejoin the EU. It could make an application to join and good luck to them on that.
How long are the border checks on trains that move in and out of the EU ?

 

[birchesgreen]

Can no one see that reducing travel is a sensible way forward and no doubt that will cause pain but why have people wasting time and money when there is no real need ?

Well maybe it's their time and money to waste how they see fit.

 

[cactustwirly]

Tell me how you are just going to magic some money out of thin air so that the government can pay for things without raising taxes?
The options are (a) raise taxes or (b) cut spending. There is no way around it.

Get more passengers on seats???

 

[DelW]

That is very long term planning !
Scotland can't rejoin the EU. It could make an application to join and good luck to them on that.
How long are the border checks on trains that move in and out of the EU ?

The final decisions have yet to be made, but the public position of Iarnrod Eirann and Translink is that trains between Dublin and Belfast will not be delayed by border checks, so there's no reason why Anglo Scottish ones would be.

“No change” to Belfast - Dublin services after Brexit, says IE

PASSENGERS will not see any changes in the operation of Belfast - Dublin ‘Enterprise’ services, even in the event of a no-deal Brexit, Irish Rail (IE) says.

www.railjournal.com

PASSENGERS will not see any changes in the day-to-day operation of Belfast – Dublin ‘Enterprise’ services, even in the event of a no-deal Brexit, Mr Billy Gilpin, director of train operations for Irish Rail (IE) told a meeting of the Seanad committee on Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union in Dublin on September 25.

 

[37424]

The final decisions have yet to be made, but the public position of Iarnrod Eirann and Translink is that trains between Dublin and Belfast will not be delayed by border checks, so there's no reason why Anglo Scottish ones would be.

“No change” to Belfast - Dublin services after Brexit, says IE

PASSENGERS will not see any changes in the operation of Belfast - Dublin ‘Enterprise’ services, even in the event of a no-deal Brexit, Irish Rail (IE) says.

www.railjournal.com

Northern Ireland/Ireland is a very special case for obvious reasons which would not apply with England/Scotland but we somewhat getting off the point.

 

[bramling]

I think passengers are going to have to accept that social distancing is not going to be possible all the time, and have to accept that *they* have to alight if they are not comfortable.

Trouble is, the age of social media passes the "blame" onto the TOC very easily with a Tweeted photo ("there's no social distancing on this train, it's unsafe!")

The only thing I would say is people should still attempt to distance *where possible*. I've certainly been none too impressed when on a very empty train and someone chooses to sit within spitting distance - that's just plain unnecessary in the circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only thing I would say is people should still attempt to distance *where possible*. I've certainly been none too impressed when on a very empty train and someone chooses to sit within spitting distance - that's just plain unnecessary in the circumstances.

I'm unimpressed with that in normal circumstances. "When the nutter gets on the bus..."

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm unimpressed with that in normal circumstances. "When the nutter gets on the bus..."

I guess some people have their "favourite seat" which they will take no matter what...

Sometimes if there are young children on the bus who want the front top seats I will let them sit there, as I know when I was their age I got a huge amount of pleasure from being able to see out the front!

 

[daodao]

That is very long term planning ! Scotland can't rejoin the EU. It could make an application to join and good luck to them on that. How long are the border checks on trains that move in and out of the EU ?

An independent Scotland could rejoin the EU, probably relatively quickly if there was a successful IndyRef2 soon, but not immediately. Many of the external borders of the EU/Schengen zone are with countries that were formerly part of the USSR, whose rail track gauge is different, so that border delays, e.g. at Brest, are likely to be due to change of bogies as much as border guards. On the one occasion that I transited through Brest, it took several hours and one had to detrain.

 

[bramling]

I'm unimpressed with that in normal circumstances. "When the nutter gets on the bus..."

Same here. I’m not really a people person at the best of times!

 

[geoffk]

How long are the border checks on trains that move in and out of the EU ?

Depends on the customs regime on the non-EU side, I suppose. I did Oslo to Gothenburg a few years ago, Norway not being in the EU and we didn't notice any border at all. Probably different if you're taking a lorry across. Likewise Germany - Switzerland - Italy. If Boris Johnson goes down the WTO route and Scotland joins the EU, it will be more like Finland to Russia, probably.

 

[PR1Berske]

An independent Scotland could rejoin the EU, probably relatively quickly if there was a successful IndyRef2 soon, but not immediately. Many of the external borders of the EU/Schengen zone are with countries that were formerly part of the USSR, whose rail track gauge is different, so that border delays, e.g. at Brest, are likely to be due to change of bogies as much as border guards. On the one occasion that I transited through Brest, it took several hours and one had to detrain.

I'll try very hard to stay on-topic with this response. What I will say about Scotland and the EU is, their membership application would be rejected by Spain over the consequences for Catalonia, the Basque region, and Gibraltar......and just as the Treasury is allegedly losing patience over the railways, I am certain that Spain is losing patience with potential independence claims continuing to plague its domestic political agenda.

*wipes brow*

 

[43066]

I'm unimpressed with that in normal circumstances. "When the nutter gets on the bus..."

... he always gets a seat.

A bit like being a train driver (with the added benefit of the train also generally waiting for you) .

Same here. I’m not really a people person at the best of times!

Most people I know have reverted to “not invading personal space” social distancing - which is the same thing we have practiced since we’ve all been alive.

 

[geoffk]

Because this country's debt will be at an all time high and services need paying for. I mean, we could go back to 60% top rate of income tax as there was under Thatcher.

Tacking aggressive tax avoidance would be an alternative. However it seems remarkably difficult to get an estimate of how much money could be raised.

 

[brad465]

Tacking aggressive tax avoidance would be an alternative. However it seems remarkably difficult to get an estimate of how much money could be raised.

I totally agree this is an issue that if addressed will greatly benefit public finances, both for the railways, other transport investments and other public spending. HMRC have typically reported a tax gap of around £35bn every year, of which avoidance is a portion, although some other sources elsewhere do not believe use of tax havens is included in this value. Either way, there is an awful lot more that can be done to raise finances if HMRC were given extra resources to do so.

I recall John McDonnell once proposed electrification all the way to Cornwall, with tax avoidance crackdown something he suggested as a means to fund it. Can't remember which RAIL edition it was in.