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Could the short HSTs be converted to hydrogen or battery operation?

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Bletchleyite

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With a lot of money being spent on more short formation HSTs and diesel supposedly on the way out, it struck me that with two large power cars to work with these might lend themselves well to being converted to hydrogen or battery (or a combination of those) far more readily than underfloor powered MUs.

What do people think? Is such a thing actually being considered by any TOC or ROSCO?
 
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JonathanH

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Well there was consideration of a Hybrid HST with batteries at one point but the batteries had to go in an adjacent coach.


Hybrid High Speed Train unveiled
By Andrew Grantham 4 May 2007

UK: On May 3 Hitachi Europe unveiled 'Hayabusa', which it says is Europe's first battery-assisted diesel-electric power car.

The hybrid drive has been installed in a British HST power car to allow realistic trials of the prototype technology, which Hitachi and its development partners Brush Traction, Network Rail and Porterbrook Leasing anticipate could reduce fuel consumption by 20%.

The hybrid train accelerates from a stand on battery power alone, with the energy management system blending in power from its Paxman Valenta diesel engine as the speed reaches 30 km/h. During braking the traction motors act as generators, with the energy charging the battery rather than being dissipated as heat. Allowing for energy losses in charging and discharging, Hitachi expects that around 80% of the regenerated braking energy will be recovered for the next powering cycle.

Power car No 43 089, now named after the Japanese word for falcon, and a MkIII TGS coach were donated to the project by Porterbrook. Modification of the vehicles was undertaken by Brush Traction in Loughborough. Limitations on weight distribution prevented the bank of 48 lithium ion battery modules rated at 1 kWh each from being fitted in the power car, so the battery is located in custom-designed racks in the adjacent coach.

Hitachi is expecting a 20% cut in fuel consumption, but higher savings could be made with a new-build vehicles. These would have the batteries incorporated in the design from the start, with the 20 kg battery modules distributed throughout the train. Using battery power for acceleration means that a new-build vehicle could have a smaller diesel engine and cooler group, resulting in an overall reduction in vehicle weight despite the battery. Further reductions are expected as battery technology advances, driven by demand from the automotive industry. 'The weight saving is marginal today, but might be significant in a couple of years' said a Hitachi engineer at the launch. Battery life is put at eight to 10 years, but this is also expected to improve as technology matures.

The HST is the first use of Hitachi's hybrid system in Europe, but a prototype New Energy Train has been on test in Japan since 2003. JR-East is to begin revenue service with three hybrid DMUs in July, and their arduous commuter duty cycle with frequent station stops is expect to demonstrate higher fuel savings than the HST.

Testing of the HST has now begun at up to 96 km/h on the Great Central Railway, a heritage line, in advance of six months of testing as part of Network Rail's New Measurement Train. It is paired with a conventional HST power car to allow direct comparisons of performance and energy efficiency, and use in the NMT will require it to operate at up to 200 km/h between passenger trains. Network Rail Chief Engineer Andrew McNaughton said the NMT duty cycle is similar to that of a train in regular inter-city passenger service, which will enable Hitachi to gather realistic performance data.

The project is focused on research for the future, with train operators following with interest but no orders currently planned. 'This hybrid HST power car is a fantastic demonstration of the advances in hybrid battery/diesel technology', Hitachi Europe General Manager Alistair Dormer told guests at the launch. 'Hitachi is very proud to unveil this technology which will demonstrate energy and emissions savings today, but more importantly unlocks the future potential for the application of rapidly-improving battery hybrid-powered traction technology to future generations of rail vehicles in the UK.'

Discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...7-hybrid-hst-future-uses.146718/#post-2989072 and here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-electro-diesel-is-it-possible.64538/#post-1071825

I think the answer may be no, not without some serious investment in an asset with a relatively short future.
 
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Energy

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No, they are still old trains. The Hitachi Hybrid HST seems more a demonstrator which would make sense.
 

Meerkat

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No, they are still old trains. The Hitachi Hybrid HST seems more a demonstrator which would make sense.
Why does batteries make more sense?

How much space does the ‘engine’ bits of a hydrogen train take up? If it’s significantly less than a Diesel engine then the freed up space plus the guards area gives quite a bit of room for hydrogen tanks, and you have two power cars so that’s a fair bit of space that is already non-passenger.
Bristol is a pretty green place - would they fancy sharing a hydrogen plant for their buses?
 

Energy

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Why does batteries make more sense?

How much space does the ‘engine’ bits of a hydrogen train take up? If it’s significantly less than a Diesel engine then the freed up space plus the guards area gives quite a bit of room for hydrogen tanks, and you have two power cars so that’s a fair bit of space that is already non-passenger.
Bristol is a pretty green place - would they fancy sharing a hydrogen plant for their buses?
I meant it makes more sense that the Hitachi HST is a demonstrator unit and not available from Hitachi. It seems to be more to show of a potential option for Hitachi's ATx00 line of trains
 

DB

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That was just a demonstrator of the technology using what happened to be available and could be used for this purposes (there were HSTs off-lease at the time) - and it was 13 years ago! Highly unlikely that they would do this with HSTs now.
 

Meerkat

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So could it all fit in two power cars? A few of those about that wouldn’t be missed if they were stripped out and experimented on.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Are we remembering that hydrogen units aren't really hydrogen units, they're hydrogen-battery units.

The fuel cell doesn't drive the traction motors, it feeds into a traction battery which in turn powers the traction motors. The fuel cell is charging the battery regardless of whether the train is accelerating or braking. It runs constantly (it's apparently better for the fuel cells just to run and run).

The battery pack size needed for an HST will be enormous and that means really really heavy, to charge that, an enormous fuel cell stack will be needed, and to power that, an enormous number of high pressure cylinders will be needed.

I'd be unsurprised if the fuel cells and hydrogen cylinders take up each power car and another carriage is needed to house the batteries, meaning a diesel 2+4 HST becomes a hydrogen battery 2+6 HST. The Alstom Breeze concept is giving up just under a vehicle in a three car unit to the fuel cells, cylinders and battery packs, and they're already starting with an EMU which was blessed by a lack of underfloor equipment, it'll be much harder on an HST which can't be completely gutted remember - you need the traction control equipment, blowers etc, and which will need some way of taking either fuel cell or battery voltage and transforming it into 415V AC for the ETS.
 

Meerkat

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Are we remembering that hydrogen units aren't really hydrogen units, they're hydrogen-battery units.

The fuel cell doesn't drive the traction motors, it feeds into a traction battery which in turn powers the traction motors. The fuel cell is charging the battery regardless of whether the train is accelerating or braking. It runs constantly (it's apparently better for the fuel cells just to run and run).

The battery pack size needed for an HST will be enormous and that means really really heavy, to charge that, an enormous fuel cell stack will be needed, and to power that, an enormous number of high pressure cylinders will be needed.

I'd be unsurprised if the fuel cells and hydrogen cylinders take up each power car and another carriage is needed to house the batteries, meaning a diesel 2+4 HST becomes a hydrogen battery 2+6 HST. The Alstom Breeze concept is giving up just under a vehicle in a three car unit to the fuel cells, cylinders and battery packs, and they're already starting with an EMU which was blessed by a lack of underfloor equipment, it'll be much harder on an HST which can't be completely gutted remember - you need the traction control equipment, blowers etc, and which will need some way of taking either fuel cell or battery voltage and transforming it into 415V AC for the ETS.
Interesting stuff. Though you do have two whole power cars, and they only need to move 4 or 5 carriages at 100mph, not 8 at 125mph.
It’s probably my inability to remember my A level physics but why would you need a huge battery pack - AIUI it’s just a buffer, it doesn’t need the storage for pulling the train any distance??
 

Philip Phlopp

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Interesting stuff. Though you do have two whole power cars, and they only need to move 4 or 5 carriages at 100mph, not 8 at 125mph.
It’s probably my inability to remember my A level physics but why would you need a huge battery pack - AIUI it’s just a buffer, it doesn’t need the storage for pulling the train any distance??

It mainly depends on the fuel cell output versus peak demand, but much will revolve around what you're going to do with regenerative braking (or not, in which case a smaller battery is fine).
 

Meerkat

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It mainly depends on the fuel cell output versus peak demand, but much will revolve around what you're going to do with regenerative braking (or not, in which case a smaller battery is fine).
Good point - need a fair amount of spare ‘space‘ for the regeneration slowing into a stop then all the fuel cell power generated during the stop. But still presumably a lot less than needed to power the train for tens of miles??
Though do you actually have to have the fuel cell at full power the whole time? I assumed it was a 100%/0% situation where you could still turn it off and on for stations etc.
If you can’t stop/start it would you need some kind of auxiliary power, so that you don’t have a full size fuel cell going full whack from the moment you switch the train on?
 

43096

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With a lot of money being spent on more short formation HSTs and diesel supposedly on the way out, it struck me that with two large power cars to work with these might lend themselves well to being converted to hydrogen or battery (or a combination of those) far more readily than underfloor powered MUs.

What do people think? Is such a thing actually being considered by any TOC or ROSCO?
Absolutely stark raving bonkers idea. Next.
 

Energy

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Rather unnecessarily rude. I assume you can give us good reasons why rather than just ranting?
The trains are still 40+ years old, hydrogen or battery will not change that. Makes far more sense to just use an EMU for battery or hydrogen operations, what advantage does the short HST bring?
 

Meerkat

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The trains are still 40+ years old, hydrogen or battery will not change that. Makes far more sense to just use an EMU for battery or hydrogen operations, what advantage does the short HST bring?
Fair points, but you would be ripping out most of the important old bits, and if it fits in a power car you have interchangeable power units (handy on new tech) and you are putting all the heavy stuff in something built for the heavy stuff.
 

Energy

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Fair points, but you would be ripping out most of the important old bits, and if it fits in a power car you have interchangeable power units (handy on new tech) and you are putting all the heavy stuff in something built for the heavy stuff.
You may be ripping out most of the old stuff but what advantage does that bring over just sticking the equipment on an EMU?
 

Meerkat

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You may be ripping out most of the old stuff but what advantage does that bring over just sticking the equipment on an EMU?
You are using something built to be a power unit and you can swap the power units around, rather than whole trains. Which units would be converting to do the HST role?
 

43096

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Rather unnecessarily rude. I assume you can give us good reasons why rather than just ranting?
It's not a rant. :rolleyes:

Age.
Cost.
Technical difficulty.
Remaining life of vehicles.

That good enough for you?
 

Energy

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You are using something built to be a power unit and you can swap the power units around, rather than whole trains. Which units would be converting to do the HST role?
why would you want to swap the power units around? the HST mk3s are no use without a class 43.

It just makes more sense to stick the hydrogen stuff or batteries into a raft and put the raft on an EMU
 

Meerkat

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It's not a rant. :rolleyes:

Age.
Cost.
Technical difficulty.
Remaining life of vehicles.

That good enough for you?
Double counting! Those things are relative - what’s your alternative?
why would you want to swap the power units around? the HST mk3s are no use without a class 43.

It just makes more sense to stick the hydrogen stuff or batteries into a raft and put the raft on an EMU
Swap hydrogen power cars in as they become available, without buying a whole train, and swap spares in for broken ones without needing whole spare trains.
The hydrogen stuff doesn’t fit in a raft.
 

Energy

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Swap hydrogen power cars in as they become available, without buying a whole train, and swap spares in for broken ones without needing whole spare trains.
The hydrogen stuff doesn’t fit in a raft.
Why would you not buy a new train? Cost is the main factor but that isn't of much concern at the moment with cheap leasing. Time? Looking at the 769 project converting an existing train isn't going to be quick.

Hydrogen may not fit in a raft but it can be fitted to EMUs, look at the Coradia iLint.
 

CBlue

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HST's were only a stopgap originally and while they have lasted a long time, I think there is only so many times you can pull a "trigger's broom" job on them!
 

Meerkat

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Hydrogen may not fit in a raft but it can be fitted to EMUs, look at the Coradia iLint.
That’s European gauge .
The HSTs wouldn’t be a long term solution, but could be a decent pilot project. Particularly helpful having power cars as then you have the flexibility to make design changes on a spare and try it without taking whole trains out of service.
Only works if it can fit in the power cars though, which has been doubted above.
 

43096

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Double counting! Those things are relative - what’s your alternative?
How long do you think it will take to create even a prototype conversion? Have you not seen how long he 769 project is taking, and that for a conventional diesel?

My alternative - electrification. These bionic duckweed fads need knocking on the head wherever possible - and mainline HST worked services should be replaced by getting the wires up; they're not working a country branchline. Electrification is the obvious answer, rather than inefficient battery/hydrogen/whatever solutions.
 

Meerkat

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How long do you think it will take to create even a prototype conversion? Have you not seen how long he 769 project is taking, and that for a conventional diesel?

My alternative - electrification. These bionic duckweed fads need knocking on the head wherever possible - and mainline HST worked services should be replaced by getting the wires up; they're not working a country branchline. Electrification is the obvious answer, rather than inefficient battery/hydrogen/whatever solutions.
Even at the most optimistic rate when do you anticipate electrification reaching Penzance?
 

Energy

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Even at the most optimistic rate when do you anticipate electrification reaching Penzance?
Hopefully not too long, its still the GWML. Full electrification means no need for diesel engines in the 800/802s, saving weight and lower maintenance requirements.
 

Elecman

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Even at the most optimistic rate when do you anticipate electrification reaching Penzance?
With agreed finance and a rolling program and not using unnecessary over engineered foundations and steel work I would suggest 5 years would be a good guess
 

Meerkat

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With agreed finance and a rolling program and not using unnecessary over engineered foundations and steel work I would suggest 5 years would be a good guess
Wow! Thats somewhat optimistic considering how far down the priority list this line would be and the current rate of electrification!
 
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