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Waterloo International - here's a radical thought!
- Thread starter daccer
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The bus is OK but there's still the issues of luggage (crossing roads etc) and potential delays due to traffic and roadworks.
To be honest access to Eurostar from the SWML is so poor for people coming from say west of Winchester that air travel via Southampton Airport is a real alternative, especially now that access to the airport check-in from Southampton Airport Parkway station is so quick and easy.
To be honest access to Eurostar from the SWML is so poor for people coming from say west of Winchester that air travel via Southampton Airport is a real alternative, especially now that access to the airport check-in from Southampton Airport Parkway station is so quick and easy.
I was probably thinking of Warren Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To get back to the subject, there is also the vexed question of Regional Eurostar, that could separate from the main route at Stratford and would not have to run into St P at all. Terminating one service per hour at Man Picc would leave one slot per hour at St P.
Lampshade
Established Member
I was probably thinking of Warren Street.
Kings Cross St Pancras - Waterloo:
Victoria Line - Warren Street, Northern Line - Waterloo
Victoria Line - Oxford Circus, Bakerloo Line - Waterloo
Piccadilly Line - Leicester Square, Northern Line - Waterloo
Northern Line - Euston, Northern Line - Waterloo
45669
Member
We are hoping to move to Farnborough to be near the family. At the moment, we do King's Cross to Waterloo and back quite regularly and have tried various options, but not that one! In fact the Victoria line connects Victoria with The Cross or, better still, Finsbury Park. How long would it take, I wonder?
As long as we are not on a fast train, we use Finsbury Park to access the Victoria Line as it always seems quicker, and certainly easier, than fighting our way through the crowds at KX. We then change at Oxford Circus as, as has been said, it's only a few steps between the Victoria Line and the Bakerloo Line. Another option is to use the Met/Circle Line to Baker Street and change onto the Bakerloo Line there.
However, next time we go I shall look into the Clapham Junction option. We used to travel to Ash Vale before our daughter moved to Farnborough and not all the Alton line trains stop at Clapham, so that's why that option did not occur to me.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
My usual way of crossing from Waterloo is to use the Northern Line to Leicester Square and then the Piccadilly Line; it typically takes me 18 minutes, but that's without luggage and the advantage of knowing exactly where to be on the tubes.
And I have just this minute ( yes, seriously! ) realised that as I live in Epsom I should be heading towards Victoria... Or better still changing at Sutton - it's even a same platform connection in both directions! - for Thameslink... ( which is also an option at Wimbledon for those on the SW lines ).
And I have just this minute ( yes, seriously! ) realised that as I live in Epsom I should be heading towards Victoria... Or better still changing at Sutton - it's even a same platform connection in both directions! - for Thameslink... ( which is also an option at Wimbledon for those on the SW lines ).
bangor-toad
Member
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Hi there,
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this one:
Vauxhall - Kings Cross (Victoria line)
Many of the suburban trains stop at Vauxhall but few of the mainline SWT services do. I've done this many times and it is far less aggravation than changing tubes.
Cheers,
Jason
pablo
Member
..and change from mainline to suburban at CJ.
If your train stops there - not all do. And then you have to change platform at CJ (granted this will be easier for the less able or luggage laden once the lifts have been installed).
Having suffered through a whole year while going to college at Poole, I now think I must have been a bit of a clot. Still, my alternative northbound route was Waterloo-Bank-Moorgate-Finsbury Park-Hitchin. Southbound, I always used to get out at Charing Cross and walk over the bridge (for no apparent reason).
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
I have tried this and found it to be less than satisfactory - the exit stairs from the platforms at Vauxhall are quite steep and narrow ( which is not too much of a problem if you haven't got luggage, but I would not like to try it with luggage... ), the walk to the Underground station is not under cover ( fine unless it's raining! ) and don't forget that not all Victoria Line trains run through below Victoria ( most do these days though ).
asylumxl
Established Member
My prefered option is FCC from St Pancras to London Bridge, then SE towards Charring X, alighting at Waterloo East.
Lampshade
Established Member
Can you do that?
hock:I'm going down next week and returning with a considerable amount of luggage so want to avoid the Underground if possible.
That's what National Rail Enquiries keeps telling me to do - but I want a bagel from Waterloo
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asylumxl
Established Member
Can you do that?
I'm not sure about normal routing, as I've always used my Oystercard or Travelcard.
I don't see why not though.
45669
Member
I don't think that this is possible at weekends though. Please correct me if I am wrong.
What does surprise me is that, so far, no one has mentioned...wait for it...Mornington Crescent! I've won!
asylumxl
Established Member
No. Not currently due to no cross london trains on Thameslink.
45669
Member
As with so many threads, we seem to have wandered off the original subject matter. This was about the retention / reinstatement of Waterloo as a terminus for continental trains, not the best way to cross London!
It is clear that for travellers from the south west, Waterloo wins hands down; the extra time taken to reach HS1 is no worse, and far more comfortable, than time spent on the Underground, regardless of the route chosen. But for travellers from the north, St. Pancras is far better. And as there are more of them than there are of us...
Perhaps South West Trains could get some of the Hitachi high speed units and run a rival service to Margate or Dover? These could then connect into the continental services at Ashford if Eurostar were prepared to stop a few more trains there.
It is clear that for travellers from the south west, Waterloo wins hands down; the extra time taken to reach HS1 is no worse, and far more comfortable, than time spent on the Underground, regardless of the route chosen. But for travellers from the north, St. Pancras is far better. And as there are more of them than there are of us...
Perhaps South West Trains could get some of the Hitachi high speed units and run a rival service to Margate or Dover? These could then connect into the continental services at Ashford if Eurostar were prepared to stop a few more trains there.
Unfortunately I think most of us have come to the conclusion that direct international trains from Waterloo simply aren't going to happen (in our lifetimes anyway)
There are too many economic and practical reasons against it. There could be a case for a better link (ie direct no changes required) to HS1 from say Southampton to cater for people from the Salisbury and Bournemouth/Weymouth directions but, having had a quick shufti at the rail map, I'm not sure there's a direct route available.Unfortunately I think most of us have come to the conclusion that direct international trains from Waterloo simply aren't going to happen (in our lifetimes anyway)
This would be a bit slow, but it's possible to use West Coastaway, then the LBSC main line, reverse at Redhill, then via Tonbridge to Ashford, or possibly reverse at London Bridge and run via Dartford to Ebbsfleet. The south-to-east curve at Norwood Junction is another possibility (if it's still there) as the Lavender Hill-Wandsworth Road chord at Clapham (not sure if it is electrified though) if you want a direct route via Wimbledon.
You took the words right out of my mouth concerning the thread drift.
As far as I am concened, Waterloo is dead in the water, for a number of reasons. Running international high speed trains over an already crowded suburban third-rail dc network would be a retrograde step, and whilst it would utilise unused PLATFORM cpacity, the running paths it would occupy are a far greater consideration.
The cost AND disruption of throwing up OHLE 'knitting' into Waterloo is a possibility, but a time consuming and expensive one.
All the forgoing arguements as to WHICH London terminus are irrelevant anyway, considering those who chose to fly to Paris, Bruxelles, Koln and the like are quite prepared to travel up to 35/40 miles to reach an airport serving these destinations!
It would be realtively easy anyway to run lines off the HS1 route into Kings Cross, Euston, even Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street, any or ALL of these.
The MAJOR problem is Customs and Immigration facilities, not technically necessary between two European countries, but something that we Brits seem to continue to endure, for various reasons.
Otherwise, DB trains (even some Eurostar services) could terminate at Ebbsfleet and or Stratford, with onward connections as described above, especially onto Javelin services already in place.
The REAL dilema here is not the possibilities, ALL things ARE possible, it is IF the WILL is there to do it!
And, of course, the large sums of money needed to do things on the railway. Which, it seems likely, we won't be seeing a lot of for a few years......
As I've already explained, this is NOT a major problem, it's not even a problem at all. The new St Pancras was built with a huge immigration hall, so the only issue is getting it staffed - not a problem really, given how many staff the UKBA has in and near London. Customs is the same - in fact, last time I got off a train there I saw more customs officers (and dogs) than I've ever seen at any airport - and that despite (supposedly :roll
having arrived from another EU country.I agree with the rest of your post, however.
TGVDUDE
Member
My last ride with Eurostar (St Pancras - Calais Jan 2009) wasn't what I expected (in security anyway) due to my late arriving HST we only just made the 10 minute board after collecting our tickets, then showed our passports, walked through body scanner and up the escalator things, on to the train after walking through an empty departure lounge and not a security guard in sight, and no baggage checked. The return check at Calais, 20 mins before the late Eurostar arrival, Flash passports, body scanner and again, no baggage checked. Now these checks take place because Britain is not part of the Schengen Agreement, which makes the other European Operators, Thalys & DB for example operate 'normal' international with just meer passport check on board if i'm not mistaken.
As I've already explained, this is NOT a major problem, it's not even a problem at all. The new St Pancras was built with a huge immigration hall, so the only issue is getting it staffed - not a problem really, given how many staff the UKBA has in and near London. Customs is the same - in fact, last time I got off a train there I saw more customs officers (and dogs) than I've ever seen at any airport - and that despite (supposedly :roll
I agree with the rest of your post, however.
Unfortunately, you have taken this observation TOTALLY out of context of the entirity of my article, which was making the point that SEVERAL other destination options WERE, or could be, available.
Your comment about the vast customs hall at St. Pancras (strictly unneccessary between two EU member countries) is a fixed and immovable white elephant, and whilst HMG continue this abuse of power by insisting on enforcing customs restrictions on movement between EU member countries, it will preclude a simple rsolution to the expansion of traffic to and from the UK via the Channel Tunnel.
It's a vast immigration hall - the customs area is in reality just the exit corridor with a few signs on the wall.
However, it was late and I was confused so I'm sorry if the tone of my post was a little off. What I was trying to say was that immigration and customs services (yes, I know only we insist on keeping them) will necessarily follow the services, not vice versa. So when they moved to St Pancras we built a big hall for it, but if other stations were used they would go there too. I could charter a plane and fly between Clermont-Ferrand and Wick if I wanted: the government if it cared would have to send immigration officers to meet us, not demand we land at Gatwick to immigrate ourselves first. So while there are many reasons services aren't likely to resume from Waterloo any time soon, imo this isn't one of them.
Scouseinmanc
Member
45669 - for the majority of people St Pancras is most definitely more convenient.
I.e. everything north of Watford... Mcr, Liverpool, Brum, Glasgow...
I.e. everything north of Watford... Mcr, Liverpool, Brum, Glasgow...
Having sat out the back of the Betjamin pub waiting for a train on several occasions it has often struck me how few train movements there seem to be in and out of the Eurostar terminal, with units stabled in the platforms for long periods of time. I do wonder whether it would it be possible to clean and berth trains outside of the station to allow a more intensive use of the terminal platforms.
It would be perfectly possible, but at the moment there's simply no need. Why bother shunting when you don't have to? (Plus there's all the free advertising having the trains visible and not in a siding somewhere.) As soon as more trains want to use it they'll either make turnarounds quicker or use an alternative location for preparation and recuperation.
Hopefully one day we'll see trains to Italy and Germany (and perhaps some others) in there as well. It would be nice to see more use made of the place.
Impractical, but I would love to see it happen, also direct to the Netherlands and Switzerland. We already have the ski train in the winter, so the latter may already have a market. Doubt we'll ever see E*s at St Moritz however.
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