UK face coverings discussion

[trebor79]

Meanwhile although positive tests remain above 1,000, hospital admissions were below 100 today, there are less than 1,000 patients in hospital and hardly any occupying ventilator beds. Am I alone in thinking "so what if people are getting infected, they aren't actually getting ill."
Currently on holiday in Cornwall and compliance in Tesco this evening was 100%. A little bit more mixed in smaller establishments, but still rare to see someone unmasked.

 

[kez19]

This is becoming a bed bug of mine, even on my local buses I am seeing (when I say see I just mean overall I have not witnessed anyone dumping them) people dump the masks, at the start I seen one of the disposables dumped at the driver on the bus and today on a double deck top deck I seen one with a valve on the bus (I was going to take it off the bus as this is something I would do) but because we are in this I chose not too, why can people who use these things take things with them? We all get told to recycle/reuse but its pretty clear and I wouldn't be surprised either these people abide by the book when it suits but to things like that they can't be bothered.

May I suggest that if they are that quick in wanting to penalise people not wearing masks maybe it should be a priority that they fine people doing this on public transport (surely dumping masks is a danger in itself is not?).. apologies for rant but today especially it annoyed me (previous gloves/masks in car parks/buses)

EDIT: I know fining people is not the answer but the dumping of this sort of material needs nipped and its unfair to the genuine general public as well as people who run the transport system(s)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I see a lot of children in my line of work and my personal experience shows that many children are frightened of hospital professionals wearing masks - especially if it is their first time attending an appointment. As a matter of curtesy, I always ask the child if they want to see me with a mask on or off. And the parents are very happy that I am taking the trouble to ask

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2020 ==

This is becoming a bed bug of mine, even on my local buses I am seeing (when I say see I just mean overall I have not witnessed anyone dumping them) people dump the masks, at the start I seen one of the disposables dumped at the driver on the bus and today on a double deck top deck I seen one with a valve on the bus (I was going to take it off the bus as this is something I would do) but because we are in this I chose not too, why can people who use these things take things with them? We all get told to recycle/reuse but its pretty clear and I wouldn't be surprised either these people abide by the book when it suits but to things like that they can't be bothered.

May I suggest that if they are that quick in wanting to penalise people not wearing masks maybe it should be a priority that they fine people doing this on public transport (surely dumping masks is a danger in itself is not?).. apologies for rant but today especially it annoyed me (previous gloves/masks in car parks/buses)

EDIT: I know fining people is not the answer but the dumping of this sort of material needs nipped and its unfair to the genuine general public as well as people who run the transport system(s)

People dump rubbish (and masks) on buses (and trains) all the time. How do you propose encouraging people to take their rubbish/masks with them when they leave the bus/train? Indeed, I don't think imposing a fine is enforceable

 

[507021]

I have to say, I was very disappointed to see the security guard at one of my local supermarkets allow a man to enter the shop without a face mask the other day, especially as they're advertising that face masks must be applied before entering the store. I understand some people are exempt (I am myself, but I still choose to wear one), but the security guard didn't even ask for proof of exemption to be provided.

This is becoming a bed bug of mine, even on my local buses I am seeing (when I say see I just mean overall I have not witnessed anyone dumping them) people dump the masks, at the start I seen one of the disposables dumped at the driver on the bus and today on a double deck top deck I seen one with a valve on the bus (I was going to take it off the bus as this is something I would do) but because we are in this I chose not too, why can people who use these things take things with them? We all get told to recycle/reuse but its pretty clear and I wouldn't be surprised either these people abide by the book when it suits but to things like that they can't be bothered.

May I suggest that if they are that quick in wanting to penalise people not wearing masks maybe it should be a priority that they fine people doing this on public transport (surely dumping masks is a danger in itself is not?).. apologies for rant but today especially it annoyed me (previous gloves/masks in car parks/buses)

The amount of masks I see dumped in the street in my area is shameful.

 

[kez19]

I see a lot of children in my line of work and my personal experience shows that many children are frightened of hospital professionals wearing masks - especially if it is their first time attending an appointment. As a matter of curtesy, I always ask the child if they want to see me with a mask on or off. And the parents are very happy that I am taking the trouble to ask

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2020 ==



People dump rubbish (and masks) on buses (and trains) all the time. How do you propose encouraging people to take their rubbish/masks with them when they leave the bus/train? Indeed, I don't think imposing a fine is enforceable

Its common sense, I admit I work a mask today on the bus I wore it throughout the journey til I returned its not that hard, I think that is just the overall mentality of it .... its the lack of having any thats the problem.

I know we can look at the situation as a) being an accident or b) on purpose but if you had been wearing the mask in town onto transport why would the need be to drop it on floor and forget to pick it up? (in general)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2020 ==

I have to say, I was very disappointed to see the security guard at one of my local supermarkets allow a man to enter the shop without a face mask the other day, especially as they're advertising that face masks must be applied before entering the store. I understand some people are exempt (I am myself, but I still choose to wear one), but the security guard didn't even ask for proof of exemption to be provided.



The amount of masks I see dumped in the street in my area is shameful.

Common sense has left the building.....

I'm guessing in terms of shopping the security guard didn't want any aggression..

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I understand some people are exempt (I am myself, but I still choose to wear one), but the security guard didn't even ask for proof of exemption to be provided.

Proof of exemption is not required.

 

[BJames]

Proof of exemption is not required.

Quite. As it states clearly on the government website (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ngs-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own):

Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards.

Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

This is a personal choice and is not necessary in law.

I have to say, I was very disappointed to see the security guard at one of my local supermarkets allow a man to enter the shop without a face mask the other day, especially as they're advertising that face masks must be applied before entering the store. I understand some people are exempt (I am myself, but I still choose to wear one), but the security guard didn't even ask for proof of exemption to be provided.

In fact, just to add that if this is Sainsbury's, staff have been instructed not to ask customers if they have an exemption - they have been told it is a matter for police to enforce so as not to get staff in the firing line even more.

 

[507021]

Common sense has left the building.....

I'm guessing in terms of shopping the security guard didn't want any aggression..

I was tempted to point out the sign to him, but clearly I'd have been wasting my time.

Proof of exemption is not required.

I know it isn't, but in my opinion, it should be. There are far too many people in my area who think they're exempt and it's infuriating.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I know it isn't, but in my opinion, it should be. There are far too many people in my area who think they're exempt and it's infuriating.

I disagree. It's none of their business. I am not disclosing my medical history to some security personnel, nor the police

 

[DB]

I know it isn't, but in my opinion, it should be. There are far too many people in my area who think they're exempt and it's infuriating.

It's really none of your business as to why they are exempt. What exactly about it is 'infuriating'? It makes absolutely no difference to you.

 

[trebor79]

I know it isn't, but in my opinion, it should be. There are far too many people in my area who think they're exempt and it's infuriating.

Write to your MP then.
I really wouldn't worry about it in any case. I actually believe face coverings are disgustingly unhygienic and the day they are no longer mandated cannot come soon enough.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I know it isn't, but in my opinion, it should be. There are far too many people in my area who think they're exempt and it's infuriating.

How do you prove to somebody that wearing a face covering causes you "extreme distress"? Would you feel comfortable disclosing your medical history to anyone who asked?

 

[507021]

It's really none of your business as to why they are exempt. What exactly about it is 'infuriating'? It makes absolutely no difference to you.

I didn't say it was my business, and I'm not really interested as to why people are exempt if it is a genuine reason. What annoys me is one of my local supermarkets allowing customers to enter without masks, despite there being a sign saying masks must be applied before entering, whilst there's stories of bus drivers refusing to allow people without a mask on the bus despite them being exempt from wearing one. As someone who is exempt from wearing a mask due to having autism spectrum disorder, I do find it illogical that there's a guideline which only seems to be enforced in certain situations, but not others.

How do you prove to somebody that wearing a face covering causes you "extreme distress"?

Exactly my point, how am I supposed to prove I have autism if I'm challenged for not wearing one?

 

[DB]

I didn't say it was my business, and I'm not really interested as to why people are exempt if it is a genuine reason. What annoys me is one of my local supermarkets allowing customers to enter without masks, despite there being a sign saying masks must be applied before entering, whilst there's stories of bus drivers refusing to allow people without a mask on the bus despite them being exempt from wearing one. As someone who is exempt from wearing a mask due to having autism spectrum disorder, I do find it illogical that there's a guideline which only seems to be enforced in certain situations, but not others.



Exactly my point, how am I supposed to prove I have autism if I'm challenged for not wearing one?

The only people officially authorised to enforce it are the police (and, in London, TfL staff too I believe?). Other than them, it is nobody else's business and they should not be to be trying to enforce it.

 

[507021]

The only people officially authorised to enforce it are the police (and, in London, TfL staff too I believe?). Other than them, it is nobody else's business and they should not be to be trying to enforce it.

I can understand and accept that completely, it's just been a struggle for me to get my head around the enforcement of wearing masks (and who's allowed to enforce it) based on my own experiences or what I've read in news or on social media. My partner's tried explaining it to me as well, but I can imagine she felt like she was talking to a brick wall.

I'll do some more reading up on the guidelines tomorrow and hopefully I'll understand it a bit more!

 

[island]

What are the rights of school staff if a school, or Government, mandates it? Can they be sacked if they refuse to wear them?

If the government mandates it by regulation, then non-compliance would ultimately (presumably) result in prosecution and (again presumably) in the staff member’s dismissal.

Otherwise if mandated locally by management, non-compliance would (also presumably) become a disciplinary matter; most disciplinary policies have a category of misconduct described as “failure to follow a reasonable instruction from management”. This could ultimately lead to dismissal also, but there’s that word “reasonable” in there...

 

[talldave]

I didn't say it was my business, and I'm not really interested as to why people are exempt if it is a genuine reason. What annoys me is one of my local supermarkets allowing customers to enter without masks, despite there being a sign saying masks must be applied before entering

So you're not interested in peoples' exemptions but you want the supermarket to prevent them entering?

Remind me, when did supermarkets become responsible for law enforcement?

If the supermarket annoys you, shop elsewhere.

I'll do some more reading up on the guidelines tomorrow and hopefully I'll understand it a bit more!

Just enjoy the shopping and ignore everyone else?

 

[507021]

So you're not interested in peoples' exemptions but you want the supermarket to prevent them entering?

Remind me, when did supermarkets become responsible for law enforcement?

If the supermarket annoys you, shop elsewhere.

Unfortunately with my autism I sometimes find it hard to interpret situations, and more often than not put 2+2 together and get 17, which can be embarrassing. Clearly my experience at the supermarket the other day, combined with a complete misunderstanding of the rules and who can enforce them, was another example of this.

Just enjoy the shopping and ignore everyone else?

Believe me, I try to!

 

[MikeWM]

Meanwhile although positive tests remain above 1,000, hospital admissions were below 100 today,

...and we don't know how many of those admissions were for conditions caused by Covid, and how many were from people testing positive while in hospital for other reason, eg. getting an ingrowing toenail fixed or whatever.

there are less than 1,000 patients in hospital and hardly any occupying ventilator beds. Am I alone in thinking "so what if people are getting infected, they aren't actually getting ill."

No, you're not alone. The whole thing is increasingly crazy.

 

[sjpowermac]

Very true...

I genuinely hope kids don't have to wear them in schools. I can envisage them causing a significant distraction thus having a negative impact on learning massively.

Whilst I’m largely agnostic on the topic of masks, I do see your point.

 

[Bantamzen]

Unfortunately with my autism I sometimes find it hard to interpret situations, and more often than not put 2+2 together and get 17, which can be embarrassing. Clearly my experience at the supermarket the other day, combined with a complete misunderstanding of the rules and who can enforce them, was another example of this.

I can see why it could be confusing, many of the rules and laws around covid restrictions are poorly thought out and often are based on nothing more than a desire to be seen to be doing something. However with regards to masks, people who have physical or physiological reasons for not wearing masks are considered exempt & are not required to prove why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only people officially authorised to enforce it are the police (and, in London, TfL staff too I believe?). Other than them, it is nobody else's business and they should not be to be trying to enforce it.

Any business proprietor can enforce it if they wish as a condition of being served. The only people who can impose fixed penalties are the Police.

 

[Bantamzen]

Any business proprietor can enforce it if they wish as a condition of being served. The only people who can impose fixed penalties are the Police.

That is debatable. If someone has a genuine physical or physiological reason for not wearing a mask, any business refusing to serve them could in theory be taken to court for discrimination. And frankly any business trying to enforce such rules would deserve it in my opinion.

 

[Huntergreed]

That is debatable. If someone has a genuine physical or physiological reason for not wearing a mask, any business refusing to serve them could in theory be taken to court for discrimination. And frankly any business trying to enforce such rules would deserve it in my opinion.

As disability is a protected characteristic in the UK, that’s entirely correct I would believe.

I saw this sign in the cash converter in Paisley yesterday:


Does anyone know if this is legal? Clearly no exemptions are allowed by the wording.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is debatable. If someone has a genuine physical or physiological reason for not wearing a mask, any business refusing to serve them could in theory be taken to court for discrimination. And frankly any business trying to enforce such rules would deserve it in my opinion.

If they have a protected characteristic in law (which is narrower than many think it is), yes. But otherwise, no.

 

[adc82140]

There are lots of similar signs. Generally speaking I think that the exemption is unwritten and implied, in the same way that I doubt a guide dog would be thrown out of premises that say "no dogs"

 

[Bantamzen]

If they have a protected characteristic in law (which is narrower than many think it is), yes. But otherwise, no.

Given that law law allows exemptions, I'd tend to disagree with that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that law law allows exemptions, I'd tend to disagree with that.

The law allows exemptions to the statutory requirement to wear a mask. No part of that requires any business to respect those exemptions, because any business can be stricter than the law if it wishes - even, for instance, when mask law is eventually wholly abolished, it would be totally legal for any business to choose to retain a requirement if they wished. The exception to this is if it involves a legally protected characteristic, which as I said tends to be narrower than many people think it is.

A law could be passed stating "no business may require people to wear a face covering other than under the provisions of this law", but the fact is that it has not been.

(It amazes me just how many people think all discrimination is undesirable and illegal. I wonder how those people think job interviews work?)

 

[adc82140]

I have written to the Needles Landmark Attraction in the Isle of Wight. They are saying that government legislation means that all over 5s must wear a face covering (and funnily enough they are selling them). As they are a private enterprise, they can madate what they like, but they cannot claim that it's the law. I await their response.

 

[Huntergreed]

But surely as exemptions are based on medical conditions this would fall under the “disability” protected characteristic?

For instance, would it be legal for a business to refuse to serve someone because they are in a wheelchair or because they have learning difficulties?