Should GWR order class 195 CAF Civities to replace its DMUs (bar the 165/166)?

[SussexLad]

It's something that the DfT always look for, as part of DDA. I suppose you could mitigate by introducing station facilities but nobody wants that cost.

Sorry i don't buy it. The 313s don't have toilets, they replaced the new 377s. Further at southern they show no signs of going anywhere.

Also its the equalities act not DDA.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Provision of toilet facilities in public places for those with Chron’s has come up the disabled agenda in recent times.

So taking away toilet provision on existing services has become a bit more difficult.

 

[py_megapixel]

More than a little exaggeration given that a grand total of 137 Class 150s were produced. In my view no new DMUs should be procured, as Energy posted, as diesel will become increasingly unacceptable as a fuel. Northern is already an economic basket case too without even more new, presumably more expensive, units. Presumably the refurbishment (I'm not going to express views on the quality) undertaken is intended to keep existing class 150 units in service for several more years.

Sorry, meant to write sprinters, not specifically 150s

In any case I don't think replacing the GW ones without the Northern ones is sensible. You can make the argument about a poor financial case as much as you want, but there's no getting around the fact that they're going to need replacement in the not-so-distant future.

It's like choosing not to replace lightbulbs on a shop floor because there will be no direct return on the investment. Eventually you'll end up in complete darkness, which is entirely impractical for conducting business.
Similarly, you can choose not to replace sprinters, but eventually their reliability (which surely with worsen over time) and their outdated interiors will become a severe issue.
I'm not trying to claim that keeping the sprinters a bit longer wouldn't be cheaper for now, but soon it will be entirely impractical to keep them around much longer, and once they reach that point the entire fleet should be replaced at once in my opinion.

 

[Speed43125]

Sorry, meant to write sprinters, not specifically 150s

In any case I don't think replacing the GW ones without the Northern ones is sensible. You can make the argument about a poor financial case as much as you want, but there's no getting around the fact that they're going to need replacement in the not-so-distant future.

It's like choosing not to replace lightbulbs on a shop floor because there will be no direct return on the investment. Eventually you'll end up in complete darkness, which is entirely impractical for conducting business.
Similarly, you can choose not to replace sprinters, but eventually their reliability (which surely with worsen over time) and their outdated interiors will become a severe issue.
I'm not trying to claim that keeping the sprinters a bit longer wouldn't be cheaper for now, but soon it will be entirely impractical to keep them around much longer, and once they reach that point the entire fleet should be replaced at once in my opinion.

You talk of the cost, but given diesel trains have an expiry date now, it seems completely irresponsible financially and environmentally to order even more new ones. One would have to compare the presumably increasing maintenance costs for sprinters, with the added cost of eventually replacing or refurbishing 'new' diesels with OHLE/battery/Hydrogen when the time comes. Civities are, despite the mechanical drive, supposed to be easy to retrofit with different propulsion, in practice I am (pure conjecture mind) skeptical of the ease of converting them to run off 25kV.
hope my optimism for electrification will be met.

 

[py_megapixel]

You talk of the cost, but given diesel trains have an expiry date now, it seems completely irresponsible financially and environmentally to order even more new ones. One would have to compare the presumably increasing maintenance costs for sprinters, with the added cost of eventually replacing or refurbishing 'new' diesels with OHLE/battery/Hydrogen when the time comes. Civities are, despite the mechanical drive, supposed to be easy to retrofit with different propulsion, in practice I am (pure conjecture mind) skeptical of the ease of converting them to run off 25kV.
hope my optimism for electrification will be met.

I agree with everything you've said there.

I don't understand why the Civities were specced with a traditional transmission, rather than electric. Surely electric would make far more sense for conversion to EMUs in the future?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with everything you've said there.

I don't understand why the Civities were specced with a traditional transmission, rather than electric. Surely electric would make far more sense for conversion to EMUs in the future?

The answer was almost certainly "because it is cheaper". TOCs don't have to think ahead, as if they did only a bi-mode would make sense.

 

[Wolfie]

You talk of the cost, but given diesel trains have an expiry date now, it seems completely irresponsible financially and environmentally to order even more new ones. One would have to compare the presumably increasing maintenance costs for sprinters, with the added cost of eventually replacing or refurbishing 'new' diesels with OHLE/battery/Hydrogen when the time comes. Civities are, despite the mechanical drive, supposed to be easy to retrofit with different propulsion, in practice I am (pure conjecture mind) skeptical of the ease of converting them to run off 25kV.
hope my optimism for electrification will be met.

The financial case for a ROSCO would be interesting to see... Without longterm guarantees, ridiculous charges or both then not a hope in hell...

 

[James Kevill]

I think it's a great idea that GWR could order the new Civity fleets to replace the Class 150 Sprinters, Class 158 Express Sprinters, Class 165 Networker Turbos, Class 166 Networker Turbo Express and short formation HST sets. And Civity fleets could be classified as Class 198

 

[Wolfie]

I think it's a great idea that GWR could order the new Civity fleets to replace the Class 150 Sprinters, Class 158 Express Sprinters, Class 165 Networker Turbos, Class 166 Networker Turbo Express and short HST sets. And Civity fleets could be classified as Class 198

Hmmmm... It's an economic basket case, massively eco unfriendly given the energy costs of building new versus running midlife stock, and no ROSCO will go near it so overall pretty much zero chance.

 

[DB]

Given that they have just ordered more HST power door conversions, the chances of them being replaced within the next few years is approximately zero!

 

[Wolfie]

Given that they have just ordered more HST power door conversions, the chances of them being replaced within the next few years is approximately zero!

Yup. I imagine that such a procurement is based on at least 10 years in service...

 

[Speed43125]

Yup. I imagine that such a procurement is based on at least 10 years in service...

55 years for British diesel stock would be pretty incredible really for daily service (not just stop gap anglia 37s), you'd be edging Electric stuff like the koplopers or Swiss Crocodiles. In terms of diesel you'd be talking SNCF Class BB 69400s or the such. But for Britain, that's rather unprecedented

 

[Energy]

Yup. I imagine that such a procurement is based on at least 10 years in service...

I don't expect it to be too long term but a stopgap to allow other trains to be replaced. These trains were probably got by GWR (I believe they are now a franchise asset) very cheaply.

Hmmmm... It's an economic basket case, massively eco unfriendly given the energy costs of building new versus running midlife stock, and no ROSCO will go near it so overall pretty much zero chance.

Interestingly, Rock Rail who have financed AT300s, 701s, GA Flirts etc. said, in an article on Rock Rail that I can't now find, that they wouldn't be interested in financing WMR new diesel trains due to how short the life of the train will be. Rock Rail mainly look at how long the train will likely be in service for which is why for a lot of trains they can give cheap leasing as they are likely to remain in service for a long time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

55 years for British diesel stock would be pretty incredible really for daily service (not just stop gap anglia 37s), you'd be edging Electric stuff like the koplopers or Swiss Crocodiles. In terms of diesel you'd be talking SNCF Class BB 69400s or the such. But for Britain, that's rather unprecedented

It's LHCS, though, it's not a DMU shaking itself to bits. LHCS and EMUs do typically last a long time. But didn't the Class 101s come close to 50 years, and they were shaking themselves to bits every day of their lives!

I reckon, as an aside, that the 150s and 156s may well make it to their 40th, though the likely timing of an outright diesel ban will probably stop them getting to 50.

 

[Meerkat]

I reckon, as an aside, that the 150s and 156s may well make it to their 40th

Are the 156s better than 158s then? I had assumed that cascaded 158s would push out the 156s.

 

[DB]

These trains were probably got by GWR (I believe they are now a franchise asset) very cheaply.

The GWR HSTs are a mixture of franchise asset, Angel-owned and First-group-owned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are the 156s better than 158s then? I had assumed that cascaded 158s would push out the 156s.

No, they're just older and there's a DMU shortage so I wouldn't expect any non-Pacer DMU to be retired any time soon.

 

[DB]

Are the 156s better than 158s then? I had assumed that cascaded 158s would push out the 156s.

No, and I would expect the 156s to go first.

 

[Speed43125]

Are the 156s better than 158s then? I had assumed that cascaded 158s would push out the 156s.

The 90 mph gearing is a slight issue for putting 158s on everything, 156s with 75mph gearing are faster on shorter stopping services.

 

[Energy]

The GWR HSTs are a mixture of franchise asset, Angel-owned and First-group-owned.

The extra mk3s they are aquiring now look to be franchise assets, not sure about the power cars.

 

[DB]

The extra mk3s they are aquiring now look to be franchise assets, not sure about the power cars.

The extra ones, yes, I believe so - but the existing ones are Angel and First Group.

 

[popeter45]

bit off topic but the HST door conversion makes quite a bit on sense instead of buying/refurbishing DMU's as there is a path that could be taken to use them with a modified electric power car and for far less than brand new EMU's when a potential Diesel ban come into effect
its been done before with the 91's before the Mark 4's where ready

 

[DB]

bit off topic but the HST door conversion makes quite a bit on sense instead of buying/refurbishing DMU's as there is a path that could be taken to use them with a modified electric power car and for far less than brand new EMU's when a potential Diesel ban come into effect
its been done before with the 91's before the Mark 4's where ready

Unlikely to happen, because of the age of the Mk3s - it wouldn't be worth the cost of new traction units (HSTs do not use standard ETS either, which further complicates it).

 

[BayPaul]

You need them to go back to a depot for toilet emptying every day or two - doing that task remotely is not now permissible, nor is not providing toilets on existing services which have them now. The pure battery solution for the branch lines has been closely looked at by FG and found wanting - the turnrounds on key lines (such as the St Ives) can be under 5 minutes at both ends so fast charging is out. Several branch line units also work mainline turns so you don't want to have more fleet to cover existing work or to have to install more charging points.

The additional cost of driver training is also an issue - most branch lines see several drivers a day (for safety reasons) so D trains are definitely out on that ground alone (and for other reasons as well - top speed, seat capacity and political acceptablility) but something 2 or 3 car based on a 465/466 platform may very well be a runner, especially as if it has a HyDrive like self charging capability. GWR, as well as others, could use quite a few of those and that could be a real opportunity for Vivarail if they got their skates on.

I've just been looking at some of the details of the 701s bio reactor toilets. Could something like this help to avoid branch line trains needing to head back to the depot every couple of days?