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Flood Damage Near Polmont - 12/08/2020

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DarloRich

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Considering there are a few aqueducts a lack of stop gates seems near criminal to me.

That defeats the point of a contour canal.

It didn't drain completely - it seems Scottish Canals placed temporary damn structures either side of the breach, by which time the water level had dropped by around 500mm. It does mean we're haggling over whether it was 240 million litres or 720 million litres escaped, so totally academic.

Yes - the canal authorities dammed the canal as quickly as they could

I walked the Union Canal from the Almond Aquaduct to Falkirk wheel as part of my Lands End to John o Groats route last year. There's plenty of pinch points where a temporary barricade could be put in.

One was created either side of the breach. There is some info here: https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk/news/union-canal-closure-breach-at-muiravonside/
 
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Alanko

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I live in Winchburgh and the canal doesn't look noticeably lower. Does it fill up from somewhere? I've no idea how it works. How deep is it as well?

The water level was lower in Linlithgow last Friday. The boats at the canal centre were sitting on the mud. The water level was higher past the stop planks at the basin.

There is quite a chunky gate, that looks like it would block the canal, lying on the bank next to the water on Preston Road.
 

Meerkat

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That defeats the point of a contour canal
How so? You have a single set of gates that is only used for dewatering for maintenance and emergencies. They don’t impede normal traffic and don’t cost anything like a full lock with level change.
Considering that the canal was restored relatively recently and it has aqueducts i am surprised a risk assessment didn’t have them put in then.
The Basingstoke canal had stop gates put in for the railway aqueduct during the war, but also has other points where there are slots that beams can be dropped into to form barriers.
 

kje7812

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How so? You have a single set of gates that is only used for dewatering for maintenance and emergencies. They don’t impede normal traffic and don’t cost anything like a full lock with level change.
Considering that the canal was restored relatively recently and it has aqueducts i am surprised a risk assessment didn’t have them put in then.
The Basingstoke canal had stop gates put in for the railway aqueduct during the war, but also has other points where there are slots that beams can be dropped into to form barriers.
The union canal has these in spots, certainly at the edinburgh end. Maybe the breach occurred in an awkward place for the use of these.
 

InOban

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I believe that they were able to deploy a stop gate nearby on the Polmont side but there wasn't one for some distance on the Linlithgow side (might be other way round). They had to build a clay dam.
I wonder who's paying? The Canals were short of money anyway.
 

Meerkat

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I believe that they were able to deploy a stop gate nearby on the Polmont side but there wasn't one for some distance on the Linlithgow side (might be other way round). They had to build a clay dam.
I wonder who's paying? The Canals were short of money anyway.
I’m guessing Scottish Canals and their insurers are frantically reading small print!
 

PaulLothian

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Not sure if there are sockets for stop boards at the Avon Aqueduct, but I am almost certain that there are at each of three nearby road bridges to the east. Stop locks are a fairly expensive option and as the Union is a contour canal that is quite often elevated, logically it would require quite a lot, facing in both directions. I wouldn't want to do the business case analysis on that!
 

DarloRich

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I wonder who's paying? The Canals were short of money anyway.


The Scottish Government as Scottish Canals are a public corporation. Same as the UK government will pay for the repair work to the railway line being an out of plan emergency item. ( obviously that ultimately means you and me and every taxpayer)
 

philthetube

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Considering there are a few aqueducts a lack of stop gates seems near criminal to me.
I am not sure that gates would have helped much initially, in that weather there would be no one out to discover the problem as it happened, so only as the water level was noted to be dropping, then the cause would have to be found and people to get to the gates and operate them, all takes time.
 

swt_passenger

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I am not sure that gates would have helped much initially, in that weather there would be no one out to discover the problem as it happened, so only as the water level was noted to be dropping, then the cause would have to be found and people to get to the gates and operate them, all takes time.
There are a very few places where I’ve seen automatic stop gates that work by detecting the flow, eg on the Gloucester and Sharpness. But that’s a more serious waterway...

But meanwhile, Wiki reckons there were 19 flood control positions on the Union Canal in the distant past...
 

XAM2175

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The Scottish Government as Scottish Canals are a public corporation
Amusingly if you peel enough of the Scottish Canals label off they still have "British Waterways Board" written underneath, but yes they're a public corporation in the same way Scottish Water is.
 

swt_passenger

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Amusingly if you peel enough of the Scottish Canals label off they still have "British Waterways Board" written underneath, but yes they're a public corporation in the same way Scottish Water is.
That’s OK it seems, because Scottish Canals is the public name of the British Waterways Board, which transferred all its infrastructure in England and Wales to CRT:
”The British Waterways Board, operating as Scottish Canals, continues in Scotland as a stand alone public body following the transfer of the functions of the British Waterways Board in England and Wales to the Canal & River Trust on 2nd July 2012.”
 

rower40

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More electric trains shunting at Grangemouth, must be fun for the signallers
All automagically handled by ARS. A lot of 5Zxx ECS services shunting from one platform to the other at Falkirk Grahamston, by reversing on the Grangemouth branch. The only tricky bit is when the Short-Term Timetable Planners use the same number for two trains only a few minutes apart.
 

DarloRich

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Amusingly if you peel enough of the Scottish Canals label off they still have "British Waterways Board" written underneath, but yes they're a public corporation in the same way Scottish Water is.
That’s OK it seems, because Scottish Canals is the public name of the British Waterways Board, which transferred all its infrastructure in England and Wales to CRT:
”The British Waterways Board, operating as Scottish Canals, continues in Scotland as a stand alone public body following the transfer of the functions of the British Waterways Board in England and Wales to the Canal & River Trust on 2nd July 2012.”


Scotland took the decision to keep canals in government ownership. Legally I think they remain "British Waterways Board" but operate as Scottish Canals. In England canals were transferred to a charitable trust: Canal and River Trust
 

swt_passenger

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Scotland took the decision to keep canals in government ownership. Legally I think they remain "British Waterways Board" but operate as Scottish Canals.
... and isn’t that exactly what they say in the link I quoted and posted? o_O
 

CalF

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I’ve noticed a number of complaints on Twitter now about lack of replacement bus capacity between Falkirk Grahamston and Edinburgh Park, particularly at peak times.

Scotrail’s response is that they’re using all bus capacity available- I find that hard to believe as I can’t imagine coach hire companies have much other work at all at the moment.
 

najaB

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Scotrail’s response is that they’re using all bus capacity available- I find that hard to believe as I can’t imagine coach hire companies have much other work at all at the moment.
They didn't say that they're using all the buses in Scotland, just all the bus capacity that's available. Perhaps the coach hire companies have declined the job.
 

scotraildriver

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Scotrail are having significant challenges in sourcing rail replacement coaches at the moment due to a large number of coach operators choosing to keep their staff on furlough due to uncertainty, and also the requirement that all RR coaches are now required to be PSVAR compliant.
 

InOban

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The only coaches in use will be those needed for school transport.
 

philthetube

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Which is a high proportion of them, apart from tour companies who will hope to have work all year round, and who, if not operating will have drivers furloughed, most coaches earn their living by schools plus work at weekends and school holidays.
 

Crossover

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Scotrail are having significant challenges in sourcing rail replacement coaches at the moment due to a large number of coach operators choosing to keep their staff on furlough due to uncertainty, and also the requirement that all RR coaches are now required to be PSVAR compliant.
On the (bus) drivers bit, surely now the furlough is flexible, there is no barrier to getting drivers back as and when they are required, and shouldn't even factor into things (in fact, there will probably be more uncertainly if they don't start getting some work!)

The PSVAR ('Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000' for anyone else who, like me, hasn't a clue what the acronym means!) compliancy may be a bigger issue though?
 

scotraildriver

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On the (bus) drivers bit, surely now the furlough is flexible, there is no barrier to getting drivers back as and when they are required, and shouldn't even factor into things (in fact, there will probably be more uncertainly if they don't start getting some work!)

The PSVAR ('Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000' for anyone else who, like me, hasn't a clue what the acronym means!) compliancy may be a bigger issue though?
I don't know that actual issues but control have told me they are struggling to obtain enough PSVAR compliant vehicles from their operator database as a considerable number of their nominated contractors are still closed.
 

Meerkat

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On the (bus) drivers bit, surely now the furlough is flexible, there is no barrier to getting drivers back as and when they are required, and shouldn't even factor into things (in fact, there will probably be more uncertainly if they don't start getting some work!)
it’s not just drivers though - presumably the coach firms that are closed down have furloughed all the admin and maintenance staff as well. It’s probably not worth the admin of opening up the depot and unfurloughing/refurloughing unless it is several weeks guaranteed work
 

najaB

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On the (bus) drivers bit, surely now the furlough is flexible, there is no barrier to getting drivers back as and when they are required, and shouldn't even factor into things (in fact, there will probably be more uncertainly if they don't start getting some work!)
If the coach firms are in a similar position to the hotel/hostel sector then many companies have likely made their 2020 financial plans on the basis of zero income until close to Xmas, so bridging loans and/or lines of credit have been agreed with their banks already. It may not be worth it to open up for the volume of work that is on offer.

One owner I know has three locations, but only has one open at the moment and currently doesn't intend to open either of the other two until late September at the earliest. Between what they have in the bank and their prearranged line of credit he reckons he'd be okay until April or May next year (thanks to the furlough scheme).
 

Class 170101

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it’s not just drivers though - presumably the coach firms that are closed down have furloughed all the admin and maintenance staff as well. It’s probably not worth the admin of opening up the depot and unfurloughing/refurloughing unless it is several weeks guaranteed work

I think both of the blocks for Scotrail will be several weeks - certainly Polmont looks and NR said it will be several weeks.
 

route101

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Shotts line closed due to landslip. Only two routes to and fro Edinburgh now.
 
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