I don't know about other families, but ours seem able to remember when people have been around & so if anyone got infected we could easily work out who might have passed it on to whom.
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UK face coverings discussion
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I don't know about other families, but ours seem able to remember when people have been around & so if anyone got infected we could easily work out who might have passed it on to whom.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Probably true, but it's also fairly likely they'll hide their meeting from track and trace to avoid them having to isolate.
Well in that case, they would just be as likely to give false details when eating out. But we are straying off topic here.
RomeoCharlie71
Established Member
I don't believe it's mandatory to isolate if contacted by track and trace, and you are deemed to be a close contact?
Ludicrous/alarming experience outside the supermarket last night : I'm exiting the store and the woman who has just left ahead of me is chatting with someone about to go in. Turns out bloke going in hasn't got a mask and so thinks he can't go in. Woman coming out takes off her mask and passes it to him. 'I'm not going to catch anything horrible am I'? says bloke. 'No, it'll be fine' says woman, jokingly. 'Thanks, couldn't have gone in otherwise' says bloke, puts on mask, goes in!
I *wish* I were making that up! I suppose it does show that some people aren't exactly taking this terribly seriously.
I *wish* I were making that up! I suppose it does show that some people aren't exactly taking this terribly seriously.
Skimpot flyer
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Or in the case of the bloke, so darn seriously (believes he cannot enter the store) he’s prepared to risk catching any number of nasties!
I read this just minutes after nipping into M&S to buy a Kefir drink. No mask. No questions
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is, however, an extremely selfish act not to do so. If isolating would be a problem for your life (e.g. you couldn't work), you need to take action to minimise that risk. Just like someone for whom driving is their livelihood needs to take special care not to commit any driving offences, or someone for whom drug testing is part of their job needs to take special care to ensure they aren't exposed to drugs (even passively).
You wouldn't have thought so, which is why their behaviour is all the stranger. Even more so that most Governments around the world are acting equally bizarrely. Free(-ish) market capitalism, and the need to maintain the conditions in which it can prosper, is supposed to be a huge barrier to this sort of thing happening.
The very fact that the decisions of Governments around the world increasingly makes no rational sense, is what is leading to people turning to alternative explanations (or 'conspiracy theories', depending on your position).
HSTEd
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Well the obvious explanation is to look at voter preference by demographic.
The virus, as well as seasonal flu, overwhelmingly kills Tory voters.
Everyone who dies from it now can't be alive in 2024.
Also, infectious diseases are not normalised any more, which means any government that allows any deaths from it at all risks being destroyed by the backlash from a naive public.
HSTEd
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Well I suppose you could just keep your head in a fume hood all the time!
It seems that despite having continuous extraction, they don't view us as being safe from the deadly virus when we're in the lab.
But can you not see how unrealistic this is?
If you get a call from track and trace asking you to isolate because someone you were in the same restaurant as has tested positive, you’re supposed to tell your boss they you can’t come to work for two weeks? What if that happens more than once? What if you’re self emoloyed/zero hours etc?
What is “action to minimise the risk” of this happening? Are you suggesting these people should simply cease all social activity until we have a vaccine?
This doesn’t really affect you because you are lucky enough to have a job where you can work from home, but not everyone is in that position. I can well understand why people would ignore a fall from track and trace if it’s a choice between going to work or getting the sack at the start of the worst recession since records began.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No.
First of all, that's not how it works. They are interested in close contacts, not people the other side of the restaurant you have never been near.
Secondly...
It will be necessary to risk assess how you socialise in that case, just as someone who is regularly drug tested will need to refrain from going to places (e.g. certain businesses in Amsterdam even if not partaking) to ensure they are not accidentally going to fail a drug test due to passive consumption.
This doesn't mean no social activity. It means being especially careful to ensure you are always 2m from anyone not from your household, and that if you do have to go within 2m never breach 1m, and keep it under 15 minutes. It probably means not inviting friends into your house, and taking special care around any friends who think this is all a big joke and so are much more likely to be infected. And perhaps sitting outside at the pub rather than inside. And not car sharing with your mates. And so on.
It wouldn't affect my job. But it certainly would affect me mentally to not leave the house for 2 weeks. I did this at the start of July due to a medical issue meaning I could barely walk upstairs, let alone go anywhere. OK, to be fair, there was pain as well, but overall it had a massive impact on my mental health. For that reason I am taking extra care over distancing so far as possible to ensure that I don't get "contact traced".
If you'd get the sack or lose your house if you got a 14 day special, you need to be very careful. You have to treat the situation the same as if you were a "shielder", i.e. if you catch it you will get a very severe, possibly fatal, case. Because it is that important to you. As I said, exactly the same as if you drive for a living yet go round speeding, DWDCAA, using your phone while driving etc. If you do not take sensible precautions where the effect of being contact traced is serious, to be honest, you're a fool.
It is very foolish indeed to be blase about the situation then to moan if caught out as a result.
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Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Join the club!
I have to wear a mask whilst on public transport on my way to work. When I'm at work, I have to wear a mask (and gloves and visor) for at least 8-10 hours). Then I have to wear it whilst on public transport home. The backs of my ears hurt terribly.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Plenty of masks can be tied round the back of the head and so don't hurt your ears. As I think I recall you work in the NHS you probably can't use one at work like that, but you could on public transport.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
In my area of work, we only have elasticated ones.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You could purchase your own one with head ties for use on the journey, though, so at least your ears wouldn't be punished all day.
I wear a very thin neck warmer across my face when in a shop (although I've not worn it for more than 10 minutes at a time yet) and that's fairly comfortable so even if it's not good enough for work perhaps you could try one for use on public transport.
I guess we'd all better get used to spending the rest of our working lives wearing a piece of fabric across our face and suffering in the heat (it was 31-35 degrees in our lab at the start of last week), affecting normal conversation with colleauges (I never realised the importance of seeing someone's lips move until I had a conversation with someone wearing a
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Unless you're a year or two from retirement I think that's rather unlikely.
Must be terribly awkward to use the telephone, then. (Apologies if you do have telephobia)
You really think that T&T go to the trouble of figuring out who was a close contact or not, based on all the stories that have come out about it? I wouldn't be surprised if they just went through the list provided by an establishment of who was there at the same time and told them that they might be infected. Hell, that is all that they can do, unless the restaurant starts noting down table numbers, seating positions and handing over CCTV recordings
Can't speak for 6862, but I hate talking on the phone - I'd much rather speak face to face whenever I can
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Replied here:
Is the Government's contact tracing system effective and worthwhile?
Even though he got within a few thousand votes of a majority? Yes, even though he did. Had it been Starmer I'm certain they would have got a majority. Corbyn was simply too far left, in the presence of the SNP taking most of the Scottish left of centre vote, to ever actually win in the UK...
www.railforums.co.uk
I'm no great fan of the telephone, but the lack of seeing lips move has little to do with it (it's more because you tend to be put on the spot which also happens in person). It is harder to understand someone without lip-reading if it's noisy, but then that's a chance for businesses with poor acoustics (e.g. most railway station ticket offices!) to get that sorted.
I don't believe all these restrictions and rules (specifically face coverings) will be lifted in a 'year or two'. Things have changed far too much and far too quickly for this damage to be undone in such a small amount of time. Of course I hope I'm proved wrong, but when we live in a society as delusional as we do, I don't have much hope.
While I can see the humour in your comment, I think that speaking on the phone is very different from a face to face conversation. We naturally judge the other person's expressions far more in a face-to-face conversation than we realise, and you simply don't get that on the phone. So yes, having a phone conversation is 'awkward' - hence why when we want to comfort/console someone we would rather do it in person.
think it overwhelmingly kills BAME, and they are more likely to vote Labour.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm perhaps more optimistic (at least if a vaccine or effective treatment is found). However, I think we will get some of it carried forward permanently, such as a culture, like Asia, where if you do have an infectious disease (cold/flu) and are going out you wear one. I think that's a good thing, it shows a high level of consideration for others, and might consider doing it myself.
I think it's likely to stick around longer with air travel, though.
I think this is part of the problem. I don’t mean that rudely, I just think you have an unusually keen sense of “altruism” if that’s the right word. Your “altruism” is my “sinister hive mind” - if I wanted to be a little worker bee who thoughtlessly did whatever the government told me to I’d go and live in North Korea or China
(EDIT: I’m not saying I think @Bletchleyite is in that category himself, but that mentality is what I find so disturbing about collectivist cultures; absolutely anything can be justified for “the greater good”.)
How do they know where you’ve sat? How do they know whether you’ve gone to the gents at the same time as the person whose infected?
In any case many people I know (including myself) simply give false details because they don’t want their contact information used for goodness knows what purposes. That’s the same reason while I will never download the app.
This is a poor comparison. You cannot fail drug and alcohol tests through passive consumption, the levels required for a positive result are only reachable through active drug taking.
What your suggesting is the equivalent of saying that someone who does a job with a drug and alcohol policy cannot be in a pub or restaurant with someone who (unbeknownst to them) happens to be a drug user. Clearly that is not the case.
This simply does not reflect how most people I know socialise. Your circle of friends and acquaintances may be different, of course.
That places an unacceptable burden on a large proportion of the working population, and notably those at the lower end of the earning scales are disproportionately likely to be affected.
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HSTEd
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Nowhere near as overwhelmingly as it kills old people.
90% of the dead above 65
60% above 75.
RomeoCharlie71
Established Member
And how many of those were in care homes? ....
(I understand our approach to care homes at the outset was wrong, but it is no excuse, and is more than worth taking into account when looking at death rates amongst older people)
and how many of the over 65 were BAME? We were told COVID affected BAME disproportionately.
Baxenden Bank
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Well, I've just been into the detailed local level statistics (Middle Super Output Area).
link to .gov.uk coronavirus dashboard
To obtain the spreadsheet (or other format) click on the down arrow at the top right of 'cases by local area in England' and 'download card data'.
In the entire national emergency, there have been 8 cases (positive tests) in my neighbourhood. 4 in the week ending 24 April and 4 the following week. 1 death in May.
I'm not sure what the benefit of face coverings is if no-one has it in the first place. If I only go into the local shop (socially distanced), and only walk around the local area, the risk seems pretty slim. Who do I send the bill to for the cost of my disposable face-masks and re-usable face coverings? Looking a bit grim over the hill in Florence (aka Normacot) though. 35 cases in seven days, after a 12 week period with no identified cases.
link to .gov.uk coronavirus dashboard
To obtain the spreadsheet (or other format) click on the down arrow at the top right of 'cases by local area in England' and 'download card data'.
In the entire national emergency, there have been 8 cases (positive tests) in my neighbourhood. 4 in the week ending 24 April and 4 the following week. 1 death in May.
I'm not sure what the benefit of face coverings is if no-one has it in the first place. If I only go into the local shop (socially distanced), and only walk around the local area, the risk seems pretty slim. Who do I send the bill to for the cost of my disposable face-masks and re-usable face coverings? Looking a bit grim over the hill in Florence (aka Normacot) though. 35 cases in seven days, after a 12 week period with no identified cases.
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