UK face coverings discussion

[trebor79]

Is it me or does it seem inevitable that with the next easing we may see masks extended to outdoors in city/town centres. France has done this in city centres, Spain has made it law outdoors, and Italy has just mandated them in public places where distancing isn’t possible, it seems inevitable that this may be coming next given cases have risen in the last month.

Important distinction to be made here. Infections are not rising, in fact the ONS believes that they are falling.
The number of positive tests has risen and plateaued at about a thousand a day, but it's risen in line with an increase in the number of tests done. Also tests tend to be concentrated in hot spots, prime example the food factory where 300 workers have tested positive. The fact that despite testing being concentrated in hot spots the proportion of positive tests has remained at 0.5% suggests the ONS is correct in concluding that infection rates in the wider community are falling.

I think Boris knows there is little support for mandatory masks outdoors. I think he also knows people hate wearing them in shops, hence the increased penalties for anyone stupid enough to get fined for non-compliance (which will only happen of you gob off rather than just saying "I am exempt" is challenged).

 

[farleigh]

Yes - I tend to think Boris will not mandate masks in any further places

 

[DB]

Yes - I tend to think Boris will not mandate masks in any further places

He is likely to do something stupid close to the time schools go back in order to try to placate the Facebook Karens - the question is what.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes - I tend to think Boris will not mandate masks in any further places

Cant expect anything sensible from Boris. He's deluded and goes into hiding most of the time

 

[Richard Scott]

Cant expect anything sensible from Boris. He's deluded and goes into hiding most of the time

And can't even trust opposition to come up with a sensible alternative. Just when you need a strong opposition you don't get one.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

And in Italy, they will now be compulsory outdoors at all times in the whole country between 18:00 in the evening and 6:00 in the morning!
The policy will basically be exactly like what they have in Spain, except that as I stated above, it will only apply at nighttime. In broad daylight, there is no need to wear mask unless you're indoors, or outdoors where social distancing of 1m is not possible.

Here for more info: https://www.lastampa.it/cronaca/202...e-18-scatta-l-emergenza-nei-comuni-1.39200820

Translation into English:

Face masks will be compulsory outdoors as well, from 18:00 and a state of emergency is declared in the whole of Italy. After the decision of the government, followed by a comparison in a videoconference, which took over two hours between the ministers Francesco Boccia, Roberto Speranza, Stefano Patuanelli and the regional presidents, now the municipalities will need to implement measures. Not only checking that the law is being followed but also making sure that all citizens are wearing the most discussed object at the moment: these has been disagreements about the wearing of PPE but from tomorrow, everyone will have to wear them after the sunset, and not only in enclosed spaces and public transport.

In Taranto 250,000 PPE for residents

The municipality of Taranto has, as of today, announced to want to distribute to its residents 250,000 surgical masks over the next few days. In Apulia, the use of masks is compulsory in all outdoor spaces where social distancing of 1m can't be guaranteed. And now it will be everywhere from sunset to sunrise.

"We will have to work together, the virus can be defeated, but there is need of a big work to do together to avoid personal and collective sacrifices" - said Francesca Viggiano.

550,000 face masks in Campania

And in Campania, the regional president Vincenzo De Luca is ready to distribute 550,000 face masks for who works or spends their holidays on the coast.

 

[DB]

Not only our government which has taken leave of its senses then...

Is the virus now regarded as nocturnal?

 

[farleigh]

And in Italy, they will now be compulsory outdoors at all times in the whole country between 18:00 in the evening and 6:00 in the morning!
The policy will basically be exactly like what they have in Spain, except that as I stated above, it will only apply at nighttime. In broad daylight, there is no need to wear mask unless you're indoors, or outdoors where social distancing of 1m is not possible.

Here for more info: https://www.lastampa.it/cronaca/202...e-18-scatta-l-emergenza-nei-comuni-1.39200820

Translation into English:

Thank you for posting. I wonder what the mood of Italians is regarding this?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Thank you for posting. I wonder what the mood of Italians is regarding this?

According to this website: https://www.money.it/Risultati-sondaggio-giusto-indossare-mascherina-solo-chiuso

46% of people are in favour of wearing masks but only indoors (and that includes myself, remember I'm half Italian half British)
36% of people are in favour of wearing masks at all times
18% of people are against wearing masks

 

[farleigh]

According to this website: https://www.money.it/Risultati-sondaggio-giusto-indossare-mascherina-solo-chiuso

46% of people are in favour of wearing masks but only indoors (and that includes myself, remember I'm half Italian half British)
36% of people are in favour of wearing masks at all times
18% of people are against wearing masks

Thanks SEB. I did not know you were half Italian. Those stats are very interesting. I would like to move to Italy one day but perhaps when all this is over!

 

[trebor79]

Report in the Sunday Times today. Headline suggesting that most people in the UK now wear masks outside.
Upon reading the article, 98% of respondents to a survey reported that they had worn a mask "outside the home" in the past week. Well, shops are "outside the home", and most people go to shops once a week and most people are wearing them under duress.
Who article spun as saying we all like wearing them and that horrible "new normal" phrase made an appearance. But essentially it suggests most people do and want to wear them outdoors, but that isn't what they were actually asked in the survey.
Nudge unit is still at work.
Notwithstanding what I wrote a few hours ago, I'm again concerned we are being softened up for some ludicrous mask mandate extension.

That Italian law is totally ridiculous. Surely at night there's going to be hardly anyone out and about anyway?

 

[Richard Scott]

Report in the Sunday Times today. Headline suggesting that most people in the UK now wear masks outside.
Upon reading the article, 98% of respondents to a survey reported that they had worn a mask "outside the home" in the past week. Well, shops are "outside the home", and most people go to shops once a week and most people are wearing them under duress.
Who article spun as saying we all like wearing them and that horrible "new normal" phrase made an appearance. But essentially it suggests most people do and want to wear them outdoors, but that isn't what they were actually asked in the survey.
Nudge unit is still at work.
Notwithstanding what I wrote a few hours ago, I'm again concerned we are being softened up for some ludicrous mask mandate extension.

That Italian law is totally ridiculous. Surely at night there's going to be hardly anyone out and about anyway?

Well I can't say I've seen many people wearing masks anywhere other than where they are mandatory. Very few wear them out in the open air.

 

[bramling]

I think we have already reached that point and that is why Boris has increased the fine. I think this only gets peoples backs up all the more.

The fine is essentially irrelevant as few people are being “booked” in the first place. I’ve now completed two months of maskless public transport use, with no issues save for a fair few dagger looks.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Report in the Sunday Times today. Headline suggesting that most people in the UK now wear masks outside.
Upon reading the article, 98% of respondents to a survey reported that they had worn a mask "outside the home" in the past week. Well, shops are "outside the home", and most people go to shops once a week and most people are wearing them under duress.
Who article spun as saying we all like wearing them and that horrible "new normal" phrase made an appearance. But essentially it suggests most people do and want to wear them outdoors, but that isn't what they were actually asked in the survey.
Nudge unit is still at work.
Notwithstanding what I wrote a few hours ago, I'm again concerned we are being softened up for some ludicrous mask mandate extension.

That Italian law is totally ridiculous. Surely at night there's going to be hardly anyone out and about anyway?

Having spent most of the day outside, the actual proportion wearing them when out and about (as opposed to in shops) is less than 20%, and probably less than 10%. It really isn't very common, and stories like this are incredibly deceptive.

 

[bramling]

Well I can't say I've seen many people wearing masks anywhere other than where they are mandatory. Very few wear them out in the open air.

Must say I’ve noticed a bit of an increase in open-air use in the last couple of weeks. It’s still a tiny fraction, but there’s conspicuously more.

Bear in mind there were some wearing them back during lockdown, so it isn’t an entirely novel thing.

I will under no circumstances wear one in the open air, that is a complete red line, and I’d be up for some proper civil disobedience we’re that ever proposed officially.

 

[bramling]

TBH I'm of the view that most of what they're doing falls into this category, particularly as some people think they were late on the lockdown bandwagon.
If the government were going to go down the lockdown route then it is beyond doubt they were late into it, though it must be emphasised I have never been a supporter of it. I have said right from the start the boot should have been on the other foot, protect and isolate the vulnerable (esp hospitals and care homes) and everyone else just get on with life as normal. Nothing has happened to change my mind that that would have been the right course, in fact I'm more sure than ever.
Local restrictions shouldn't be used, I doubt they achieve anything significant. I think we're way past the stage where any significant lockdowns / social distancing / quarantine achieves anything much at all, particularly when their social and economic cost is factored in*. But, of course, it isn't being factored in, the world is myopic (apart from Sweden), this is the biggest over reaction in the history of the world..

* If we were in NZ or Australia (and there was hope for a vaccine) maybe, but we're not.

I think the “a week or two late into lockdown” is going to be something we’re going to hear more about in the medium term, once we get to the stage where the handling of all this is being reviewed. I tend to agree with the view that if lockdown was going to happen then it should have been earlier, as that would presumably have reduced its duration considerably.

 

[Jonny]

Why should we need to be "tricked" into using a vaccine? Vaccines have saved millions of people from serious illness or death caused by diseases like polio, smallpox and measles which are now almost unknown in much of the world. Do you really think we'd be better off without them?

I've replied on another thread, see https://www.railforums.co.uk/posts/4724977/ regarding vaccination. Please can we move vaccine-related chat there. Thankyou.

 

[yorkie]

Report in the Sunday Times today. Headline suggesting that most people in the UK now wear masks outside.
Upon reading the article, 98% of respondents to a survey reported that they had worn a mask "outside the home" in the past week. Well, shops are "outside the home", and most people go to shops once a week and most people are wearing them under duress.....

Agreed; and not only that I have worn a mask outside, as if I am going from one shop to another, it doesn't make sense to remove it, if the distance between them is short. And as you say, people are generally only doing so under duress, not because they want to.

I think the “a week or two late into lockdown” is going to be something we’re going to hear more about in the medium term, once we get to the stage where the handling of all this is being reviewed. I tend to agree with the view that if lockdown was going to happen then it should have been earlier, as that would presumably have reduced its duration considerably.

Let's have that particular discussion in a new thread, but I also suggest waiting a few more months, by when the long term effects of different strategies around the world will be much clearer.

I will under no circumstances wear one in the open air, that is a complete red line, and I’d be up for some proper civil disobedience we’re that ever proposed officially.

York city centre has signs up encouraging this, but almost no-one is going to take any notice of this request, except when moving between nearby shops. I agree if it became the law, there would be mass protests. I think the Government realise they're at the limit now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not only our government which has taken leave of its senses then...

Is the virus now regarded as nocturnal?

The reason will probably be that people mostly gather, socialise and drink in the evening (and are doing this outside rather than in bars, without distancing), with other activities taking place earlier on.

I don't think it is necessary because spread is demonstrably low outdoors, but that will be the rationale. Worth working out what it is before ridiculing it, even if you disagree with it.

 

[talldave]

York city centre has signs up encouraging this, but almost no-one is going to take any notice of this request, except when moving between nearby shops. I agree if it became the law, there would be mass protests. I think the Government realise they're at the limit now.

I hope you're right, but I fear you're not.

 

[island]

And in Italy, they will now be compulsory outdoors at all times in the whole country between 18:00 in the evening and 6:00 in the morning!
The policy will basically be exactly like what they have in Spain, except that as I stated above, it will only apply at nighttime. In broad daylight, there is no need to wear mask unless you're indoors, or outdoors where social distancing of 1m is not possible.

Here for more info: https://www.lastampa.it/cronaca/202...e-18-scatta-l-emergenza-nei-comuni-1.39200820

Translation into English:

The Independent suggests they are only required outdoors at night near bars and pubs where gatherings are likely.

Italy to shut nightclubs and introduce face masks outdoors after coronavirus cases rise

Country’s health minister warns country against ‘nullifying’ sacrifices made in recent months

www.independent.co.uk

Italy will shut nightclubs and make masks compulsory in some outdoor areas after a rise in coronavirus cases across the country.

The reimposition of restrictions came after data showed new cases in the past week were more than double those registered three weeks ago, with the median age of people contracting Covid-19 dropping to below 40.

The restrictions will come into effect on Monday, two days after the Ferragosto holiday which usually sees young Italians go to nightclubs, and will run until early September.

Masks will be mandatory between 6pm and 6am in areas close to bars and pubs or other areas where gatherings are likely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you may have a translation error, and the requirement is effective all day every day from the 18th of August, not from 6pm. Can you flag which part of the article says it is only at night-time?

No, it's correct, and the reason, as I said, would be that Italians (particularly in cities) socialise outside bars in the street, very close to one another and with classic Italian touchy-feelyness, in the evening, but outside bars masks aren't required. In normal circumstances it's a great atmosphere but I can see why they think it an issue.

 

[island]

I realised that after a minute and edited my reply to say something else

 

[adc82140]

There is obviously a difference between what people say and what they do. Imagine you're being asked questions by a pollster. "Do you wear a mask in shops". Answer "yes". Who is this pollster? Are they going to report you to someone? (Well no, but a lot of people will be thinking this).

My observation of mask wearing over the last week has seen a massive drop in compliance, and I'd say 90% are now not wearing them properly, and 50% not wearing them at all.

In Kingston last week, the Bentall Centre was deserted, the Apple Store looked like they were expecting a queue as they had velvet ropes and lots of security. There was not a single customer at 12pm on a Wednesday. Outside was a bit better, mask wearers were removing them to walk between shops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't go to shopping centres as I find them purgatory at any time. However, in supermarkets and local shops I have observed compliance to be very near 100%.

I have also noticed a considerable north-south divide - almost nobody wearing masks in the street in MK (those who are are invariably obviously old, so probably in shielding groups, or Asian and so in a "mask culture" anyway), but lots of people wearing them "up north". This may be because of the known issues in Lancashire and Greater Manchester.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I don't go to shopping centres as I find them purgatory at any time. However, in supermarkets and local shops I have observed compliance to be very near 100%.

I have also noticed a considerable north-south divide - almost nobody wearing masks in the street in MK (those who are are invariably obviously old, so probably in shielding groups, or Asian and so in a "mask culture" anyway), but lots of people wearing them "up north". This may be because of the known issues in Lancashire and Greater Manchester.

Out of curiosity, whereabouts "up north"? My experience here in Newcastle is almost exactly like how you describe Milton Keynes, though of course if it's a GM/Lancashire effect you wouldn't expect to see it in the North East.

 

[Andyh82]

I've also observed near 100% compliance, and in terms of 'in the street' - its easier to leave them on if you moving from a shop to another one 2 doors down. I know some here will theatrically remove it and put it on again 20 seconds later to make a point.

I'm slightly suspicious when those who are the most against masks, are the ones reporting that nobody is wearing them

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of curiosity, whereabouts "up north"? My experience here in Newcastle is almost exactly like how you describe Milton Keynes, though of course if it's a GM/Lancashire effect you wouldn't expect to see it in the North East.

Only Ormskirk and Lancaster for now, if I end up in any other Northern places I'll report!

I think it may well be a Lancashire effect; those two places aren't in the lockdown area but I suspect people are strongly wanting to avoid being brought into it (and some people may well think they are if they aren't very well informed).

 

[westv]

There was a post on twitter the other day from LNER with a short video abou

I don't go to shopping centres as I find them purgatory at any time. However, in supermarkets and local shops I have observed compliance to be very near 100%.

I have also noticed a considerable north-south divide - almost nobody wearing masks in the street in MK (those who are are invariably obviously old, so probably in shielding groups, or Asian and so in a "mask culture" anyway), but lots of people wearing them "up north". This may be because of the known issues in Lancashire and Greater Manchester.

In Hull hardly anybody in the street but almost everybody in shops.

 

[talldave]

I'm slightly suspicious when those who are the most against masks, are the ones reporting that nobody is wearing them

it is what it is, regardless of how suspicious you are. I've observed an increase in non-wearers and have reported on it as I see that as positive progress.

It's pointless to wear a mask in a supermarket to protect against something that apparently needs 15 minutes of sub 1m contact to pass on. Gradually the public are realising this. Oh, and I also noticed that all the staff in Sainsbury's aren't dead either after 6 months of not wearing masks.