How could the proposed Hoo/Sharnal Street station be served?

[thebigcheese]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...unding-for-hoo-sharnal-street-station.205468/

The provisional services are for a two trains per hour peak service to London (via Gravesend/Dartford/Lewisham) via the existing chord on the North Kent Line and an all-day service to Strood (via a reinstated chord). Ideally this service would be extended to the Medway towns.

How about an extending the Medway Valley line? It's 2/3 car services could be ideal for the Hoo route.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

How about an extending the Medway Valley line? It's 2/3 car services could be ideal for the Hoo route.

That would be good.

 

[eastwestdivide]

How about an extending the Medway Valley line? It's 2/3 car services could be ideal for the Hoo route.

See also the quote from post 5 above, speculation from the Railfuture people: "...could lead to the Strood services being combined with the Maidstone/Paddock Wood (Medway Valley Line) services"

Edit, after this post was moved, my "post 5 above" no longer makes any sense. I was referring to the Railfuture comments mentioned in this post over on the other thread here:

Medway Council gets funding for Hoo/Sharnal Street station

Just been looking at the master plan for a lot of housing development around Hoo St Werburgh, as well as the industrial estate + Amazon warehouse by Kingsnorth. The conclusions of the plan are that: It is highly unlikely to be viable to provide new rail infrastructure along the peninsula and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[cle]

Otherwise, unless SDO, wouldn't the Hoo platforms need to be 12 cars? Maybe Medway Valley is a better start?

 

[Mikey C]

Otherwise, unless SDO, wouldn't the Hoo platforms need to be 12 cars? Maybe Medway Valley is a better start?

Why wouldn't they build a new station with 12 cars anyway? You imagine getting a direct "commuting" train to London is the main priority, if you have to go to Strood and then change, that's not that much of an improvement over a connecting bus

 

[30907]

Why wouldn't they build a new station with 12 cars anyway? You imagine getting a direct "commuting" train to London is the main priority, if you have to go to Strood and then change, that's not that much of an improvement over a connecting bus

I imagine traffic to and from the Medway Towns is expected to be significant, not just Londonwards? And Higham not Strood would/could be the interchange point for London.
However there would be little point NOT including a Gravesend service and for operational convenience that would need to be 12 car-capable. (Unless they decide on 6-395 from St Pancras detached from the Medway service?)

 

[cle]

Why wouldn't they build a new station with 12 cars anyway? You imagine getting a direct "commuting" train to London is the main priority, if you have to go to Strood and then change, that's not that much of an improvement over a connecting bus

There is a lot of difference between bus and rail - and certainly interchanging between them. Plenty of studies to check out if you think they are equivalent drivers of passenger flow and experience. People might work in Maidstone too, or of course, the Medway Towns - and not own/want to own a car, but hate the bus.

Maybe demand is only there for a shorter service and modest station (quicker start) - to be expanded if it takes off.

Overall of course, if this is a new alternative terminus for traditional Dartford line services, it should fit them. Or 8 cars for Victoria. I don't think the HS1 services are worth sending here.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Thread re-awakened...

https://bit.ly/2XTd1jF

 

[30907]

Thread re-awakened...

https://bit.ly/2XTd1jF

Looks a very detailed document about the Dartford group of lines. Is it worth a new thread?
At a quick skim the relevance to Sharnal Street is
(1) a proposal to served it by an extended Crossrail rather than SE.
(2) a reference to a curve at Hoo Jn allowing a Sharnal St-Strood-Maidstone service.
Have I missed something?

 

[Mikey C]

The authors seem very keen on sending Crossrail trains deep into Kent. The lack of toilets doesn't seem to bother them...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Looks a very detailed document about the Dartford group of lines. Is it worth a new thread?
At a quick skim the relevance to Sharnal Street is
(1) a proposal to served it by an extended Crossrail rather than SE.
(2) a reference to a curve at Hoo Jn allowing a Sharnal St-Strood-Maidstone service.
Have I missed something?

Mentions Sharnal Street quite significantly.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The authors seem very keen on sending Crossrail trains deep into Kent. The lack of toilets doesn't seem to bother them...

Considering the ‘376s’ used to work Strood to Charing Cross / Cannon Street services with journey times north of 75 minutes, so a supposition of journey times of less than 70 minutes on a Crossrail service between Strood and Bond Street I suspect it won’t bother most. Just don’t go out on the lash and then need to pee...

 

[30907]

Mentions Sharnal Street quite significantly.

The foreword reads (my bold):

Following the announcement that the Housing Infrastructure Fund should provide the necessary capital for services to a new “Hoo Peninsula”
station at Sharnal Street, it is important to overlay our previous document which need not be amended save for extension of some trains to the Hoo Peninsula. This is a positive step for all concerned and a “Parkway” for High Halstow, Cooling, Hoo and Stoke will provide vastly better sustainable transport

I don't think there was much doubt that a Londonward train service would be needed, and they are saying the service they planned (Crossrail to Gravesend) could accommodate it.

 

[mister-sparky]

There’s something from Medway Council in the local papers website about the Charing Cross to Gravesend terminators being extended.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There’s something from Medway Council in the local papers website about the Charing Cross to Gravesend terminators being extended.

Seems a shame.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Thread re-awakened...

https://bit.ly/2XTd1jF

Looks interesting

But with the recession and TfL’s finances in the toilet I’m not sure we’ll be seeing any CrossRail extension to Gravesend anytime soon, much any other TfL developments, I reckon it’ll be 2040 if it does happen.

However Covid has massively changed things in society, more and more people working from home, this will be here to stay a lot of companies are amending their work structure.

People are leaving London for pastures new, maybe not in their droves mind you, but the outer suburbs in particular have become very attractive in recent times due to lockdown

 

[NorthKent1989]

There’s something from Medway Council in the local papers website about the Charing Cross to Gravesend terminators being extended.

Might have been better to extend the CX-Dartford via Woolwich down to Sharnal Street, for CrossRail connectivity

 

[eastwestdivide]

While having a lot of detail, the document at post 8 above is from "lewbex", the Lewisham & Bexleyheath Community Rail Partnership, who as far as I can tell have no official status.
A few more details on lewbex via https://www.thekentishbelle.co.uk/community-rail-partnership

 

[30907]

Might have been better to extend the CX-Dartford via Woolwich down to Sharnal Street, for CrossRail connectivity

Indeed, but in the grand scheme of things that's a minor tweak.

 

[Class465pacer]

Ideally 2tph to LCC via Woolwich Arsenal and 2tph to Tonbridge via Maidstone West. The 191 bus can take people to Medway

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sharnal Street sounds like a godsend, it’ll certainly ease the pressure off Dartford & Gravesend as terminals.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ideally 2tph to LCC via Woolwich Arsenal and 2tph to Tonbridge via Maidstone West. The 191 bus can take people to Medway

Not totally sure about Charing Cross via Woolwich. Seems an unlikely extension.

 

[30907]

Not totally sure about Charing Cross via Woolwich. Seems an unlikely extension.

I was wondering where LCC was, thanks....
Realistically, it has got to be an existing service extended from Gravesend or Dartford.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Not totally sure about Charing Cross via Woolwich. Seems an unlikely extension.

Why’s that?

It’s the most logical, with the new Town they’re building, the Woolwich line has better connectivity, at Abbey Wood CrossRail will be up and running by 2021/22 (ish) plus DLR interchange at Woolwich Arsenal, also the Greenwich Peninsula area is fast becoming a hub of entertainment and shopping, the only other service I could see being extended down there is the Sidcup fasts

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why’s that?

It’s the most logical, with the new Town they’re building, the Woolwich line has better connectivity, at Abbey Wood CrossRail will be up and running by 2021/22 (ish) plus DLR interchange at Woolwich Arsenal, also the Greenwich Peninsula area is fast becoming a hub of entertainment and shopping, the only other service I could see being extended down there is the Sidcup fasts

Well you mention Greenwich Peninsula for shopping, but let's be brutally honest it's not a reason for a service there when the key requirement will be a positive commuter flow. Whilst more people are likely to change at Gravesend for High Speed, you've already got the Maidstone West > Gravesend > Dartford > Woolwich > London service coming; and you're therefore most likely to end up with either a Victoria to Gravesend extension or a Charing Cross to Gravesend via Sidcup extension. The latter seems more logical as the Victoria trains don't go to Gravesend at peak time.

A quick browse over your previous posts suggests you basically advocate everything going through Woolwich. That's all well and good, but it's not always the right answer...

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well you mention Greenwich Peninsula for shopping, but let's be brutally honest it's not a reason for a service there when the key requirement will be a positive commuter flow. Whilst more people are likely to change at Gravesend for High Speed, you've already got the Maidstone West > Gravesend > Dartford > Woolwich > London service coming; and you're therefore most likely to end up with either a Victoria to Gravesend extension or a Charing Cross to Gravesend via Sidcup extension. The latter seems more logical as the Victoria trains don't go to Gravesend at peak time.

A quick browse over your previous posts suggests you basically advocate everything going through Woolwich. That's all well and good, but it's not always the right answer...

Well a lot is going on along that line...Aside from CrossRail, Erith and Belvedere are getting loads of new homes, plus a new Thames crossing at Thamesmead, last time I read there was talk of a shopping centre at Belvedere though this might not happen now.

I think we’re all guilty of wanting improvements on our local lines, you seem to be an advocate of the Bexleyheath line, that’s fair enough, improvements need to be made on all the South Eastern lines in my opinion but this is not the thread now is ...

Besides aren’t the proposed Maidstone service dependent on whether HS1 services serve there?

 

[Swanny200]

So are we talking only services coming from the West? I must admit when I lived there, getting to Strood from anywhere on the Isle of Grain was a nightmare although I left there over a decade ago is there any scope for trains from Gillingham/Sittingbourne or the coast or would it be a case of changing at Gravesend and double backing?, I am assuming there is still freight that uses that line regularly too?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Well a lot is going on along that line...Aside from CrossRail, Erith and Belvedere are getting loads of new homes, plus a new Thames crossing at Thamesmead, last time I read there was talk of a shopping centre at Belvedere though this might not happen now.

I think we’re all guilty of wanting improvements on our local lines, you seem to be an advocate of the Bexleyheath line, that’s fair enough, improvements need to be made on all the South Eastern lines in my opinion but this is not the thread now is ...

Besides aren’t the proposed Maidstone service dependent on whether HS1 services serve there?

I advocate good travel for all, and that means balancing everyone off against each other for a greater good. Does a bit of shopping at Belvedere or new homes at Erith decide where the Sharnal Street train should go? They're not going shopping in Belvedere. They've got Bluewater and Medway on their doorstep!

But, most importantly, I have no doubt you'd love direct trains from Woolwich to everywhere but it's not viable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So are we talking only services coming from the West? I must admit when I lived there, getting to Strood from anywhere on the Isle of Grain was a nightmare although I left there over a decade ago is there any scope for trains from Gillingham/Sittingbourne or the coast or would it be a case of changing at Gravesend and double backing?, I am assuming there is still freight that uses that line regularly too?

I assume freight will still go there no mention of it closing.
It’s definitely a good call having Sharnal to Kent services

 

[30907]

So are we talking only services coming from the West? I must admit when I lived there, getting to Strood from anywhere on the Isle of Grain was a nightmare although I left there over a decade ago is there any scope for trains from Gillingham/Sittingbourne or the coast or would it be a case of changing at Gravesend and double backing?, I am assuming there is still freight that uses that line regularly too?

No, there is a specific proposal (quoted in #1) for a Strood service which will obviously be the Medway Valley service extended.