Should Class 230 units have fewer doors?

[markymark2000]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-introduction-on-the-borderlands-line.191986/

They have too many doors in my opinion.

 

[Chris125]

Too many doors in my opinion.

Seems fine to me, but too many doors is a better problem than not enough...

 

[markymark2000]

Seems fine to me, but too many doors is a better problem than not enough...

It's serving a lightly used Borderlands line, not the busy Castlefield Corridor. More doors means less seats. Seats are important as if passengers don't get seats, they find alternative ways of travelling (A common complaint on trains is 'why do I pay £x when I can't even get a seat and have to stand all the way').

Personally, I prefer LNWRs layout but I do admit the front end does look a lot nicer on the TFW sets.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Seems fine to me, but too many doors is a better problem than not enough...

I guarantee that people will still use one door only per carriage to join the train!

 

[8H]

It's serving a lightly used Borderlands line, not the busy Castlefield Corridor. More doors means less seats. Seats are important as if passengers don't get seats, they find alternative ways of travelling (A common complaint on trains is 'why do I pay £x when I can't even get a seat and have to stand all the way').

Personally, I prefer LNWRs layout but I do admit the front end does look a lot nicer on the TFW sets.

These units have rather more seats than the 150’s and the increase in timetable frequency is intended to grow patronage, it is busy in normal times on this route if not all day so more doors are good especially as stations are close together and turn around times at Wrexham Central and Bidston are tight too. Thumbs up to the 230 from me anyway!

 

[DavidGrain]

They are single leaf doors. Had the number of doors been reduced they would have had to be double leaf which would have meant a major reconstruction of the body shell. That would have put the cost up to about the cost of a brand new unit. These are local trains not long distance inter-cities. The whole purpose of these trains is as a cheap alternative for lines which would not justify the cost of brand new units. I have ridden on the Marston Vale 230s and I think that they are fit for purpose.

Does anyone know when crew training will start? As the first two units will be at Birkenhead today, I am assuming that TfW will have training plans in hand for starting soon.

 

[markymark2000]

These units have rather more seats than the 150’s and the increase in timetable frequency is intended to grow patronage, it is busy in normal times on this route if not all day so more doors are good especially as stations are close together and turn around times at Wrexham Central and Bidston are tight too. Thumbs up to the 230 from me anyway!

I really cant see having 4 single leaf doors being of much use for the line. Having the 4 doors means that there is less airline style or table seats and instead more longitudinal. Longitudinal seating is only beneficial on high usage, high frequency commuter rail. Borderlands line isn't that. As I've said, I support the 230s, just not the 4 doors on each side per carriage.

They are single leaf doors. Had the number of doors been reduced they would have had to be double leaf which would have meant a major reconstruction of the body shell. That would have put the cost up to about the cost of a brand new unit. These are local trains not long distance inter-cities. The whole purpose of these trains is as a cheap alternative for lines which would not justify the cost of brand new units. I have ridden on the Marston Vale 230s and I think that they are fit for purpose.

I wouldn't have said do double leaf doors, just have it as LNWR has with 2 doors on each side on the main body.

 

[Nymanic]

Until I know anything more, I'd guess it's a matter of money.

Perhaps the cost of blanking out the doors outweighs the additional maintenance costs from keeping them all? Add to that the improved capacity and frequency vs 150s, and the possibility of new(er) stock if patronage improves and/or the line is upgraded.

It's cheap and cheerful, but it'll do until a longer-term plan for the line comes together.

 

[8H]

I really cant see having 4 single leaf doors being of much use for the line. Having the 4 doors means that there is less airline style or table seats and instead more longitudinal. Longitudinal seating is only beneficial on high usage, high frequency commuter rail. Borderlands line isn't that. As I've said, I support the 230s, just not the 4 doors on each side per carriage.




I wouldn't have said do double leaf doors, just have it as LNWR has with 2 doors on each side on the main body.

Well we will have to wait and see I suppose! If I think of the queues in the vestibules at Bidston for example comprising passengers all wanting the cross platform interchange on busy Saturdays like a mini Farringdon! I would have thought a spread of doors for egress is advantageous for this reason too.

 

[DavidGrain]

If they have four doors each side then that is what TfW specified not Vivarail.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The single-leaf doors on D-stock are wider than any other single-leaf doors on the network. They were a bit narrow for LU use but should be fine for the routes they'll be on. I can't imagine that four doors per vehicle side are really required on the Borderlands, but there probably isn't the necessity to remove any (other than where a toilet is fitted) either.

 

[Skie]

It’s worth bearing in mind that these units are here to cheaply prove that the line is worthy of more investment. Increasing the frequency and capacity will hopefully drive much more demand over the next few years.

Raise demand and you can justify an investment for a more permanent solution. There is the conveniently timed delivery of the neighbouring 777 fleet happening, which has an option to buy many more units if they need them for extensions. And they’re battery capable too (subject to testing).

 

[kieron]

I wouldn't have said do double leaf doors, just have it as LNWR has with 2 doors on each side on the main body.

The current timetable is built on the assumption that a station call can be completed within 30 seconds. The 230s have narrower doors than the 150s had, so the concern may have been that blanking some of them off would make these timings harder to achieve.

LNWR seem to have scheduled longer station calls for their units, so they wouldn't benefit as much from having extra doors.

 

[markymark2000]

The current timetable is built on the assumption that a station call can be completed within 30 seconds. The 230s have narrower doors than the 150s had, so the concern may have been that blanking some of them off would make these timings harder to achieve.

Remind me, how many people board and alight each train normally at stations? I don't think I have ever seen more than 10 passengers board/alight at a Borderlands station.
That said Based on 12 people boarding/alighting per stop combined (12 passengers is used as it's an easy example for the maths.) a 3 carriage train with 2 doors per carriage means 6 doors which equates to 2 people boarding/alighting per door set. That should be doable within 30 seconds surely. Even double the numbers and you should still manage it in 30 seconds if there is a good crew who are on the ball.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The current timetable is built on the assumption that a station call can be completed within 30 seconds. The 230s have narrower doors than the 150s had, so the concern may have been that blanking some of them off would make these timings harder to achieve.

Good luck with that. Door operation on the Marston Vale units is glacially slow, and so they lose time even on the loose schedule. They've been slowed down from their Tube days, have the retarder removed (so they slam really hard, shaking the unit) and when they are released the beeps sound for about 5 seconds before you get the button lit up. Also the crew controls are awkwardly positioned so the guard takes probably a couple of extra seconds to release over a Class 15x. They really need to sort it, and I hope they do for the Welsh units or you'll need to add 30 seconds to each station stop to avoid losing time.

Definitely the worst aspect of the design.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes the 230 doors are quite odd, the first time i was on one i thought the door was broken as it took so long to open!