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Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

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Londonguard

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Why would you need a "second pair of eyes" in the driver's cab for? There's only so much area that's going to be important - and it's directly in front of you. It's not like an aircraft where a threat could come from any dimension.

there are allowances in the rule book for the guard to assist the driver in examining the line, especially in poor visibility. Given the poor weather and possible poor visibility it could have happened. I, and I’m sure many colleagues have done it. So there is a need.
We don’t know if that is the situation in this case, or if the guard was assisting customers, either way my thoughts are with the driver and guards family.
Both went to work and were looking after customers in trying circumstances, a truly awful tragedy.
 
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yorkie

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Why would you need a "second pair of eyes" in the driver's cab for? There's only so much area that's going to be important - and it's directly in front of you. It's not like an aircraft where a threat could come from any dimension.
This subject has been extensively discussed already (see posts 953 and 957)
 

43096

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Likely all passenger vehicles will be written off. Leading PC also. Hard to say from the photos what chassis damage may have been suffered by the rear PC
It wouldn’t be a surprise if vehicles are cut up on site given the remote location and difficulty getting lifting gear to site.
 

43096

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Yeah from the pictures I doubt anything except maybe the rear powercar is salvageable
Only the rear power car might be salvaged, though it may depend on what internal and underframe damage has been done. All four coaches and 43140 are write offs.
 

DB

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It wouldn’t be a surprise if vehicles are cut up on site given the remote location and difficulty getting lifting gear to site.

Will RAIB not want to take them to a works somewhere for further examination? I know this was done with the Greyrigg Pendolino.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I thought this was worth reposting from Rail Technology Magazine regarding what immediate action Network Rail is taking.


Summary:

  • As an instantaneous precaution, dozens of sites nationwide with higher-risk trackside slopes, similar to Stonehaven, will be reviewed.
  • These will be carried out by both in-house engineers and specialist contractors and will be supplemented by helicopter surveys.
  • In the light of the current extreme weather conditions we have mobilised our extreme weather action teams. They already monitor the network and will incorporate immediate learning into their plans as soon as it becomes available.
  • Additionally, we are in dialogue with meteorologists to understand how we can strengthen real time information for flash flooding caused by unpredictable extreme weather to inform our train operations, in cooperation with our industry partners.
  • Our engineers are reviewing our existing programme for remote monitoring of high-risk sites to test whether this can go faster or further.
 
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92002

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Only the rear power car might be salvaged, though it may depend on what internal and underframe damage has been done. All four coaches and 43140 are write offs.
The rear power car and coach, the firstclass/buffet coach could well be saved. Assuming there is no damage below the solebar area. The rest are liable to be removed to a safe place and cut up. After all the investigations have taken place.
 

Speed43125

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The rear power car and coach, the firstclass/buffet coach could well be saved. Assuming there is no damage below the solebar area. The rest are liable to be removed to a safe place and cut up. After all the investigations have taken place.
EfN9FJKXoAEStNn.jpg
look at the damage near the corridor connection, and what looks to be the bogie and undercarriage ripped off towards the centre of frame it's the coach on the right, unless the wabtec work is very expensive I see no reason to salvage such a ubiquitous and common vehicle when there are plenty sitting around unused.
 

DB

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The rear power car and coach, the firstclass/buffet coach could well be saved. Assuming there is no damage below the solebar area. The rest are liable to be removed to a safe place and cut up. After all the investigations have taken place.

That coach looks to have structural damage to the vestibule at the end away from the power car, and given its position, underframe damage is also highly likely. Very much doubt if it's salvageable.
 

92002

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That coach looks to have structural damage to the vestibule at the end away from the power car, and given its position, underframe damage is also highly likely. Very much doubt if it's salvageable.
There's currently a good number of first open coaches parked up. So it could be cheaper just to convert another.
 

Bletchleyite

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There's currently a good number of first open coaches parked up. So it could be cheaper just to convert another.

I would suspect that it will all be scrapped and a completely new set will be converted to replace it. It's an unusual situation compared with newer stock as the base vehicles are now relatively cheap.
 

_0x40

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As I'm sick of speculation, I'll say that 1T08 didn't get to the obstruction it was stopped by Carmont signaller prior to it as another train had reported the landslip.

Regardless, the reason for it going back to Stonehaven is completely academic. The fact is, the line at the site of the derailment was clear when 1T08 passed through it in the up direction, and was also clear when 2B13 passed through it in the down direction.

So nobody was any of the wiser. The line should have been safe and clear to run on at line speed, but it wasn't and people died as a result. That is currently under investigation by the police (BTP and civil), the RAIB, ORR, Network Rail and ScotRail.

The only evidence of timings - ie, what time 1T08 reverse working departed for Stonehaven will be in the train register book at Carmont. Which is why (well, one of the reasons why) it is being treated as a crime scene.

The landslip was probably in the worst possible place it could have been, with zero chance of the driver being able to do anything (I'd be surprised if he managed to throw the brake in before hitting it), because it was after a fairly tight left hand bend in a cutting just after the transition point to a fairly tight right hand bend with a fair bit of cant. The driver likely didn't even see it before hitting it, and (speculation based on the evidence from the aerial shots) the front bogie derailed to the left, it tracked across towards the left due to the right hand bend and cant and the bridge got in the way.

It's an absolute tragedy, and as a member of railway staff and an incident investigator, I'm absolutely gutted about it.

However, everyone needs to show a bit of restraint with the speculation, particularly on the timings, how long that train may or may not have been derailed before being reported, the mechanics of the derailment, the actions of the driver and conductor, and the behaviour of the rolling stock. None of us know, we're not on scene, we're not investigating it, it's just annoying armchair internet guessing - and really insensitive guessing at that.

Wait for the RAIB / ORR or BTP to release something concrete - it'll be fairly soon, for sure.

PS: And no, the guard would not have been in the front cab. Period. He had no reason to be there - the line was clear and safe to run on as far as everybody was concerned. The man died doing his job. Stop speculating about his actions.
 

Ianno87

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Yeah from the pictures I doubt anything except maybe the rear powercar is salvageable
Only the rear power car might be salvaged, though it may depend on what internal and underframe damage has been done. All four coaches and 43140 are write offs.

Although may be more economical to return another stored power car to service (e.g. one of the small collection stored at Ely)
 

158756

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If you combine that photo with the aerial footage, D looks to be the one that's down the embankment

In the aerial footage the coach down the embankment is on it's side and both ends (as far as we can see) look to have largely retained their shape. Coach D is upside down and squashed - I think it must be the coach perpendicular to the line at the bottom of the pile.
 

EC54

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As I'm sick of speculation, I'll say that 1T08 didn't get to the obstruction it was stopped by Carmont signaller prior to it as another train had reported the landslip.

Regardless, the reason for it going back to Stonehaven is completely academic. The fact is, the line at the site of the derailment was clear when 1T08 passed through it in the up direction, and was also clear when 2B13 passed through it in the down direction.

So nobody was any of the wiser. The line should have been safe and clear to run on at line speed, but it wasn't and people died as a result. That is currently under investigation by the police (BTP and civil), the RAIB, ORR, Network Rail and ScotRail.

The only evidence of timings - ie, what time 1T08 reverse working departed for Stonehaven will be in the train register book at Carmont. Which is why (well, one of the reasons why) it is being treated as a crime scene.

The landslip was probably in the worst possible place it could have been, with zero chance of the driver being able to do anything (I'd be surprised if he managed to throw the brake in before hitting it), because it was after a fairly tight left hand bend in a cutting just after the transition point to a fairly tight right hand bend with a fair bit of cant. The driver likely didn't even see it before hitting it, and (speculation based on the evidence from the aerial shots) the front bogie derailed to the left, it tracked across towards the left due to the right hand bend and cant and the bridge got in the way.

It's an absolute tragedy, and as a member of railway staff and an incident investigator, I'm absolutely gutted about it.

However, everyone needs to show a bit of restraint with the speculation, particularly on the timings, how long that train may or may not have been derailed before being reported, the mechanics of the derailment, the actions of the driver and conductor, and the behaviour of the rolling stock. None of us know, we're not on scene, we're not investigating it, it's just annoying armchair internet guessing - and really insensitive guessing at that.

Wait for the RAIB / ORR or BTP to release something concrete - it'll be fairly soon, for sure.

PS: And no, the guard would not have been in the front cab. Period. He had no reason to be there - the line was clear and safe to run on as far as everybody was concerned. The man died doing his job. Stop speculating about his actions.
Well said ox40. Why would a guard be wanted in the cab never mind the fact he isn't allowed in. There was no reason to think there was any impending danger ahead as he had already passed that same point earlier coming from Aberdeen, add in another train coming from Montrose had passed over the incident point also round about 7am. . The only slight bit of confusion at the moment is what happened from 7:15 when the train involved arrived at Carmont box and the incident being reported at 9:45 ish. which seems an excessive time gap, however this will be cleared up in the enquiry. It looks like the landslip happened just before the train got there and with line of sight very limited on the twisted bends in that area, and a potential speed of up to 75mph there would be no chance to avoid the derailment.
 

SteveT

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As I'm sick of speculation, I'll say that 1T08 didn't get to the obstruction it was stopped by Carmont signaller prior to it as another train had reported the landslip.

Regardless, the reason for it going back to Stonehaven is completely academic etc...
You have almost answered a question I was going to ask i.e. what made the driver turn back and how far had he gone before deciding to do so (if it was he who made the decision).

The only part of your message that I am not certain about is in your first line: "another train had reported the landslip". Which landslip and which train travelling in which direction?
 

_0x40

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You have almost answered a question I was going to ask i.e. what made the driver turn back and how far had he gone before deciding to do so (if it was he who made the decision).

The only part of your message that I am not certain about is in your first line: "another train had reported the landslip". Which landslip and which train travelling in which direction?

2B13, whilst travelling on the down line reported a landslip on the up between Laurencekirk and Carmont. The signaller at Carmont then made a GSM-r REC to stop all trains in the vicinity.

I don't think 1T08 was far from Carmont at the time, as it was booked to pass through the same time as the call was made.

That's why 1T08 had to turn back at Carmont.

Driver's don't make decisions to turn back. That's up to Network Rail route control to organise and the signaller(s) to implement, and the driver is instructed what to do.
 

EC54

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You have almost answered a question I was going to ask i.e. what made the driver turn back and how far had he gone before deciding to do so (if it was he who made the decision).

The only part of your message that I am not certain about is in your first line: "another train had reported the landslip". Which landslip and which train travelling in which direction?
If you dont mind me answering steveT
The driver turned back either because the signalman at Carmont advised him he could not continue his journey because the line ahead was unsafe or obstructed, (maybe reported by the train that was already running in front of him) which answers your 2nd question, or he noticed himself the line ahead was as unsafe and reported it to the signalman. Then the signalman and network rail control decide the next course of action which was to use the crossover at carmont SB and cross over on to the correct line (down main) and return to Stonehaven/ Aberdeen.
 

EC54

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2B13, whilst travelling on the down line reported a landslip on the up between Laurencekirk and Carmont. The signaller at Carmont then made a GSM-r REC to stop all trains in the vicinity.

I don't think 1T08 was far from Carmont at the time, as it was booked to pass through the same time as the call was made.

That's why 1T08 had to turn back at Carmont.

Driver's don't make decisions to turn back. That's up to Network Rail route control to organise and the signaller(s) to implement, and the driver is instructed what to do.
I never new this bit 0x40 that regarding 2 B13, which clears up the reason as to why he was instructed to turn back.
 

SteveT

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Driver's don't make decisions to turn back. That's up to Network Rail route control to organise and the signaller(s) to implement, and the driver is instructed what to do.
Well, yes, but my point was that (as EC54 writes) he may have seen danger ahead and, not knowing if it had already been reported, did so himself i.e. as far as he was concerned it was his observation that was critical.

What is so unfortunate (so it appears) is that between first passing and then returning to Carmont Bridge, the landslip occurred.
 

Yew

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The rear power car and coach, the firstclass/buffet coach could well be saved. Assuming there is no damage below the solebar area. The rest are liable to be removed to a safe place and cut up. After all the investigations have taken place.
Given the number of HST MK3's that are becoming available, this seems unlikely


(As this is my first post on this thread, I'd also like to offer my condolences to the families of the deceased, and wish a speedy recovery to those who are injured. Finally I'd like to thank everyone involved in the response/rescue efforts)
 

_0x40

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Well, yes, but my point was that (as EC54 writes) he may have seen danger ahead and, not knowing if it had already been reported, did so himself i.e. as far as he was concerned it was his observation that was critical.

What is so unfortunate (so it appears) is that between first passing and then returning to Carmont Bridge, the landslip occurred.
I don't get what you're saying to be honest - I've already cleared this up once in a previous post.

If he saw something which is an immediate danger to trains, he would either make an urgent call to the signaller or hit the red button on the GSM-r. Any driver would - they're professional train drivers.

But he didn't, because another driver going in the opposite direction (2B13) reported the landslip obstructing his line, the signaller did what he was supposed to do and the incident train (1T08) was stopped well before it got to that landslip. The decision was then made to turn the train back. How long it sat at Carmont for - only the signaller knows that.

After 2B13 passed the site of the derailment heading towards Stonehaven, nothing else travelled on either line until the derailment. So there was nobody to report that landslip.
 

ainsworth74

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I think we're done here now for the time being. The information that is available has been shared and chewed over and I think now there's little else to add for the time being.

Thank you to all for your contributions over the past few days. Its been a difficult few days for the railway and will likely continue to be so for some time but for the most contributions here have been informative and respectful.

Once the RAIB publish any updates please feel free to report this post and the Forum Staff will reopen the thread for further discussion. If anyone thinks there is another reason to post an update then feel free to also report this post and give details of what that update is and the Forum Staff will consider reopening to allow further discussion.

Otherwise thank you all,

ainsworth74
 

ainsworth74

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Edit 21/08/2020 - The below update from the RAIB has been withdrawn and replaced by a new one which can be found here.

There have been some update from the RAIB this afternoon firstly an outline of events and their lines of enquiry:

Passenger train derailment near Carmont, Aberdeenshire

Investigation into a passenger train derailment near Carmont, Aberdeenshire, 12 August 2020.

The RAIB is investigating a fatal accident that occurred near Carmont on the national rail network in Scotland.

At around 09:40 hrs on Wednesday 12 August 2020, all six vehicles of a passenger train derailed after striking a landslip around 1.4 miles (2.25 km) north-east of Carmont, Aberdeenshire. There were nine people on the train at the time of the accident; three train crew (the driver, conductor and a second conductor travelling as a passenger on this train) and six passengers. Tragically, the driver of the train, the train’s conductor and one passenger suffered fatal injuries in the accident. The remaining passengers and member of train crew were taken to hospital.

The site of the accident was approximately four miles (6.4 km) south-west of Stonehaven and 20 miles (32 km) north of Montrose, on the double track main line which runs between Dundee and Aberdeen. The train, which was operated by Abellio (trading as ScotRail), was a High Speed Train set with a leading power car, four Mark 3 passenger coaches and a rear power car. It had originally been operating as train reporting number 1T08, the 06:38 hrs service from Aberdeen to Glasgow Queen Street. Train 1T08 had departed on time from Aberdeen and then from Stonehaven, its next scheduled stop. After departing Stonehaven, the train continued past Carmont on the up (southbound) line until it was stopped by the signaller at Carmont, using a radio message. This was because the signaller had just received a report from the driver of a train on the down (northbound) line that a landslip was obstructing the up line between Carmont and Laurencekirk.

Google Earth image showing key locations

Google Earth image showing key locations

When it became apparent that train 1T08 could not continue its journey south, the decision was taken to return it to Aberdeen, and it was routed back over a crossover at Carmont onto the down line. After travelling for approximately 1.4 miles (2.25 km), the train struck a landslip covering the down line and derailed. As the track curved to the right, the train continued in a roughly straight line for around 100 yards (90 metres) until it struck a section of bridge parapet, which was destroyed. The leading power car continued over the bridge and then fell from the railway down a wooded embankment, as did the third passenger carriage. The first passenger carriage came to rest on its roof, having rotated to be at right angles to the track. The second passenger carriage also overturned onto its roof and came to rest on the first carriage. The fourth passenger carriage remained upright and attached to the rear power car; it also came to rest on the first carriage. All wheelsets of the rear power car derailed, but it remained upright.

Aerial photograph of derailment site

Aerial photograph of derailment site

We are currently collecting evidence needed to identify factors relevant to the cause of the accident and its consequences. The scope of the investigation is likely to include:

  • the sequence of events and the actions of those involved
  • the operating procedures applied
  • the management of earthworks and drainage in this area, including recent inspections and risk assessments
  • the general management of earthworks and drainage and associated procedures designed to manage the risk of extreme weather events
  • the behaviour of the train during, and following the derailment
  • the consequences of the derailment and a review of the damage caused to the rolling stock
  • underlying management factors
  • actions taken in response to previous safety recommendations
We will publish our findings, including any recommendations to improve safety, at the conclusion of our investigation. This report will be available on our website.

The RAIB’s investigation is independent of any investigation by the railway industry, and of the joint investigation instructed by the Lord Advocate to be carried out by British Transport Police, Police Scotland and by the industry’s regulator, the Office of Rail and Road.


And then a short statement from Simon French the Chief Inspector:

Short statement from Simon French, Chief Inspector of Rail Accidents

Passenger train derailment near Carmont, Aberdeenshire.

Following the tragic accident near to Carmont, my thoughts, and those of all of my colleagues at the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB), are with the families of the three people who lost their lives.

It’s the job of the RAIB, the UK’s independent rail accident investigation body, to identify the immediate and underlying causes of the accident, and to make safety recommendations to reduce the risk to the UK’s travelling public and rail employees alike.

Thankfully, fatal derailments are a rare occurrence on the UK’s national network. However, landslips and other earthworks failures remain a risk to trains that needs to be constantly managed – and this is becoming even more challenging for the rail industry due to the increasing incidence of extreme weather events.

We have an expert team at the site of the derailment who are the gathering the evidence that is needed to understand what happened, and why. They share my determination to pursue every line of enquiry, to analyse the evidence, and to identify important safety learning.


For the time being the thread will remain closed as these are updates however thank you for everyone who brought them to our attention. Please feel free to report this post when further updates or other reasons we should consider re-opening the thread come to light.
 
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ainsworth74

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With thanks to @Sentinel for the below stills from drone footage available via the Dundee Courier which more clearly show the landslip:

28E28D28-1C58-4135-9FCC-CEA08D43E629.jpeg

BDEF857E-480D-40C6-9C18-A2058A8DED18.jpeg

Again please do feel free to report this post with any updates from official sources or other reasons that we may wish to consider posting an update. One minor request though is that if you do get in touch please provide a link (if available) to whatever the update is. It makes it much easier for us to track things down and avoid having to guess what you may be referring to!
 

ainsworth74

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The the third member of train crew who walked to the signal box, injured, to raise the alarm has been identified:

Stonehaven train crash: Praise for ‘heroic’ Huntly woman who hobbled miles to raise alarm after tragedy

A heroic railway worker who walked three miles while injured to raise the alarm after the horrific train crash “should be given an OBE”.

Nicola Whyte, from Huntly in Aberdeenshire, works as a conductor but was off duty at the time she was travelling on the 6.38am service when it derailed on Wednesday.

As news emerged of Ms Whyte’s response to the incident, people took to social media to thank the “hero”.

And Huntly councillor Gwyneth Petrie told the Press and Journal she was “truly proud” of the conductor, who is a friend and former schoolmate.

Mrs Petrie said: “Being on that train must have been horrific – it’s unimaginable – and yet Nicola overcame that, and her injuries, to ensure she could make that call for help.

“She is a hero – her actions on that day saved others, and her bravery is to be commended. I am truly proud to call her a friend, and I hope that she is recovering well.”

The 31-year-old’s proud family also paid tribute to her on social media with her sister, Gemma, writing: “My heart goes out to all crew and passengers involved in the major incident. It’s absolutely heartbreaking for all involved and it’s such a difficult time for us all.

“I am however a very proud sister of Nicola for walking three miles with injuries to get help for everyone.”

Fellow Huntly councillor Robbie Withey said: “The derailment was a tragic accident which cast a pall over the whole North East.

“Local families have lost loved ones and communities will be in mourning for weeks.

“Amongst all that loss, this act of heroism has been a source of some hope.

“Leaving the wreckage to go for help was a feat of extraordinary heroism and it has doubtless saved lives.

“Ms Whyte is a credit to Huntly and should rightly be congratulated for her efforts.”

David Philson, a ScotRail worker in Perth, added on Twitter that “not all heroes wear capes” and praised his colleague’s quick action.

Mandy Goldie wrote on Facebook: “Can’t imagine what you and others went through. Absolute respect, you’re a true hero.”

Stuart Ned Kelly added: “A complete hero and deserves an MBE, OBE or something like that.”

On Thursday, David Simpson, operations director for ScotRail, paid tribute to Ms Whyte in a radio interview.

He said: “The staff member who raised the alarm was travelling on the train, and was able to get to an adjacent signal box to raise the alarm after the incident.

“I would pay tribute to the actions of that member of staff, following what must have been an extremely bad experience being involved in the actual incident.”


Again please do feel free to report this post with any updates from official sources or other reasons that we may wish to consider posting an update. One minor request though is that if you do get in touch please provide a link (if available) to whatever the update is. It makes it much easier for us to track things down and avoid having to guess what you may be referring to!
 
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ainsworth74

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There is a minutes silence being held at 09:43:

A one-minute silence to honour the three men killed in the train derailment in Aberdeenshire will be held later.

Driver Brett McCullough, 45, conductor Donald Dinnie, 58, and passenger Christopher Stuchbury, 62, died near Stonehaven. Six others were injured.

The train derailed after hitting a landslip, following heavy rain.

Train stations are expected to fall silent at 09:43 - exactly a week after the crash was reported.

...


Again please do feel free to report this post with any updates from official sources or other reasons that we may wish to consider posting an update. One minor request though is that if you do get in touch please provide a link (if available) to whatever the update is. It makes it much easier for us to track things down and avoid having to guess what you may be referring to!
 
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