Should GWR order class 195 CAF Civities to replace its DMUs (bar the 165/166)?

[Philip Phlopp]

Have bits actually been falling off the Stadlers? That's not very Swiss. I'd more expect that from CAF

Yeah, bump stop fell off and it transpires it wasn't correctly bolted on in the first place. This following on from incorrectly wired pantographs (not the 25kV bit) which stopped them from raising/lowering correctly and interlocking as needed.

 

[py_megapixel]

Incidentally @Bletchleyite Desiros ride pretty badly too. But they ride badly in a different way to a Civity.

A Desiro sort of wobbles back and forth, which means if you're sat down they feel smooth but if you walk along them it feels like they're trying to throw you off your feet.

195s, on the other hand, simply transfer every bump and shake in the track to the passenger. Which makes them less comfortable, but also easier to walk down.

 

[tetudo boy]

I agree there. If Siemens have sorted out the painfully slow doors, and had actually bid for the relevant contracts, then I'd think they were silly for not going with Desiros.

Um, Ironing board seats!?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Um, Ironing board seats!?

You can spec the Grammer E3000 which is just as space efficient and vastly more comfortable, and indeed is found in most Desiros.

(Today's post, like most days really, has been brought to you by Grammer, the finest railway seats available )

 

[tetudo boy]

You can spec the Grammer E3000 which is just as space efficient and vastly more comfortable.

Wait, are you referring to the class 380 design?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wait, are you referring to the class 380 design?

Yes. All 350s, 450s and 444s have that seat too, as well as the 185. It's not the IC3000, but as a regional seat it's excellent (and I've done all the way from Liverpool to Bletchley in one without discomfort, well over 4 hours). You never hear any complaints about them on the WCML other than the filthy upholstery.

 

[py_megapixel]

You can spec the Grammer E3000 which is just as space efficient and vastly more comfortable, and indeed is found in most Desiros.

I would be surprised if Siemens won't let you spec whatever seat you like, as long as it fits?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be surprised if Siemens won't let you spec whatever seat you like, as long as it fits?

I'd imagine any train builder will let you do that provided it's compliant to the relevant regulations and you pay a suitable sum.

If you really want it and they don't fit it, spec the trains to be delivered empty and fit it yourself!

 

[py_megapixel]

I'd imagine any train builder will let you do that provided it's compliant to the relevant regulations and you pay a suitable sum.

If you really want it and they don't fit it, spec the trains to be delivered empty and fit it yourself!

Indeed.

The only thing I dislike about the E3000 is the beige colour of the seat backs, but I'd imagine that can be changed. (Or, again, just resprayed after-the-fact!)

 

[tetudo boy]

Yes. All 350s, 450s and 444s have that seat too, as well as the 185. It's not the IC3000, but as a regional seat it's excellent. You never hear any complaints about them on the WCML other than the filthy upholstery.

No, what I was trying to say was them having the same TRAIN design as the class 380. Sorry if my explanation was confusing.
I just thought it would fit because it was considered the future of the Desiro platform by some people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed.

The only thing I dislike about the E3000 is the beige colour of the seat backs, but I'd imagine that can be changed. (Or, again, just resprayed after-the-fact!)

Umm, they're grey? But I'm sure you can spec any colour you like or indeed spray them yourself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, what I was trying to say was them having the same TRAIN design as the class 380. Sorry if my explanation was confusing.
I just thought it would fit because it was considered the future of the Desiro platform by some people.

The present future (!) of the platform in terms of replacing 150s is the Desiro City (in which you can stick any seats you like). I don't know if a DMU or bi-mode is offered, though. I'd imagine one would be offered if a suitably large order was waved in their faces. They seem to have moved away from the tapered body of the 380 and back to a squarer one.

 

[py_megapixel]

Umm, they're grey?

D'oh!

There's something in my brain, which always confuses grey and beige. I don't entirely understand why, but that is not the first time I have made that mistake, and it won't be the last.

 

[py_megapixel]

The present future (!) of the platform in terms of replacing 150s is the Desiro City (in which you can stick any seats you like). I don't know if a DMU or bi-mode is offered, though.

Their brochure states that they offer a battery version with a range of up to 50 miles.

To me, Desiro City interiors have always looked rather plain and empty compared to stock built by other manufacturers, but as that's operator specified I'm sure it could be changed.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

GWR have absolutely nothing to do with any future electrification decision.

No - it really would be distressing to me if new diesel only trains were ordered. Madness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me, Desiro City interiors have always looked rather plain and empty compared to stock built by other manufacturers, but as that's operator specified I'm sure it could be changed.

If you look at how homely TPE have made pretty much the exact same interior (with better seats) look on the 185s (though for some reason the colour scheme looks a bit Cold War Eastern European to me, reminds me of the ex-DR compartment coaches you got in Germany in the 90s), I think that proves yes, it can.

 

[JonathanH]

No - it really would be distressing to me if new diesel only trains were ordered. Madness.

I think you can rest assured that GWR won't be ordering any brand new diesel only trains in the near future. Other threads have pointed to reworking Turbos with displaced Networker coaches with hybrid drive transmission if the current trials work.

This is a speculative thread about GWR ordering trains for fleet replacement that isn't due yet.

 

[tetudo boy]

The present future (!) of the platform in terms of replacing 150s is the Desiro City (in which you can stick any seats you like). I don't know if a DMU or bi-mode is offered, though. I'd imagine one would be offered if a suitably large order was waved in their faces. They seem to have moved away from the tapered body of the 380 and back to a squarer one.

I think that the Desiro City are better off in urban areas. A Desiro with the same design as the class 380, just bi-mode would be good, since the regular Desiro platform is for regional services.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Stadler would be mine as it would be low-floor. Other manufacturers need to offer this.

Stadler would also be my choice.

 

[Non Multi]

Stadler would also be my choice.

What has made you change your mind from your original post?

 

[swt_passenger]

No - it really would be distressing to me if new diesel only trains were ordered. Madness.

I’m referring to “Electrification” here in terms of putting up the wires. That’s not TOC responsibility.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

What has made you change your mind from your original post?

Ideally, I'd order Stadler bi modes. But I'm an open minded person, so I imagine different scenarios.

 

[RailWonderer]

Stadler bi-modes are the wrong way to go. The fuel tanks are very small on the 755s, the only way they work is with midday set swaps, and because the WAML and GEML are all electrified. The GWR has too many unelectrified portions, they would be an operational nightmare. They will need pure diesels, or pay Stadler top money to redesign the layout.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Stadler bi-modes are the wrong way to go. The fuel tanks are very small on the 755s, the only way they work is with midday set swaps, and because the WAML and GEML are all electrified. The GWR has too many unelectrified portions, they would be an operational nightmare. They will need pure diesels, or pay Stadler top money to redesign the layout.

So which ROSCO is going to be buying diesel only rolling stock which has a withdrawal date of 31 December 2039 ?

 

[py_megapixel]

Stadler bi-modes are the wrong way to go. The fuel tanks are very small on the 755s, the only way they work is with midday set swaps, and because the WAML and GEML are all electrified. The GWR has too many unelectrified portions, they would be an operational nightmare. They will need pure diesels, or pay Stadler top money to redesign the layout.

I don't think Stadler will actually charge a huge amount to design a FLIRT to be more diesel-focussed.

Don't forget that these are the people who happily built a relatively tiny fleet of vehicles to an entirely non-standard gauge for the Glasgow Subway. I would imagine that a larger fuel tank and slight rearrangements to the engine bay to match are probably nothing in comparison.

 

[popeter45]

regardless of if its stadler, CAF or Siemens i think the age of DMU's is coming to an end and and future diesel-focussed Train orders really should be DEMU with ability to convert to EMU/Bi-mode units
whats the fuel tank size planned for the Tfw 231's?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think Stadler will actually charge a huge amount to design a FLIRT to be more diesel-focussed.

Don't forget that these are the people who happily built a relatively tiny fleet of vehicles to an entirely non-standard gauge for the Glasgow Subway. I would imagine that a larger fuel tank and slight rearrangements to the engine bay to match are probably nothing in comparison.

Yep, small and custom is their bread and butter.

I'd have thought that with 2 engines in the engine module designed for 4 you'd have loads of room for extra tanks.

 

[coppercapped]

If GWR are not going to bother with electrification on the remaining lines, should they order class 195s (CAF Civity DMU) to replace the 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 156s and 158s?

Electrification is not in GWR's gift.

 

[BrutalLegend]

I wonder whether a uniform fleet would reduce the maintenance cost and increase reliability.

 

[Irascible]

I wonder whether a uniform fleet would reduce the maintenance cost and increase reliability.

Well, if you're going to be replacing everything they have ( and necessarily the WoE operation ) then it's probably going to all happen at roughly the same time given ages - but there's two service patterns, one long distance semi-fasts which covers all the regional services in the SW, the WoE line, and Bristol-south coast ( unless for some reason the Welsh govt starts providing the Cardiff trains ) which are all pretty much ideal for a 158 replacement, and the other a fairly limited urban/branch operation around Exeter & Bristol, so I don't think ideally you want a uniform set of interiors. At what point do you decide extra seats are worth more than extra doors? at least ordering everything from the same family at roughly the same stage of technology would help logistics I'd imagine, even if the insides & bodyshells are dissimilar.