UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

That doesn't matter. My elderly parents will not allow anyone to give them a hug because they are scared of this dreadful virus. This is absolutely heartbreaking. If wearing masks helps us to get the rate of infection down then in my opinion it's worth doing.

Well, really it does matter very much. Even to older people up to about 80, the risk is not that great unless they are in poor health already (although it is higher than for younger people).

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Metrolink, for example, does not permit eating or drinking on board other than plain water.

"Excuse me, Sir, I just need to have a smell of your water to see if it's lemon and lime flavoured or not."

How ludicrous. Banning alcohol - sensible. Banning everything apart from water - stupid, unenforceable.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Well, really it does matter very much. Even to older people up to about 80, the risk is not that great unless they are in poor health already (although it is higher than for younger people).

Okay well I don't agree with you.

 

[yorkie]

That doesn't matter. My elderly parents will not allow anyone to give them a hug because they are scared of this dreadful virus.This is absolutely heartbreaking.

Yes, you've said this before; unfortunately fear, and social isolation, can be far more damaging for many people than the effects of the virus.

If wearing masks helps us to get the rate of infection down then in my opinion it's worth doing.

I'm still awaiting conclusive evidence that wearing face coverings, as currently being mandated in certain settings, is effective at getting rates of infection down. Comparisons of infection rates in (say) Spain versus Sweden does not appear to support this view; Spain is having a resurgence whereas Sweden is not.

How low do you think rates of infection should be, in order to cease requiring face coverings?

Okay well I don't agree with you.

I agree with @DavidB, who correctly states that perception is that the death rate is higher than it actually is. Did you disagree with that?

Fear of catching the virus, and the sense of isolation, loss of exercise, and other issues, due to people staying at home and/or living in fear, could actually be far more harmful for many people than the effects of actually catching the virus.

 

[DB]

Okay well I don't agree with you.

Which bit? That it does matter or that even to older people in reasonable health the risk isn't that great?

If the former, you think it's OK then for large numbers of people to be vastly more fearful o this virus than they need to be?

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Yes, you've said this before; unfortunately fear, and social isolation, can be far more damaging for many people than the effects of the virus.

They're not socially isolated, they get out and about and they have plenty of visitors. However they avoid human contact like the plague.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

How low do you think rates of infection should be, in order to cease requiring face coverings?

I'll wait for the Government to tell me.

 

[MikeWM]

Yes, you've said this before; unfortunately fear, and social isolation, can be far more damaging for many people than the effects of the virus.

And there's no end to it on our current strategy! Are the vulnerable and shielding supposed to carry on doing so forever?

Whereas a herd immunity strategy would have had it pretty much over by now.

I'm still awaiting conclusive evidence that wearing face coverings, as currently being mandated in certain settings, is effective at getting rates of infection down. Comparisons of infection rates in (say) Spain versus Sweden does not appear to support this view; Spain is having a resurgence whereas Sweden is not.

See also (in no particular order) Melbourne, Argentina, Peru, California......

I suspect the difference (either way) is negligible at best. The virus will do what it will. It is self-destructive hubris to pretend otherwise.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Which bit? That it does matter or that even to older people in reasonable health the risk isn't that great?

If the former, you think it's OK then for large numbers of people to be vastly more fearful o this virus than they need to be?

Given the number of deaths in this country I'm scared of catching this virus let alone my elderly parents. So yes I think it's absolutely fine that large numbers of people are scared of this virus.

 

[adc82140]

Are you scared of flu?

That has a track record of being as deadly as this.

I'm not willing to live my life scared. Each day I wake up a day closer to death. I can't stop that. When the Man comes for me, he comes for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Excuse me, Sir, I just need to have a smell of your water to see if it's lemon and lime flavoured or not."

How ludicrous. Banning alcohol - sensible. Banning everything apart from water - stupid, unenforceable.

I've not said I agree with it, in fact I don't. What I said was that it is perfectly legal for them to do it. The basis of challenge is that it's poor customer service to have that policy. A bit like it's in my view poor customer service (or whatever you'd call it) to have staff not wearing masks where customers are required to and no other mitigation (such as screens) is in place.

A disproportionate number of people on here seem to think that they are only banned from doing the things that are illegal. This is false. You are also banned from doing things the owner of the land you are on doesn't want you to do[1], though the sanction in that case is only being asked (or forced if necessary) to leave, either temporarily or permanently.

[1] Unless that would impact upon a protected characteristic. It's possible there are disabilities requiring the frequent drinking of water or taking of medication, but, other than a diabetic hypo which I'm sure would be excused, there are none that require you to have a burger and a Coke.

 

[DB]

Given the number of deaths in this country I'm scared of catching this virus let alone my elderly parents. So yes I think it's absolutely fine that large numbers of people are scared of this virus.

I think you need to look at the actual data! The following table gives the risk of dying if infected, per age group (from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/). Might be a bit out of date, but shows the expected spread.

AGE​	DEATH RATE confirmed cases	DEATH RATE all cases
80+ years old ​	21.9%​	14.8%​
70-79 years old ​	​	8.0%​
60-69 years old ​	​	3.6%​
50-59 years old ​	​	1.3%​
40-49 years old ​	​	0.4%​
30-39 years old ​	​	0.2%​
20-29 years old ​	​	0.2%​
10-19 years old ​	​	0.2%​
0-9 years old	​	no fatalities ​

 

[MontyMinerWA]

I think you need to look at the actual data! The following table gives the risk of dying if infected, per age group (from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/). Might be a bit out of date, but shows the expected spread.

AGE​	DEATH RATE confirmed cases	DEATH RATE all cases
80+ years old ​	21.9%​	14.8%​
70-79 years old ​	​	8.0%​
60-69 years old ​	​	3.6%​
50-59 years old ​	​	1.3%​
40-49 years old ​	​	0.4%​
30-39 years old ​	​	0.2%​
20-29 years old ​	​	0.2%​
10-19 years old ​	​	0.2%​
0-9 years old	​	no fatalities ​

I'm still scared of catching it.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Are you scared of flu?

That has a track record of being as deadly as this.

I'm not willing to live my life scared. Each day I wake up a day closer to death. I can't stop that. When the Man comes for me, he comes for me.

Yes I'm scared of any virus that can kill me.

 

[Jonny]

Are you scared of flu?

That has a track record of being as deadly as this.

I'm not willing to live my life scared. Each day I wake up a day closer to death. I can't stop that. When the Man comes for me, he comes for me.

I've heard estimates of likely overall mortality range from 1 in 200 to 1 in 500 from the point of infection. It is complicated by the number of people who need a different test to one for current infection to know that they have recovered without knowing that they even were infected. That is as good as the flu without a vaccine.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I'm scared of any virus that can kill me.

'Flu kills too; in fact Covid19 appears to be less deadly than 'flu in younger people (if you research the 1918 'flu pandemic you will see extremely stark contrasts with how these viruses affect different demographics)

Even rhinoviruses (which are referred to, along with milder coronaviruses, as the "common cold") can kill.

So, what do you suggest we do about those?

 

[Richard Scott]

I'll wait for the Government to tell me.

Good luck with that one.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

'Flu kills too; in fact Covid19 appears to be less deadly than 'flu in younger people (if you research the 1918 'flu pandemic you will see extremely stark contrasts with how these viruses affect different demographics)

Even rhinoviruses (which are referred to, along with milder coronaviruses, as the "common cold") can kill.

So, what do you suggest we do about those?

I don't know Yorkie, it's not my line of work.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Good luck with that one.

Thanks for your kind words.

 

[Richard Scott]

Thanks for your kind words.

You're welcome. We're all waiting for the Government to come up with a plan and getting somewhat fed up with it.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know Yorkie, it's not my line of work.

OK, so you are saying you are scared of 'flu, but do you think we should wear face coverings to reduce the spread of 'flu? I am struggling to understand what points you are trying to make, or what your logic is.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

OK, so you are saying you are scared of 'flu, but do you think we should wear face coverings to reduce the spread of 'flu? I am struggling to understand what points you are trying to make, or what your logic is.

I'm happy to follow Government advice and obey my parents wishes.

 

[Huntergreed]

I'm happy to follow Government advice and obey my parents wishes.

This kind of mindset shows both a lack of understanding and a lack of desire to gain any understanding. I don’t believe this government is going to abuse this to create a form of dictatorship, but this kind of mindset of following without question what a government say is the kind of thing that can lead to that.

Please, everyone, don’t just take everything at face value. Do your research and question whether the right decisions really are being made or not which, in the topic of masks, I don’t believe they have.

 

[yorkie]

I'm happy to follow Government advice and obey my parents wishes.

So what's the point of having a debate if you don't have any views and don't wish to look at any evidence?

While I accept there is some evidence that face coverings can reduce the spread, the evidence is hardly conclusive, and I do not believe the current restrictions and implementation and the effect they have on society are worth experiencing in order to gain either very little benefit, or perhaps no benefit at all.

Looking at comparisons such as cases in Spain vs Sweden, there seems to be little evidence that masks make any difference of any significance.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

So what's the point of having a debate if you don't have any views and don't wish to look at any evidence?

All I initially said is that in my opinion the majority if not vast majority were happy to stick to Government advice! I've not challenging anyone on their opinions so why challenge mine?

 

[adc82140]

You don't seem to have an opinion though, other than "whatever the government's opinion is" which is rather unusual

 

[AM9]

No of course not. My doctor's surgery doesn't routinely publish stats on how thick its patients are or their appointment cancellation rate. But the observation of a doctor who interacts with 100s of patients has more weight in my book than my own opinion formed from interaction with very few people.

Of course, other health professionals (including GPs) might find that it's the thick ones that are the most arrogant about measures to protect others, maybe because they just don't get it, or because they are just selfish.
That's just another opinion here, like yours, without evidence.

 

[yorkie]

All I initially said is that in my opinion the majority if not vast majority were happy to stick to Government advice!

If the majority are happy to do this, why did the vast majority not wear face coverings until it was mandated?

I've not challenging anyone on their opinions so why challenge mine?

You have challenged @DavidB and @Huntergreed's opinions. You are entitled to do this of course, just as others are entitled to challenge yours. Why? Because it's a discussion forum

You don't seem to have an opinion though, other than "whatever the government's opinion is" which is rather unusual

Indeed; my theory is that this tactic is deployed when someone wants to disagree with someone, but doesn't want to prevent any alternative viewpoint, in the belief that they can demonstrate someone else is 'wrong' without being 'wrong' themselves

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'll wait for the Government to tell me.

Do you believe everything the Government tells you?

Do you trust everything the Government tells you?

 

[yorkie]

Of course, other health professionals (including GPs) might find that it's the thick ones that are the most arrogant about measures to protect others, maybe because they just don't get it, or because they are just selfish.
That's just another opinion here, like yours, without evidence.

Talking of people being 'selfish', take a look at the tweets I quoted in this post, regarding people covered by exemptions, and tell me who is being selfish in those interactions?

I'd argue that the height of selfishness is to try to exclude people with disabilities from society (or by making them feel so uncomfortable that they feel excluded), which is what some pro-mask activists appear to be doing.