UK face coverings discussion

[adc82140]

But even if they do allow exemptions, how are those kids going to feel? It's highly likely to make them a target for bullying too.

Doubt it. The kids with asthma all carry inhalers too, and may be excused certain sports. Certainly when I was at school this wasn't a cause for bullying. Any school where this does happen has deep seated problems.

 

[Scrotnig]

But even if they do allow exemptions, how are those kids going to feel? It's highly likely to make them a target for bullying too.

Well at least it'll prepare them for what the adult world is now like I suppose.

 

[Scrotnig]

As a controlled environment the school will be able to manage exemptions appropriately, e.g. by issuing sunflower lanyards.

AKA t-shirts with 'UNCLEAN' written on them....

 

[DB]

Doubt it. The kids with asthma all carry inhalers too, and may be excused certain sports. Certainly when I was at school this wasn't a cause for bullying. Any school where this does happen has deep seated problems.

That's nowhere near as obvious as not wearing a mask when everyone else is, though.

 

[Richard Scott]

I would be removing my child from that school and asking the school governors to intervene. They have no basis in law to insist on this. What sort of poor leadership does that show? Same for the infant school on the news that had covered the place in hazard tape and made it look like a crime scene, rather than just removing articles that were not safe to be there.

It's utterly ridiculous. You need to see kids faces as gives an idea of understanding. What is the risk without masks? In my opinion, I know some will disagree, no greater. Again it's this over the top reaction to this virus and seen to be doing something to 'keep you safe'. Fed up with that phrase already. Where was the huge jump in cases when kids returned to school June/July without masks and, to be honest, not really getting the whole social distance thing? Oh that's right it didn't happen.

 

[trebor79]

But even if they do allow exemptions, how are those kids going to feel? It's highly likely to make them a target for bullying too.

The kids won't comply after a few days anyway. It won't take long for teachers to pushback to the management either

As a controlled environment the school will be able to manage exemptions appropriately, e.g. by issuing sunflower lanyards.

Yeah, right. That's not going to make them a target for ridicule and bullying at all is it? This is school children, not a bunch of middle aged people in an office.

 

[jtuk]

As if the NHS doesn't have enough to do at the moment.

True, but by all accounts they've sitting around doing nothing for months now. Not that Bletchley's idea isn't ridiculous, I do wonder if it's just a parody account at this stage

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, but by all accounts they've sitting around doing nothing for months now. Not that Bletchley's idea isn't ridiculous, I do wonder if it's just a parody account at this stage

All the things people call "ridiculous" that I post are being done by some country, somewhere.

 

[Richard Scott]

All the things people call "ridiculous" that I post are being done by some country, somewhere.

Those things often done just to be seen to be doing something, no really good reasons for them.

 

[DB]

All the things people call "ridiculous" that I post are being done by some country, somewhere.

An authoritarian one, probably - you do seem very keen on strict control of what people are allowed to do. Ever thought of moving to China?

 

[adc82140]

True, but by all accounts they've sitting around doing nothing for months now. Not that Bletchley's idea isn't ridiculous, I do wonder if it's just a parody account at this stage

As a front line NHS worker I'd like to take issue with that. But I can't. Because it's true, at least it was back in April/May. We're utterly crazily busy now with catchup, but at one point unless you were working on a Covid ward, you really were sitting around doing bog all. I felt for the staff dealing with the Covid patients having to watch the rest of us sat browsing the Internet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An authoritarian one, probably - you do seem very keen on strict control of what people are allowed to do. Ever thought of moving to China?

I wouldn't go as far as China, but this is a unique situation that does require rather unique, and yes, authoritarian, measures.

 

[Richard Scott]

I wouldn't go as far as China, but this is a unique situation that does require rather unique, and yes, authoritarian, measures.

No it doesn't.

 

[trebor79]

True, but by all accounts they've [NHS] sitting around doing nothing for months now.

Digression, but this is true. We have friends, one is a doctor in a hospital and one works for a medical scanning company. The doctor reports zero COVID patients in the hospital for weeks now, but next to no routine treatments happening.
The other has been furloughed from the start because the NHS stopped sending people for scans. The company has offered several times to do work at cost to help catch up on diagnosis etc. Each time they get a "Oh yes, that would be wonderful" type response, but nothing happens.
It's like we've slipped into a third world healthcare system.

 

[westv]

I know the money raised for the ones they sell goes to a good cause but I wish LNER would wind back a bit on their mask promotion on twitter.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Sturgeon announcing today in her daily briefing that as of tomorrow, in Scotland, face coverings must be worn in museums, libraries and places of worship. She has also said that face visors must be accompanied by a different type of face covering, as a visor does not provide sufficient protection.

 

[DB]

Sturgeon announcing today in her daily briefing that as of tomorrow, in Scotland, face coverings must be worn in museums, libraries and places of worship. She has also said that face visors must be accompanied by a different type of face covering, as a visor does not provide sufficient protection.

She's going all out to make things thoroughly unpleasant for people in Scotland, isn't she!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile the BBC are reporting that ONS thinks cases are levelling off in England:

Virus cases 'may be levelling off' in England, figures suggest

After a low in cases at the end of June, the ONS estimated infections had been rising slightly in July.

www.bbc.co.uk

Could this be the effect of masks? Not much else has changed.

Sturgeon announcing today in her daily briefing that as of tomorrow, in Scotland, face coverings must be worn in museums, libraries and places of worship. She has also said that face visors must be accompanied by a different type of face covering, as a visor does not provide sufficient protection.

Much easier to just say "all indoor locations which would be covered by the smoking ban except <exemptions> plus when needed to eat, drink or take medication". Dead easy to understand then. Asians have already thought of this, and over there restaurants provide you with an envelope to place your mask in while having your meal.

 

[Richard Scott]

Meanwhile the BBC are reporting that ONS thinks cases are levelling off in England:

Virus cases 'may be levelling off' in England, figures suggest

After a low in cases at the end of June, the ONS estimated infections had been rising slightly in July.

www.bbc.co.uk

Could this be the effect of masks? Not much else has changed.

It's been levelling off for ages, not due to masks, more likely due to lower viral loadings.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Meanwhile the BBC are reporting that ONS thinks cases are levelling off in England:

Virus cases 'may be levelling off' in England, figures suggest

After a low in cases at the end of June, the ONS estimated infections had been rising slightly in July.

www.bbc.co.uk

Could this be the effect of masks? Not much else has changed.

Perhaps, but probably more likely because local restrictions have been imposed in areas where there was quite a resurgence in case numbers.

 

[greyman42]

I'm very concerned about poor compliance by primarily groups of lads in their 20s which are very likely to be carriers.

What makes you think that they are very likely to be carriers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What makes you think that they are very likely to be carriers?

Because of the poor compliance to social distancing rules.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Because of the poor compliance to social distancing rules.

They might be a bit more likely to be carriers. But very likely?

There are on the order of 50,000 people with the virus in the UK (the last estimate I saw was 0.07%, and this figure is likely to have increased very slightly).

There are 3.8 million men in their twenties in England and Wales. So even if they were the only group who were infected (which we know isn't the case), only 1.3% could be infected. That is an absolute upper bound - the true figure will be a tenth of that or even less, and far less outside of Leicester, Bradford, and the other known trouble spots. That doesn't seem like "very likely" to me.

 

[trainophile]

I thought yesterday (while pondering that I was glad to be travelling then and not today) that this wearing of face coverings on public transport originally came out of London, where perhaps the average commute is about half an hour to an hour. The concept of wearing a mask in a hot airless train for three or four hours was probably not even vaguely in the minds of those who made the original decree. With shops, museums, etc., you largely have control over how long you can tolerate being in there without removal of mask or going outside for fresh air, but unless you're prepared to break your train journey down into bite sized chunks, buying several different tickets in order to allow egress from the stations in between legs, you're really not going to have a very pleasant journey.

 

[MikeWM]

Good interview with the excellent Dr John Lee, a rare voice of sanity over the last few months. Here's the relevant mask bit, but the whole thing is worth reading.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/07/our-government-should-not-be-copying-totalitarian-states/

The science on masks is very weak. The claim is that you might spread Covid-19 without knowing, if you have it asymptomatically. The virus is allegedly stuck to big droplets which the masks catch, and it is therefore assumed that masks can stop the virus spreading.

Firstly, asymptomatic Covid-19 spreading around is good because it reduces the virulence of the virus. Secondly, the idea that masks stop the spread is not only totally unproven, but also facile. It is a failure of imagination. When a droplet hits a mask, it will dry out within seconds or, at most, minutes. If there is any substance to the droplet other than water, it will turn into a dust particle. Unless you superglue the mask to your face, there will be a constant rain of dust particles coming out from all directions around your mask as you breathe. They will be breathed in by others and the virus will do what it does.

...

The bottom line is that our government should not be in the business of copying totalitarian states and pushing compulsion on people without having jolly good evidence on which to base it. That is the fundamental philosophical divide about this.

 

[trebor79]

Good interview with the excellent Dr John Lee, a rare voice of sanity over the last few months. Here's the relevant mask bit, but the whole thing is worth reading.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/07/our-government-should-not-be-copying-totalitarian-states/

It strikes me that regular sanitation of surfaces where droplets might fall would be more effective and less unpleasant than forcing us all to wear stupid masks.

 

[GodAtum]

I'm proudly wearing my Southern mask from https://masquette.square.site/shop/uk-rail-/4

 

[bramling]

I thought yesterday (while pondering that I was glad to be travelling then and not today) that this wearing of face coverings on public transport originally came out of London, where perhaps the average commute is about half an hour to an hour. The concept of wearing a mask in a hot airless train for three or four hours was probably not even vaguely in the minds of those who made the original decree. With shops, museums, etc., you largely have control over how long you can tolerate being in there without removal of mask or going outside for fresh air, but unless you're prepared to break your train journey down into bite sized chunks, buying several different tickets in order to allow egress from the stations in between legs, you're really not going to have a very pleasant journey.

I think you may well be on to something regarding London. Sadiq Khan has been a supporter of masks for some while, and he was certainly vociferous in lobbying the government.

Much as Boris and company utterly despise him, they probably didn’t want to take the risk of finding themselves backed into a corner.

 

[43066]

You keep banging on about the blue badge scheme. That is completely different - you need one in order to park in certain places; that is all. It does not impose an obligation on anyone to do something in all cases unless they can 'prove' why they aren't.

I’ve posted this before but it’s worth repeating.

It’s important to remember they there is no obligation on anybody to prove that an exemption applies, according to the government’s own guidance.

Furthermore the guidance also makes clear that “exemption cards” are a matter of personal choice and not a legal requirement.

[Withdrawn] [Withdrawn] Face coverings: when to wear one, exemptions and what makes a good one

www.gov.uk

Exemption Cards

Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering.

Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering.This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

This is a personal choice and is not necessary in law.

If challenged by someone in authority the correct approach is simply to state that an exemption applies. There’s no need to show evidence of this, and there’s no need to explain what that exemption might be. This has been my experience over the last few days travelling quite extensively and using various modes of transport, with no problems at all.

I would urge any forum members who are unable to wear face coverings to get out and about, as we are all now encouraged to do, keeping the above in mind.

 

[Yew]

Meanwhile the BBC are reporting that ONS thinks cases are levelling off in England:

Virus cases 'may be levelling off' in England, figures suggest

After a low in cases at the end of June, the ONS estimated infections had been rising slightly in July.

www.bbc.co.uk

Could this be the effect of masks? Not much else has changed.

More likely they actually know a thing about statistics, and how doing more/targeted tests means that you find more cases..