Plans to reinstate Welsh railway line scrapped as part of Beeching Report

[Tumbleweed]

I'm not from this part of Wales, is this pie in the sky or do-able?

Quote

The track opened in 1858 the Vale of Clwyd line between Rhyl, St Asaph and Denbigh with Corwen. It was closed to passengers in 1962 and was used for freight traffic until 1965 when it was finally shut down.

Plans to reinstate Welsh railway line scrapped as part of Beeching Report

An inland rail line scrapped 55 years ago as part of the infamous Beeching Report could be reinstated. Officers will meet with consultants later this month to discuss a feasibility study into reopening the Denbigh to Corwen line and linking it with Rhyl, according to the Conwy and Denbighshire...

nation.cymru

 

[Polarbear]

I suspect this is more wishful thinking than anything else. Most of the old formation has long since been demolished & it would cost a fortune to re-instate it.

Then there's the question of viability. Rhyl - Denbigh may just be viable, given that the bus route between the two still seems to do a reasonable trade. Beyond Denbigh though, I can't see any reason for a railway at all. The population is small to non-existent & Corwen is a very small town which in itself won't generate much traffic.

 

[The Planner]

You wonder sometimes if they have even briefly looked at GoogleMaps just to establish what is in the way, this one looks a very tall order! Just looking at Trefnant, Tweedmill shopping outlet and Rhuddlan, you are going to need a lot of new route I would suspect.

 

[Llandudno]

Who dreams up this twaddle!

Best we can hope is Bangor to Caernarfon in 20 years time!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Clwyd system, which included Saltney-Mold-Denbigh as well as Rhyl-Denbigh-Ruthin-Corwen was closed to passengers before Beeching (1962).
In fact the Rhyl-Denbigh section lost its passenger service in 1955, but the network was retained for freight until 1965, although Ruthin-Corwen closed earlier.
Around 1960 BR ran summer "land cruise" trains round north Wales, Rhyl-Corwen-Barmouth-Porthmadog-Caernarfon-Bangor-Rhyl.
Penyffordd-Mold-Rhydymywyn was retained for a few years for chemical/quarry traffic, accessed from the Wrexham-Bidston line, and closed about 1970.

Ruthin (which named one of its streets Beeching Close in protest, though he wasn't responsible) has redeveloped the rail route through the town.
The station site is now a craft centre, with an old railway crane* in the car park to signify its heritage.
The goods yard area is now the town's industrial estate.
There was the chance to keep the Vale of Clwyd trackbed as a cycling route but Denbighshire CC sadly decided against, so the local farmers have largely repossessed it.
The northern approach to Denbigh is now a major roundabout, and A55 construction has obliterated the route near St Asaph.
In some places the railway alignment was used to widen the road.

I can't see the business case myself, certainly not from Rhyl. A route from Chester might stand a better chance.
The main line has a hard enough time generating enough trade to be economic, and branches to small towns stand no chance.
It's about the same prospect as reopening Hereford-Hay on Wye-Brecon or the closed sections of the Cambrian system.
But probably better than Carmarthen-Aberystwyth!

* embossed "Richard Kitchin, Warrington" - one of my ancestors!

 

[A0]

You wonder sometimes if they have even briefly looked at GoogleMaps just to establish what is in the way, this one looks a very tall order! Just looking at Trefnant, Tweedmill shopping outlet and Rhuddlan, you are going to need a lot of new route I would suspect.

Why would they do anything as sensible as looking at Google Maps ?

Local authorities would far rather waste some public money on a pointless "feasibility study" than just be honest up front and say it's not viable. Add in the fact it means they can try to tap central govt up for some money.

 

[071]

Local authorities would far rather waste some public money on a pointless "feasibility study" than just be honest up front and say it's not viable.

That's because some busybody will ask, in writing to their Councillor and the local MP, "how do they know it's not viable if they haven't done a feasibility study?" and if they don't get the answer they want, will then make a complaint, just to be difficult.

 

[PR1Berske]

Just looking at Rhuddlan, the trackbed appears to have been swallowed up by the somewhat significantly sized A525 roundabout. I'm not sure the feasibility study would be worth the cost.

Embedded image shows a screenshot of Google Maps satellite view of the approximate site of the railway trackbed into Rhuddlan.

 

[daodao]

Then there's the question of viability. Rhyl - Denbigh may just be viable, given that the bus route between the two still seems to do a reasonable trade.

The Rhyl-Denbigh bus route runs via Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, Bodelwyddan, one of 3 main hospitals for Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr, which is a significant traffic generator and somewhat distant from the old Rhyl-Denbigh railway line.

 

[Trackman]

Why would they do anything as sensible as looking at Google Maps ?

Local authorities would far rather waste some public money on a pointless "feasibility study" than just be honest up front and say it's not viable. Add in the fact it means they can try to tap central govt up for some money.

It’s happening up and down the country too.
it does make me chuckle.
Reading the article the councillors are using a consultancy firm in London, so looks like local council tax payers money being wasted too.

 

[A0]

It’s happening up and down the country too.
it does make me chuckle.
Reading the article the councillors are using a consultancy firm in London, so looks like local council tax payers money being wasted too.

It frustrates the hell out of me, because you can safely assume each of those "feasibility" studies will be costing at least £ 20k, which will be stating the bloody obvious - which is there's no viable way to reinstate this any time this side of Hades freezing over. And the only people who have benefited are the consultants, who will again have demonstrated the old axiom that a consultant is "somebody who borrows your watch to tell you the time".

 

[yoyothehobo]

It frustrates the hell out of me, because you can safely assume each of those "feasibility" studies will be costing at least £ 20k, which will be stating the bloody obvious - which is there's no viable way to reinstate this any time this side of Hades freezing over. And the only people who have benefited are the consultants, who will again have demonstrated the old axiom that a consultant is "somebody who borrows your watch to tell you the time".

I would say it is someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time when you are in denial of what time it is!

 

[Trackman]

It frustrates the hell out of me, because you can safely assume each of those "feasibility" studies will be costing at least £ 20k, which will be stating the bloody obvious - which is there's no viable way to reinstate this any time this side of Hades freezing over. And the only people who have benefited are the consultants, who will again have demonstrated the old axiom that a consultant is "somebody who borrows your watch to tell you the time".

and it says that these particular consultants are also working with other councils to re-open lines. They must be lapping it up!
I wonder how they keep a straight face in these meetings?

 

[A0]

and it says that these particular consultants are also working with other councils to re-open lines. They must be lapping it up!
I wonder how they keep a straight face in these meetings?

There really needs to be something which councils look at before picking up the phone to the consultants - something like Altnabreac's criteria even as a starter for 10 - this one fails on these:

• Population of 10,000+ - No, Denbigh's the biggest place and that's sub 10k, Corwen and Ruthin are smaller still.
• 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre. - Yes - Chester is less than an hour away.
• Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed - No - already shown to have been built over.
• Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required - No, would need terminal capacity as there aren't Rhyl terminators on the North Wales line.
• Regeneration Potential of a deprived area - Whether it's a "deprived" area is open to debate, what isn't open to debate is there are more sheep than people living there so unless ruminants are about to become significant users of such a line, the demand will be small going on miniscule.

 

[Polarbear]

The Rhyl-Denbigh bus route runs via Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, Bodelwyddan, one of 3 main hospitals for Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr, which is a significant traffic generator and somewhat distant from the old Rhyl-Denbigh railway line.

Yes, very true. Makes any case for reinstating the railway even more fanciful. Having seen the photos above of just how much of the formation has been obliterated, this is a non-starter.

 

[furnessvale]

There really needs to be something which councils look at before picking up the phone to the consultants - something like Altnabreac's criteria even as a starter for 10 - this one fails on these:
<SNIP>

Altnabreac's criteria are a starting point but not the be all and end all, and other factors MAY be applicable to some proposals.

For example, is the proposal a branch line or a through route? Is there a demonstrable (not pie in they sky) freight potential?

 

[A0]

Altnabreac's criteria are a starting point but not the be all and end all, and other factors MAY be applicable to some proposals.

For example, is the proposal a branch line or a through route? Is there a demonstrable (not pie in they sky) freight potential?

I don't disagree - though arguably freight is going to be more expensive and need a very clear demand. Railfreight by its very nature is going to mean bulk movements - so aggregates, minerals or containers. Those trains are going to be heavy so the infrastructure demands are likely to be more expensive than a passenger railway designed for a DMU.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't disagree - though arguably freight is going to be more expensive and need a very clear demand. Railfreight by its very nature is going to mean bulk movements - so aggregates, minerals or containers. Those trains are going to be heavy so the infrastructure demands are likely to be more expensive than a passenger railway designed for a DMU.

Hence my wording "demonstrable (not pie in the sky)"

 

[HSTEd]

I could write up a business case for a large nuclear power station in the head of the Vale.

Complete with a huge dam to make a lake for cooling water and huge cooling towers.

That would get you a railfreight business case, but it would probably mean flooding Llandrillo.

But beyond that I've got no idea.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

That would get you a railfreight business case, but it would probably mean flooding Llandrillo.

Not for the first time!

 

[furnessvale]

I could write up a business case for a large nuclear power station in the head of the Vale.

Complete with a huge dam to make a lake for cooling water and huge cooling towers.

That would get you a railfreight business case, but it would probably mean flooding Llandrillo.

But beyond that I've got no idea.

Perhaps you could, but I am talking Altnabreac's criteria in principle, not this specific proposal which would appear to have no such railfreight potential.

 

[S&CLER]

Perhaps you could, but I am talking Altnabreac's criteria in principle, not this specific proposal which would appear to have no such railfreight potential.

Bill Rear's Foxline book on the route (which I'd just been reading before I saw this thread) makes it very clear that the freight was largely agricultural stuff of the sort that had gone over to road haulage by the early 1960s, plus some minerals from a number of small quarries, most of which have since closed, I believe. There was a little extra traffic from temporary depots in use during the war. Nothing since the 1960s suggests that there is any new untapped freight potential.

 

[furnessvale]

Bill Rear's Foxline book on the route (which I'd just been reading before I saw this thread) makes it very clear that the freight was largely agricultural stuff of the sort that had gone over to road haulage by the early 1960s, plus some minerals from a number of small quarries, most of which have since closed, I believe. There was a little extra traffic from temporary depots in use during the war. Nothing since the 1960s suggests that there is any new untapped freight potential.

Thanks for confirming what I said.

 

[Along the bay]

The Clwyd system, which included Saltney-Mold-Denbigh as well as Rhyl-Denbigh-Ruthin-Corwen was closed to passengers before Beeching (1962).
In fact the Rhyl-Denbigh section lost its passenger service in 1955, but the network was retained for freight until 1965, although Ruthin-Corwen closed earlier.
Around 1960 BR ran summer "land cruise" trains round north Wales, Rhyl-Corwen-Barmouth-Porthmadog-Caernarfon-Bangor-Rhyl.
Penyffordd-Mold-Rhydymywyn was retained for a few years for chemical/quarry traffic, accessed from the Wrexham-Bidston line, and closed about 1970.

Ruthin (which named one of its streets Beeching Close in protest, though he wasn't responsible) has redeveloped the rail route through the town.
The station site is now a craft centre, with an old railway crane* in the car park to signify its heritage.
The goods yard area is now the town's industrial estate.
There was the chance to keep the Vale of Clwyd trackbed as a cycling route but Denbighshire CC sadly decided against, so the local farmers have largely repossessed it.
The northern approach to Denbigh is now a major roundabout, and A55 construction has obliterated the route near St Asaph.
In some places the railway alignment was used to widen the road.

I can't see the business case myself, certainly not from Rhyl. A route from Chester might stand a better chance.
The main line has a hard enough time generating enough trade to be economic, and branches to small towns stand no chance.
It's about the same prospect as reopening Hereford-Hay on Wye-Brecon or the closed sections of the Cambrian system.
But probably better than Carmarthen-Aberystwyth!

* embossed "Richard Kitchin, Warrington" - one of my ancestors!

1984 for the end of Mold freight I believe.

 

[Polarbear]

1984 for the end of Mold freight I believe.

That sounds about right. The freight was pipes to Rhydymwyn as I recall.

 

[Along the bay]

Arriva Wales route 51- which follows the route of the railway with the exception of the Hospital- seems busy usually, its not unknown to see sapphire Enviro 400's assigned to the route, but it only goes as far as Denbigh (unless it still goes to Wrexham bus station ?) and Corwern is small.
It would be useful for stock exchanges with the Llangollen railway though.

 

[furnessvale]

Arriva Wales route 51- which follows the route of the railway with the exception of the Hospital- seems busy usually, its not unknown to see sapphire Enviro 400's assigned to the route, but it only goes as far as Denbigh (unless it still goes to Wrexham bus station ?) and Corwern is small.
It would be useful for stock exchanges with the Llangollen railway though.

Obviously tongue in cheek! As reasons to reopen a line that falls quite a distance below the "useful diversionary route" reason!

 

[Along the bay]

Obviously tongue in cheek! As reasons to reopen a line that falls quite a distance below the "useful diversionary route" reason!

Of course

 

[topydre]

The northern part could be handy (though probably not far up the priority list). The southern part to Corwen (closed to passengers in 1953 IIRC) only makes sense as part of a network and therefore reopening from Rhyl all the way to Corwen without reinstating Barmouth - Ruabon wouldn't make much sense (other than giving a national rail connection to the Llangollen Railway! Which could probably be achieved more easily by extending LlR to Ruabon)

 

[daodao]

The northern part could be handy (though probably not far up the priority list). The southern part to Corwen (closed to passengers in 1953 IIRC) only makes sense as part of a network and therefore reopening from Rhyl all the way to Corwen without reinstating Barmouth - Ruabon wouldn't make much sense (other than giving a national rail connection to the Llangollen Railway! Which could probably be achieved more easily by extending LlR to Ruabon)

It is easier to make a case for re-opening a railway line when there is a clear single main traffic flow. However, the key travel destinations from the towns and villages in Dyffryn Clwyd are split:

• north to Denbigh, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd at Bodelwyddan (not served by the former rail line), and Rhyl
• east across/around the Clwydian Hills to Chester and Wrexham, which provided sufficient of an obstacle that there never was a direct line to Wrexham or from Ruthin to Mold past Moel Famau.

Combined with the relatively low population density, and the obliteration of much of the previous trackbed, this re-opening is unrealistic. If there are going to be any rail re-openings in north-east Wales, Chester-Mold and Ruabon-Llangollen might be more plausible.