GNERman
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What Makes You Proud to be British?
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thefab444
Established Member
GNERman said:
People that can't use IMG tags?
GNERman
Established Member
It didn't like Flickr images...
90019
Established Member
Ivo
Established Member
Look I'm not here to get into a political argument, I'm just saying that I think it is wrong that in such a powerful country, we are forgetting about the old people inside our shores, it's not copied from the Daily Mail, I avoid newspapers after the Max Mosely nazi-Spanking Sex scandal, At best i read the Indepeandant, but believe me, there are a lot more deeper secrets than appear in the EU
A fair point. The media do not make me proud to be British/English/European. I avoid the News of the World like the plague after that Mosley story. And still my family ask if I want to read it when I'm around them! They "keep forgetting" that I don't read it. What right did they have to intervene in Mosley's private life? Would it have been an issue if not for his family heritage? If it had been Lewis Hamilton, i.e. the other end of the F1 spectrum, they would have passed it off as Page 3 material (specifically, the body of the girl he was with; not suggesting Lewis would get involved in such acts of course!). I won't even read The Sun because of it alone (being the weekday/Saturday sister paper), but being an Everton fan I shouldn't considering the Hillsborough disaster (15 days into my life) anyway.
Actually, if I had my dictatorial way, tabloids would be kicked out of Britain faster than Arriva would be. And that, coming from me, is saying something.
GNERman
Established Member
Really?
That seems to have worked...
Hmm, i'm useless... Thanks though...
thefab444
Established Member
I disagree. Taking a completely unfair and somewhat outdated viewpoint, we need something to keep "the masses" entertained, and occasionally to whip them up into public angry. As long as nobody actually takes the stuff they print seriously, it's not a problem.
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So where are the facts or reference material to support your claims of starving, freezing pensions en masse? Whilst it may be tough living on the state pension alone, if we promoted a culture of saving rather than incessant spending, people might have some savings to rely upon as well. This would, however, have a detremental effect on the consumer economy.
I avoid newspapers after the Max Mosely nazi-Spanking Sex scandal, At best i read the Indepeandant, but believe me, there are a lot more deeper secrets than appear in the EU
Firstly, the Independant has gone down hill in recent years, despite the "refresh" they launched a few months ago. Not sure what relevance the Max Mosley saga has but if it means you don't read the tabloids then that's a good thing.
And I don't really believe you about deeper secrets in the EU. It's not some sinister organisation set up purely for the purpose of "taking over Britain". Yes, it has problems, and yes it could be run a lot better, but a lot of the anti-EU sentiment is caused by people actually believing in what the tabloid newspapers print, and I believe that fundamentally the EU is a good thing for Britain. Maybe we should more time actively campaigning for reform within the EU, than frothing over "ZOMG TEH BRUSSELS ARE TAKIN OVA!"
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Pensioners in the UK have, on average, a disproportionately high amount of wealth, compared with anyone, of any age, in most countries in the world. Life expectancy is also very high, and this costs a lot of money - who should pay? If someone earns money from, say, 40 years working, should they get a generous (in relative terms) pension for another 30 years, plus care costs, and who is going to pay for that?
TrainBrain185
Member
Indeed it does. Thankyou.
I agree. The model for the European Union is not ideal, but I don't think there is one that would be! I studied Politics at University, and did modules on the EU, the British system of government, and the US Constitution. Believe me, each of these has its advanatges and disadvantages, but none is perfect by any means!
The UK tabloid press are pathetic. The ignore facts that they don't like, and this alone stifles a proper debate on the subject. When they complain that none of the main parties want to leave the EU, they should realise that this is because the politicians have bothered to llok at the facts and the system in depth, and not just rely on the rants and the headlines.
If I were being cynical, I would suggest that politicians are afraid of offending EU opinion because they are looking for cushey jobs in Brussels. However, I think it is more likely that they are prioritising business interests over democratic freedoms, because money is their main concern. The Press being shallow, trivial and strident does not help people to hold an informed debate on the subject. If they did, I have a feeling that opposition to the EU might move into the mainstream.
The main problem the EU suffers from is the lack of a democratic mandate at the highest level. With such a mandate, there would be no argument that it would be anything other than a nation state, but it would be a nation state accountable to its people. I'm not entirely clear how Barroso came to be President of the Commission, but I do know that I did not have a vote in it. The system we currently have is very close to the Soviet Union, both in structure and in the methods of appointment to high office. It's not an exact parallel, but close enough to be worrying. It desperately needs reform, before someone realises just how powerful one person could become by manipulating it the right way.
As I see it, there are two options.
Reduce central powers by reforming the Treaty of Maastricht (is that the right one?) so that EU Directives have to be ratified by national parliaments before they come into force in that country. This preserves national independence and maintains the democratic process, but weakens the EU to little more than a mini UN.
OR
Declare that the EU is a nation state, replace the Council of Europe with an elected Senate, transform the Commission into a Cabinet, and create a new office of President of Europe elected through popular vote. This creates a democratic state, but destroys national independence.
I'm open to suggestions for a third option.
It seems that the EU is rather stuck. It wants, and needs, to be more than a political alliance, but it cannot become a nation state without the agreement and of the national governments and the consent of those of who are governed.
It is important that there is a proper, reasoned debate so that alternative views cna be put forward and considered. It may even be possible to reach a consensus on whether to move ahead with a federal mdoel not unlike the US, adopt the sort of ideas you have proposed, or abandon the whole venture and revert back to the idea of a loose trading block.
One thing I am reasonably sure about is that however it works in practice, and whatever the constitution, European countries willg ain mor eby co-operating with each other than by each doing their own thing.
It is important that there is a proper, reasoned debate so that alternative views cna be put forward and considered. It may even be possible to reach a consensus on whether to move ahead with a federal mdoel not unlike the US, adopt the sort of ideas you have proposed, or abandon the whole venture and revert back to the idea of a loose trading block.
One thing I am reasonably sure about is that however it works in practice, and whatever the constitution, European countries willg ain mor eby co-operating with each other than by each doing their own thing.
This. Just this. I don't consider myself "British" for the simple fact that Britain is not a country - it's a union. My country is Scotland.
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This as well! Nothing angers me more than hearing "British" on TV when they infact mean "English". Just recently, an American heard that I was from the UK, and the preferred to me as an "Englishman". A little video of Scotland The Brave taught him.
Plus people using "Britain" and "United Kingdom" interchangeably too. That is so not right.
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And there's the rub. The last chance the people of Britain had to give their consent to further European integration was many years before I was born. If there was another referendum, and the choice was between a loose trading block and a federal government, I would vote for the former, but if the result went the way of the latter, would shut up and accept it. However, I am sure that I am not the only person who feels as though he is being sold down the river. It's also worth remembering that every state in the EU is being treated the same way, although some reap more benefit than others.
I'm the exact opposite. I don't believe another country (England) should decide what happens to us. All the power comes from London, which I don't think is right at all. The decisions which effect our country should come from our Capital - Edinburgh, or at the very least, Glasgow (which IMO should be the capital anyway).
The people of Northumberland or Cornwall might well say something similar. There's also an old French epithet, 'Blessed by God, cursed with Paris.'
Part of the reason that quite a few people feel they are being sold down the river is that they feel they haven't had a say, and what's more, due to the deficiencies in the UK press, don't have sufficient information to make a proper judgment.
To me, it looks like a case of 'we know what is best for Europe, so we will make these changes, but we cannot simply maek Europe a nation state because there will be revoultion' (saying it in a French accent may help!!).
In reality, the President of the EU is elected (I use the term loosely) by the national governments of the EU. A weakness in this country, and possibly others, I don't have enoguh ingo to comment, is that a lot of people in the UK are far more interested in Britian's Got Talent, Strictly and the X Factor than they are in politics in general, do not feel involved in the EU political process, or simply believe what they read in The Sun, so there is not great pressure for a proper, informed debate. We therefore also often have no idea when a President is being elected, except for last time when there was a great dela of speculation that Blair would be elected!
Thus does the status quo continue. Those of us who are interested cannot get sufficient support to force our government to bring these issues out and discuss them properly!
thefab444
Established Member
The difficulty is that a large amount of the population is against the EU for no real reason in particular other than that's what they've been told to think. That's why, were I in government, I would not offer any kind of referendum on EU membership, treaties and the like, because it will be shot down by the electorate not because it is a bad idea, but because of the blind dislike of the EU.
Personally I'm skeptical about referenda in general, as Greenback said, the vast majority of the population are interested in other things and won't bother to vote, I mean a third of them can't even be bothered to vote in the General Election! In addition, how many people do you think do a comprehensive review of the options and then chose the one that they think will best meet their long term needs? Or will they just vote to "snub" the government, or make a much larger political point. The whole point of a representative democracy is that we elect people to be our political experts and to study these things in depth. However, the current Parliament system e.g. strong party whips, makes actual representation in some cases impossible.
It'll be interesting to see the result and turnout of the forthcoming AV referendum (assuming the bill makes it through the Commons).
Anyway, I could rant all night about this, but by the end there'd be no one left alive on the forum!
Personally I'm skeptical about referenda in general, as Greenback said, the vast majority of the population are interested in other things and won't bother to vote, I mean a third of them can't even be bothered to vote in the General Election! In addition, how many people do you think do a comprehensive review of the options and then chose the one that they think will best meet their long term needs? Or will they just vote to "snub" the government, or make a much larger political point. The whole point of a representative democracy is that we elect people to be our political experts and to study these things in depth. However, the current Parliament system e.g. strong party whips, makes actual representation in some cases impossible.
It'll be interesting to see the result and turnout of the forthcoming AV referendum (assuming the bill makes it through the Commons).
Anyway, I could rant all night about this, but by the end there'd be no one left alive on the forum!
I hope you're not thinking that's what the UK is...
Mintona
Established Member
I hate it when people refer to all soldiers as "heroes". They're getting paid to do a job! It's a dangerous job but so is tightrope walking and those people aren't known as "heroes" so why should soldiers be?!
Well the official name of the country we all live in is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So apart from missing out Northern Ireland they're spot on with thinking that Great Britain is the UK.
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One reason might be that soldiers volunteer to put their lives on the line in a way that tightrope walkers don't.
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the sniper
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Apart from chopping off the good people of Northern Ireland, I don't understand your issue. As Ainsworth74 says, it's our country's official name.
Great Britain is part of the UK just like England is part of Great Britain.
It's like saying France is Europe, whereas it's actually only part of Europe.
Indeed it is and as I said they were right apart from missing off Northern Ireland which both myself and the sniper have now both said.
So as the sniper said, what is your issue?
I was rather hoping that this thread was going the be a celebration of invention, public service and fair play.
Of course ask the average football shirt wearing lager fuelled yob, who loves wrapping themselves in a flag shouting 'ingerland', just want made this country great you will probably get some answer about 1966 and giving Jonny foreigner a good kicking.
If you look how Britain rose to become this great power, and indeed the workshop of the world, we have a lot to be thankful for to a number of inventions and inventors, and well as the people that sweated day in and day out to make it all happen.
Take the humble steam engine, not only did this mean we could mine coal faster than just about anyone else, much deeper, it meant the UK became the workshop of the world, constructing military equipment, along with transport system to move the goods, and built the biggest city in the world, at least before the war.
That was just one of many.
Of course all this sort of thing is derided these days, as rather dull, boring, and eccentric. We've reach a new high society of Eastenders viewing, vomit contests on Saturday night, immigration hate contests, actually believing what's written in the Daily mail and what the man on TV is saying and Kowtowing to the US, especially the rubbish comedies. Out goes modesty, respect and politeness, in comes boastfulness, fascination with celebrities whose main talent is, well, being in the papers having sex with as many people as possible. But at least it makes a profit and that's all that matters in the UK. The new game is to get one ahead, because all that matters is me, and it's all about me, and that's really what life is about: me.
A cynical look at our society to be sure, and while there is plenty to be pleased about, little of it is mentioned or even known about in some cases. I'm fairly sure however, that I'm not alone in thinking actually, the culture for a good part rather stinks, and other countries might not have quite the same view as some people who 'wrap themselves in the flag' and loud mouth these things on the costa.
Of course ask the average football shirt wearing lager fuelled yob, who loves wrapping themselves in a flag shouting 'ingerland', just want made this country great you will probably get some answer about 1966 and giving Jonny foreigner a good kicking.
If you look how Britain rose to become this great power, and indeed the workshop of the world, we have a lot to be thankful for to a number of inventions and inventors, and well as the people that sweated day in and day out to make it all happen.
Take the humble steam engine, not only did this mean we could mine coal faster than just about anyone else, much deeper, it meant the UK became the workshop of the world, constructing military equipment, along with transport system to move the goods, and built the biggest city in the world, at least before the war.
That was just one of many.
Of course all this sort of thing is derided these days, as rather dull, boring, and eccentric. We've reach a new high society of Eastenders viewing, vomit contests on Saturday night, immigration hate contests, actually believing what's written in the Daily mail and what the man on TV is saying and Kowtowing to the US, especially the rubbish comedies. Out goes modesty, respect and politeness, in comes boastfulness, fascination with celebrities whose main talent is, well, being in the papers having sex with as many people as possible. But at least it makes a profit and that's all that matters in the UK. The new game is to get one ahead, because all that matters is me, and it's all about me, and that's really what life is about: me.
A cynical look at our society to be sure, and while there is plenty to be pleased about, little of it is mentioned or even known about in some cases. I'm fairly sure however, that I'm not alone in thinking actually, the culture for a good part rather stinks, and other countries might not have quite the same view as some people who 'wrap themselves in the flag' and loud mouth these things on the costa.
the sniper
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Cheer up Metroland, you know what they say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ 
I agree with your sentiments though. I find it's important to remember that there still is a sizeable percentage (even, I'd say, a majority) of the people in this country who still stand for 'classic' Britishness, who regularly practice modesty, respect and politeness. Sadly these people (of which I like the count myself one, and I assume that most members of this forum would too) are silent, they don't stand out like the yobs, they just go peacefully about their lives. Never forget about these people, otherwise you'll loose all hope. These, I believe, are the people who still make Britain great (or at least decent
).
I agree with your sentiments though. I find it's important to remember that there still is a sizeable percentage (even, I'd say, a majority) of the people in this country who still stand for 'classic' Britishness, who regularly practice modesty, respect and politeness. Sadly these people (of which I like the count myself one, and I assume that most members of this forum would too) are silent, they don't stand out like the yobs, they just go peacefully about their lives. Never forget about these people, otherwise you'll loose all hope. These, I believe, are the people who still make Britain great (or at least decent
).
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Wyvern
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We still can manufacture things like the Rolls Royce aero engine.
Meanwhile we have a prime minister who refers to us as the junior partner in World War 2 and then goes on to insult Pakistan. If we had to have a Tory Prime Minister, we would have been better with Boris Johnson (seriously)
Meanwhile we have a prime minister who refers to us as the junior partner in World War 2 and then goes on to insult Pakistan. If we had to have a Tory Prime Minister, we would have been better with Boris Johnson (seriously)
Both the UK and the USA were junior partners to the USSR when it came to actually defeating Germany (ignoring Japan for the moment). The figures speak for themselves. There is a clear difference between surviving in the face of a massive assault and turning it around to victory. However, the Germans could never defeat us after the Battle of Britain. Now that's something I am proud of!
TrainBrain185
Member
Well thats your view. To me, they are "heroes", thats not just the generation we have now, but going back in history. For example, the inhumane trenches of WW1, the Dunkirk landings of WW2 and much much more besides.
Yes, they get paid, but not enough and your freedom and liberty and reletive peace you enjoy today has come from soldiers and other armed forces personnel who have lost their lives in passed conflicts and wars to make it so.
Therefore, I see them as "heroes".
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