Future of Class 15x units

[gsnedders]

We now live in a world where decisions about what should happen on the railway are influenced not by what actually happens in reality but by the on-paper characteristics.

I knew that before, but this is such a ridiculous example...

In enough cases the ROSCOs have contracts with TOCs that require air con, and the TOCs have contracts which require them to operate stock with air con, therefore replacing the air con with air cooling requires multiple contract amendments.

As for the general topic: have there been any 20m DMUs built since the 150s? Are there many lines which require 20m DMUs? I presume few if any given how scarce they are.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In enough cases the ROSCOs have contracts with TOCs that require air con, and the TOCs have contracts which require them to operate stock with air con, therefore replacing the air con with air cooling requires multiple contract amendments.

As for the general topic: have there been any 20m DMUs built since the 150s? Are there many lines which require 20m DMUs? I presume few if any given how scarce they are.

I think it’s mostly the Cornish branches that need 20m DMUs. Looe for example could take a single 153 but you weren’t allowed to send a pair as couples 23m stock was a no-go. Pretty sure Gunnislake is 20m stock only and 153s didn’t go there.

Are there any routes on Northern or Wales where it’s 20m stock only?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Replacing air con kit, regardless of its reliability with air cooling kit is considered as a downgrade by them.

That's comedic. Obviously fitting a working full-aircon system would be superior, but surely anything that works is superior to anything that isn't.

Or are they concerned about the effect on corrosion of not having a dry environment?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it’s mostly the Cornish branches that need 20m DMUs. Looe for example could take a single 153 but you weren’t allowed to send a pair as couples 23m stock was a no-go. Pretty sure Gunnislake is 20m stock only and 153s didn’t go there.

Are there any routes on Northern or Wales where it’s 20m stock only?

I can't think of any. However the Cumbrian Coast is 23m stock only[1], because it's narrower and so less likely to whack things.

[1] Sort of. Heritage DMUs were allowed, as were Pacers, but not 150s or indeed 158s, just 153/156 out of Northern's present kit.

 

[83G/84D]

Is there any franchise requirement for GWR to replace / renew any rolling stock?

 

[43096]

That's comedic. Obviously fitting a working full-aircon system would be superior, but surely anything that works is superior to anything that isn't.

Or are they concerned about the effect on corrosion of not having a dry environment?

Is there actually any evidence for that? All we have is one poster saying so.

 

[py_megapixel]

Is there any franchise requirement for GWR to replace / renew any rolling stock?

Not at present except (IIRC) refurbishment of the Network Turbo fleet

 

[Non Multi]

Is there actually any evidence for that? All we have is one poster saying so.

I found out that little nugget of info from JN114 when discussing air cooling as a solution for the 166s (which have the same issue as the 158s) back in 2018...

The Chiltern 165s didn’t have anything before Air Cooling, so it was a positive change of specification.

Theoretically Air Conditioning is superior to Air Cooling - I fully accept given the poor reliability of the AC on the 166s that air cooling would be seen as a dramatic improvement in practice - but Angel (and the DfT) will see it as a negative change of specification. That’s a big no-no in the world of privatised rail operations.

It’s the same argument the DfT are using against reconfiguring the interior on the 166s to a more spacious 2+2 layout better optimised for longer-distance services. At the moment GW can’t justify sufficiently to the DfT how the benefits of a refurbished, revised layout will outweigh the negatives of the loss of capacity that such modifications will cause.

A new Direct Award will hopefully enshrine the 769 introduction and resultant 165 cascade and show GW plan to introduce sufficient additional capacity to the Bristol area to enable the reconfiguration of the 166s. Then in /that/ refurb the Air Con would likely removed and swapped with Air Cooling.

That doesn’t escape the fact though that it’s still Jam “tomorrow” for the foreseeable.

 

[supervc-10]

You might be in for a surprise then. Scotrail have fitted the same design of seat as the infamous "Ironing boards" in the Thameslink trains.
(They've used a bit more padding but I've heard it's still pretty uncomfortable)

As enthusiasts, we have a tendency to look at old rolling-stock through rose-tinted spectacles. But to give you an idea of how much the Sprinters have been left behind, look at the shiny new fleet of Coradias operated by Abellio Mitteldeutschland for regional stoppers in some areas of Germany. I've travelled on the routes they operate and they aren't actually too different to what some of our Sprinters do these days.

They're 2 car DMUs, but they are low-floor with full accessiblity for wheechairs, pushchairs and bikes including level boarding thanks to a sliding step, they are fitted with a decent, easy to read PIS (not like the TrainFX s**t we have over here) and fully accessible toilets. As for the seats, they're actually comfortable and aren't in a silly cramped 3+2 layout. They have huge windows, they're quiet, and while they aren't the smoothest ride I've had they're not a bumpy. And I bet they burn massively less fuel for the same distance.

Der Alstom Coradia Lint von Abellio Mitteldeutschland

Explore neuhold.photography's 2310 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Der Alstom Coradia Lint von Abellio Mitteldeutschland

Explore neuhold.photography's 2310 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

These might be only a couple of years old, but I've travelled on some much older German rolling stock, with very few exceptions, it's been better than a Sprinter in almost every respect.

All of this just makes the fact that we're running 35 year old technology with a cheap refresh and branding it as a transformation in passenger experience even more embarrasing.

Not that I've been on one, but by the sounds of things the 755s with Greater Anglia (and their cousins soon to be with TfW) are of a similar standards.

Once the reliability and the operating in multiple issues are sorted, which I'm sure they will be in due course, it sounds like the FLIRTs make a great replacement for a lot of the Sprinters. I'd imagine that having shorter articulated cars that they might be more suitable for small curving routes too.

 

[LowLevel]

I would imagine the lack of change to the 158 air conditioning situation is down to a lack of wanting to make a very long term investment, the way the 158 kit is laid out would make it pretty major surgery to change it all. The windows are the worst part as they just allow faults to be kicked down the road until B Exams.

We had a bit of a change in attitude with ours in 2018 during the heatwave, following a number of traincrew requiring medical intervention during their shift on 158s at about 1700 one afternoon peak basically the entire 158 fleet was stopped and dumped in various platforms and sidings around the network when the drivers and guards refused to board them and units continued to be refused by the crews in a similar fashion for several weeks.

Since then maintenance has been a lot more focused and availability of air con far better.

 

[Journeyman]

Not that I've been on one, but by the sounds of things the 755s with Greater Anglia (and their cousins soon to be with TfW) are of a similar standards.

Once the reliability and the operating in multiple issues are sorted, which I'm sure they will be in due course, it sounds like the FLIRTs make a great replacement for a lot of the Sprinters. I'd imagine that having shorter articulated cars that they might be more suitable for small curving routes too.

Likewise, I've not been on one, but the Anglia FLIRTs look amazing. If someone suddenly came up with the cash for replacing the West Highland and Far North fleets, I'd struggle to think of anything better.

 

[Mikey C]

I got on a GWR last year with air cooling installed and it was like a fridge, much better than the so-called aircob ob 158s and 166s

The air cooling system installed on the GWR 165s is incredibly effective, though also on the unit I was on really noisy as well!

 

[D2007wsm]

The air cooling system installed on the GWR 165s is incredibly effective, though also on the unit I was on really noisy as well!

I can deal with a little noise as long as it’s cool lol anyway 9/10 I have headphones in anyway

 

[supervc-10]

Agreed @D2007wsm
I can deal with noise, I can't deal with heatstroke! And at any rate, I'm sure it's quieter than the knackered old 150s those 165s are displacing out west!

 

[D2007wsm]

I have no problem with the 150/2s, they ate comfy and have lots of windows which open, the 158s are not so good when it’s hot with no air con as there are only a couple of piddly little windows. I have only had a problem on a 150/2 once when an engine failed, but it struggled on with 1 and didn’t loose too much time.

The worst failure I have encountered wasin a 166. Took nearly 90 minutes to get from Worle to Bristol Temple Meads which usually takes around 24 mins. Kept cutting out and when the driver did get it to move after a long stop would only do around 15 mph. By the time we got to Bristol, there was apparently 9 trains behind. Why they didn’t put it into the loop at Yatton when it encountered the problems just after Worle and wait for another Turbo two trains behind and couple it up to push it.

 

[py_megapixel]

I have no problem with the 150/2s, they are comfy and have lots of windows which open

I would describe the 150s as anything but comfy.

For someone like myself with very long legs, most airline seats on a 150 are simply unusable because I would have my knees rammed right up against the seat in front. I get cramps in my hips and knees rather easily so my only solution is just to use the bay seats, which are slightly better with the caveat that I often have to sit opposite a stranger which I'd generally prefer to avoid.

In the Northern units the seats are also much too narrow and I essentially cannot sit in one without leaning against the person next to me.

 

[Huntergreed]

15x's below 158's are some of the noisiest, bumpiest and least comfortable stock out there in my opinion, and they should be next for the chopping block after the pacers go.

 

[DB]

I think that the 150's and 156's will last on the network until within a year or two of 2030. I don't think they'll become the same political hot potato as the Pacers, due to them being much less recognisable and their origin being somewhat less interesting. Despite being in some regards worse, I think the 150's at least feel somewhat more modern/suitable even if they are essentially the same age.

The 319's seem to all but have disappeared from the Manchester - Bolton corridor, despite being a common site last year!

Considering HST's are probably about 10 years older and will still be running for a couple more years at least too.

150s are pretty horrible trains, and even with an interior refit there's a limit to what could be done as aircon isn't likely to be practical. There are ever fewer trains without it now, and this is going to make them feel 'old'. Likewise 153/5/6 - plus the bus-derived bodyshell of the 153/5 is likely to mean they don't last as long as the 156s as they aren't as robust.

Not sure that a comparison with HSTs is really valid - they do have aircon, those remaining in use have all had new interiors and power doors, and many passengers would not have a clue how old they are.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not sure that a comparison with HSTs is really valid - they do have aircon, those remaining in use have all had new interiors and power doors, and many passengers would not have a clue how old they are.

As for what the passengers think - in the case of Northern I strongly suspect that they still consider a train turning up which isn't either absolutely packed or obviously falling apart to be a win...

 

[DB]

As for what the passengers think - in the case of Northern I strongly suspect that they still consider a train turning up which isn't either absolutely packed or obviously falling apart to be a win...

Well, yes, probably! But Northern has long been a benchmark for the bottom end of the railway vehicle range!

 

[Huntergreed]

Well, yes, probably! But Northern has long been a benchmark for the bottom end of the railway vehicle range!

I would vote Northern as the benchmark for the bottom of everything in terms of competence, they couldn't even make it to the end of their franchise!

 

[Jozhua]

150s are pretty horrible trains, and even with an interior refit there's a limit to what could be done as aircon isn't likely to be practical. There are ever fewer trains without it now, and this is going to make them feel 'old'. Likewise 153/5/6 - plus the bus-derived bodyshell of the 153/5 is likely to mean they don't last as long as the 156s as they aren't as robust.

Not sure that a comparison with HSTs is really valid - they do have aircon, those remaining in use have all had new interiors and power doors, and many passengers would not have a clue how old they are.

I mean I'm not the biggest fan either. I used to hate the 156's when I commuted on them and a 158 was a breath of fresh, A/C air!

I guess the main issue with the 150's is they are not as iconic as the Pacers were, so will likely not become the same political hot potato. Which really cements them as a boring unit!

That said, if I chose between a 331 at 75% capacity or 150 at 25% capacity, I'd take the 150. I enjoy having a nap in the peace and quiet on 4 carriage trains on the Buxton route! (I usually go against rush hour flow as I visit from Manchester)

 

[Huntergreed]

To be fair, I’ve always found the 156’s with Scotrail much nicer than the 328’s and 320’s they operate elsewhere.

Not sure why, but having vestibule ends seems to make a journey much more pleasurable and endurable for a longer period of time!

 

[py_megapixel]

I would vote Northern as the benchmark for the bottom of everything in terms of competence, they couldn't even make it to the end of their franchise!

To be days they're not the only ones - Connex South Eastern, National Express East Coast and Virgin Trains EC have also had their franchises stripped

I nevertheless agree with you about Northern.

 

[43096]

I guess the main issue with the 150's is they are not as iconic as the Pacers were, so will likely not become the same political hot potato. Which really cements them as a boring unit!

I think the word you want is notorious, rather iconic. Unless you were being ironic?

 

[4REP]

To be fair, I’ve always found the 156’s with Scotrail much nicer than the 328’s and 320’s they operate elsewhere.

Not sure why, but having vestibule ends seems to make a journey much more pleasurable and endurable for a longer period of time!

There is no 328.You must mean 318?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Not at present except (IIRC) refurbishment of the Network Turbo fleet

On page 61 of the August 2020 issue of Modern Railways states which GWR have said...

'We're keen to get some additional "Castles" - we've got 11 at present' reports Mr Golton, referring to the short formation 2+4 refurbished HSTs that GWR operates in the West of England. A further pair of power cars and a set of vehicles have recently been sent to Wabtec for assessment and refurbishment. As for the potential use of extra HSTs, Mr Golton reports there are Class 158 diagrams on the Cornish Mainline he'd like to replace:
'A "Castle" has more capacity than a four-car Class 158 and that's very handy in the world of social distancing'.

Getting to the main point here, what do we think may happen with those I guess few 4-car 158's? Now, I'm thinking they could be split up, run as 2-car sets and replace the Pacers, on GWR services, that are coupled up to 150's - all GWR's 15x fleet are gangwayed and 2-car 158's have more seats than a 2-car 143.

It would give GWR spare trains and a few extra for special events - on Twitter before covid-19 there's been complaints about 2-car trains on Exeter locals on special event days.

Yes the 158's have end doors but the 143's do.

 

[DB]

On page 61 of the August 2020 issue of Modern Railways states which GWR have said...

'We're keen to get some additional "Castles" - we've got 11 at present' reports Mr Golton, referring to the short formation 2+4 refurbished HSTs that GWR operates in the West of England. A further pair of power cars and a set of vehicles have recently been sent to Wabtec for assessment and refurbishment. As for the potential use of extra HSTs, Mr Golton reports there are Class 158 diagrams on the Cornish Mainline he'd like to replace:
'A "Castle" has more capacity than a four-car Class 158 and that's very handy in the world of social distancing'.

Getting to the main point here, what do we think may happen with those 158's? Now, I'm thinking they could replace the Pacers, on GWR services, that are coupled up to 150's - all GWR's 15x fleet are gangwayed and 2-car 158's have more seats than a 2-car 143.

Yes the 158's have end doors but the 143's do.

143 vehicles are shorter, and the doors open into the saloon. The narrow doors and vestibules on 158s makes them less than ideal for commuter services

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

143 vehicles are shorter, and the doors open into the saloon. The narrow doors and vestibules on 158s makes them less than ideal for commuter services

Good point - more room to stand as well on commuter trains than end doors. I stood on a 2-car 150, thankfully only from Exeter Central to St. David's (on the 02/01/20), but was fine as you're near the doors which are wider.

 

[Jozhua]

143 vehicles are shorter, and the doors open into the saloon. The narrow doors and vestibules on 158s makes them less than ideal for commuter services

Doesn't stop most TOCs!

The sprinter fleet hasn't been entirely used for intended purposes, at least in regards to the 156 and 158/9.

158/9's still do a lot of heavy lifting in regards to long distance though, Liverpool to Norwich comes to mind!

The funny thing is, the 195's up North are probably displacing more 158's onto commuter diagrams, when their door formations are more suited to it. I do believe a number of 158's are being used as part of the connect services though?

Just a quick question (slightly off topic), are any pacers still staying on with GWR or TFW?