Future of Class 15x units

[Jozhua]

I think that the 150's and 156's will last on the network until within a year or two of 2030. I don't think they'll become the same political hot potato as the Pacers, due to them being much less recognisable and their origin being somewhat less interesting. Despite being in some regards worse, I think the 150's at least feel somewhat more modern/suitable even if they are essentially the same age.

The 319's seem to all but have disappeared from the Manchester - Bolton corridor, despite being a common site last year!

Considering HST's are probably about 10 years older and will still be running for a couple more years at least too.

 

[Journeyman]

The Cummins engine dates back to the late 1960's, it was quite old before it got into the UK rolling stock.

It still seems up to the job, although I guess it's dirtier and more expensive to run than newer engines. The big question regarding replacement engines would be the cost/benefit ratio. Is it worth forking out for major mods on something so old?

 

[py_megapixel]

DELETED

 

[py_megapixel]

Plenty of life left in most 15X type units. I suggest the 153 and 155 are most likely to get the chop in the short term.

The only 15x I'd suggest have "plenty of life left" are the 158/159. Classes 150 to 156 it's impossible to have a peaceful journey on thanks to the loud diesel engine, awful screechy brakes and very poor soundproofing. The interiors, despite the pathetic excuse for a refurb that Northern have delivered late, still feel dated, and they're cramped. The doors are narrow and slow. Also the world has moved on, 2-car DMUs are no longer acceptable for busy commuter services.

Of course, all of this is from a modern point of view. I'm aware they were revolutionary when they were introduced, but a revolutionary design from 35 years ago is as you might expect, becoming very dated.

 

[DarloRich]

The only 15x I'd suggest have "plenty of life left" are the 158/159. Classes 150 to 156 it's impossible to have a peaceful journey on thanks to the loud diesel engine, awful screechy brakes and very poor soundproofing. The interiors, despite the pathetic excuse for a refurb that Northern have delivered late, still feel dated, and they're cramped. The doors are narrow and slow. Also the world has moved on, 2-car DMUs are no longer acceptable for busy commuter services.

Of course, all of this is from a modern point of view. I'm aware they were revolutionary when they were introduced, but a revolutionary design from 35 years ago is as you might expect, becoming very dated.

disagree - they 150/156 are perfectly good rural/suburban units. They could do with a proper refurb but they are solid if unspectacular. As a daily user until recently your description does not match my own experience and i find the northern refresh to have added useful features like usb charging and wifi.

 

[py_megapixel]

disagree - they 150/156 are perfectly good rural/suburban units. They could do with a proper refurb but they are solid if unspectacular. As a daily user until recently your description does not match my own experience and i find the northern refresh to have added useful features like usb charging and wifi.

I'm not sure why our experiences are so different.

Having used these units quite frequently, on both GWR and Northern, and often in peak times, I can say that the Northern ones at least are absolutely atrocious. It would take a very good refurb, and most importantly some proper soundproofing to change my mind... not just "do PRM mods and a basic repaint, slap in some badly set up TrainFX, swap the seat covers and call it a day" which seems to be the attitude Northen have taken.

 

[James James]

As someone who travels primarily on the continent, I'll have to concur that the 156's are pretty horrible vehicles. They're loud, they feel extremely slow, at least the seats were OK (I've only travelled on Scotrail units in recent years). For commuter routes surely you want something that accelerates faster, for scenic routes (hello West Highland line) they just seem embarassing.

 

[py_megapixel]

As someone who travels primarily on the continent, I'll have to concur that the 156's are pretty horrible vehicles. They're loud, they feel extremely slow, at least the seats were OK (I've only travelled on Scotrail units in recent years).

You might be in for a surprise then. Scotrail have fitted the same design of seat as the infamous "Ironing boards" in the Thameslink trains.
(They've used a bit more padding but I've heard it's still pretty uncomfortable)

As enthusiasts, we have a tendency to look at old rolling-stock through rose-tinted spectacles. But to give you an idea of how much the Sprinters have been left behind, look at the shiny new fleet of Coradias operated by Abellio Mitteldeutschland for regional stoppers in some areas of Germany. I've travelled on the routes they operate and they aren't actually too different to what some of our Sprinters do these days.

They're 2 car DMUs, but they are low-floor with full accessiblity for wheechairs, pushchairs and bikes including level boarding thanks to a sliding step, they are fitted with a decent, easy to read PIS (not like the TrainFX s**t we have over here) and fully accessible toilets. As for the seats, they're actually comfortable and aren't in a silly cramped 3+2 layout. They have huge windows, they're quiet, and while they aren't the smoothest ride I've had they're not a bumpy. And I bet they burn massively less fuel for the same distance.

Der Alstom Coradia Lint von Abellio Mitteldeutschland

Explore neuhold.photography's 2310 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Der Alstom Coradia Lint von Abellio Mitteldeutschland

Explore neuhold.photography's 2310 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

These might be only a couple of years old, but I've travelled on some much older German rolling stock, with very few exceptions, it's been better than a Sprinter in almost every respect.

All of this just makes the fact that we're running 35 year old technology with a cheap refresh and branding it as a transformation in passenger experience even more embarrasing.

 

[Mikey C]

The GWR 150/2s aren't bad inside, perfectly ok for the sort of journeys they're used on

 

[D2007wsm]

I think that the 150's and 156's will last on the network until within a year or two of 2030. I don't think they'll become the same political hot potato as the Pacers, due to them being much less recognisable and their origin being somewhat less interesting. Despite being in some regards worse, I think the 150's at least feel somewhat more modern/suitable even if they are essentially the same age.

The 319's seem to all but have disappeared from the Manchester - Bolton corridor, despite being a common site last year!

Considering HST's are probably about 10 years older and will still be running for a couple more years at least too.

The HSTs are a lot nicer and have proper refurbs several times, plus they have air con unlike most of the 15*s and on the 158s it hardly works anyway.

The only 15x I'd suggest have "plenty of life left" are the 158/159. Classes 150 to 156 it's impossible to have a peaceful journey on thanks to the loud diesel engine, awful screechy brakes and very poor soundproofing. The interiors, despite the pathetic excuse for a refurb that Northern have delivered late, still feel dated, and they're cramped. The doors are narrow and slow. Also the world has moved on, 2-car DMUs are no longer acceptable for busy commuter services.

Of course, all of this is from a modern point of view. I'm aware they were revolutionary when they were introduced, but a revolutionary design from 35 years ago is as you might expect, becoming very dated.

The GWR 150/2s aren't bad inside, perfectly ok for the sort of journeys they're used on

I concur, the GWR 150/2s which have the modified 2x2 layout with Chapman seats are fine, they have done a decent job with them, likewise Wessex before GWR/FGW. The glass screens near the doors and the lighting defusers rather than bare tubes helps. The only thing wrong is the poor spacing of seats near to the toilets which are frankly spaced for midgets.

I’m not so keen on those which arrived from Northern with the Ashbourne seat 3x2 layout.

Luckily the 150/2s don’t turn up near me very much anymore. Other than the IET services from my local station, most other services are 158s, 166s or mini HSTs.

 

[py_megapixel]

I concur, the GWR 150/2s which have the modified 2x2 layout with Chapman seats are fine, they have done a decent job with them, likewise Wessex before GWR/FGW. The glass screens near the doors and the lighting defusers rather than bare tubes helps. The only thing wrong is the poor spacing of seats near to the toilets which are frankly spaced for midgets

Oh yes, GWR have done an infinitely better job than NT.
However... this still doesn't solve the problem of the interior noise levels which are, in my opinion, not acceptable, as well as many other things which just make them feel dated.

As an aside I don't understand why Northern didn't fit lighting diffusers to the 150s when they went in for refurb. It's just a strip of plastic - couldn't have been that expensive - and it makes the experience so much nicer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside I don't understand why Northern didn't fit lighting diffusers to the 150s when they went in for refurb. It's just a strip of plastic - couldn't have been that expensive - and it makes the experience so much nicer.

Given the horrible cheap daylight white LED tubes they've fitted, I think it could be argued they don't give a monkey's!

Yes, the GWR units are superb, about as good as it gets on a 35 year old DMU. Arguably nicer than the 80x interior

 

[py_megapixel]

Given the horrible cheap daylight white LED tubes they've fitted, I think it could be argued they don't give a monkey's!

I almost hope this comes back to bite them. Sure, some LEDs themselves can last years and years, but poor quality drivers will kill them. Once the lights start failing I would hope that they will fit something better.

I almost think they've just done it to tick a box, "yes we've installed LEDs"

Ironically the spotlight type ones next to the PRM toilet module are much nicer!

Overall, the standard of the refurb says to me that they're not expecting it to need to last very long...

 

[Mikey C]

The Class 455s are of a similar age, and the separate refurbishments by SWT and Southern transformed their interiors from the horrible BR era original, it's not hard to do

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I almost think they've just done it to tick a box, "yes we've installed LEDs"

Often the rationale to fit LED lighting is to free up enough power on the unit to fit plug sockets...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Often the rationale to fit LED lighting is to free up enough power on the unit to fit plug sockets...

And LEDs are great; the ones in my house, which I paid a fair bit for (Philips branded), you can barely tell they aren't tungsten halogen spotlights other than the conspicuous absence of a 2 bar electric fire radiating heat from the ceiling.

Cheap LEDs however are garbage. And cheap LEDs are what most TOCs have gone for.

 

[Parallel]

As an aside I don't understand why Northern didn't fit lighting diffusers to the 150s when they went in for refurb. It's just a strip of plastic - couldn't have been that expensive - and it makes the experience so much nicer.

To be fair, GWR replaced T8 and the now obsolete T12 tubes with those horrible glarey LED tubes in their 150/1s when they had them. Those 150/1s were awful for many reasons and my heart sank when they turned up shortformed on long distance services such as Malvern - Brighton and Cardiff - Portsmouth. They had regular booked work on Gloucester - Weymouth and regularly turned up on Cardiff - Exeter/Plymouth too. At least GWR has made an improvement over recent years with the 15x class. I have to say the 150/2s are excellent. The lighting cases and glass panels by the doors were added under Wessex Trains if I remember correctly, but FGW did a good quality refurb on them after, now followed by another one by GWR. The seating, lighting and carriage ambiance, now coupled with plug sockets and wifi has made them perfectly nice to travel on IMO.

The ex-Arriva Trains Wales ones are also not bad, although they have exposed T8 tubes and generally feel a bit more run down. The walls near the gangway doors are also interesting on some units, it looks like loads of paint has flaked off on a lot of units.

In terms of 158s, SWT/SWR, TfW and Inverness based Scotrail ones are very good and have been refurbished well IMO and will hopefully see use/find use for some time. I really liked the ATW refurb, they improved the lighting, added extra LED spotlights, installed clear-bottomed overhead luggage racks and chrome luggage spaces, the new seating with the turqouise and grey moquette, with the colour scheme extended down the carriage makes the units feel very bright and airy.

If only the aircon was modified so it works properly in the 158s. If they are expected to last another 20 years, it's probably worth doing... But at least they have openable windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only the aircon was modified so it works properly in the 158s. If they are expected to last another 20 years, it's probably worth doing... But at least they have openable windows.

Chiltern have installed a fully working new air cooling system (technically not aircon as I believe it doesn't control moisture levels accurately) in the 165s. That system needs fitting to all existing ex-BR DMUs and EMUs that aren't of the "fresh air" persuasion. The old CFC based systems just don't work properly with non-CFC refrigerants. (I remember when 158s were like stepping into a fridge! )

 

[43096]

Chiltern have installed a fully working new air cooling system (technically not aircon as I believe it doesn't control moisture levels accurately) in the 165s. That system needs fitting to all existing ex-BR DMUs and EMUs that aren't of the "fresh air" persuasion. The old CFC based systems just don't work properly with non-CFC refrigerants. (I remember when 158s were like stepping into a fridge! )

That's actually not a bad idea for the 158s.

It should also be said that the Liebherr system most 158s now have does actually work - but it has to be maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. How many TOCs do? SWT did, I'd not put money money on many (any?) others doing so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's actually not a bad idea for the 158s.

It should also be said that the Liebherr system most 158s now have does actually work - but it has to be maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. How many TOCs do? SWT did, I'd not put money money on many (any?) others doing so.

I'd probably say anything on the railway that can't be maintained with spit, sawdust, gaffer tape and a big hammer is just not going to work long-term. I do recall reading on here that the Liebherr units require very precise maintenance and that just isn't going to happen. The design needs to be more resilient, which I suspect the Chiltern design is.

 

[LowLevel]

The only 15x I'd suggest have "plenty of life left" are the 158/159. Classes 150 to 156 it's impossible to have a peaceful journey on thanks to the loud diesel engine, awful screechy brakes and very poor soundproofing. The interiors, despite the pathetic excuse for a refurb that Northern have delivered late, still feel dated, and they're cramped. The doors are narrow and slow. Also the world has moved on, 2-car DMUs are no longer acceptable for busy commuter services.

Of course, all of this is from a modern point of view. I'm aware they were revolutionary when they were introduced, but a revolutionary design from 35 years ago is as you might expect, becoming very dated.

As a traincrew bod and a passenger the 156s are the best of the lot, bar the racket from the engines. Low density seating layout, you can actually fit an entire train's worth of luggage in ours - they're awesome rural medium distance machines that are misused like many others on urban services. Bar the crappy doors (which can be fixed if you spend the money, ScotRail have some pretty natty mods on theirs) they're pretty much bomb proof and bar some electrical failure almost always get you home.

I would keep them forever for things like Nottingham - Skegness where the 75 mph speed limit isn't an issue.

 

[LowLevel]

That's actually not a bad idea for the 158s.

It should also be said that the Liebherr system most 158s now have does actually work - but it has to be maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. How many TOCs do? SWT did, I'd not put money money on many (any?) others doing so.

The EMR ones are performing OK (they have issues with certain tasks relating to the air con not having an approved social distancing method of work - I'd go as far as to say the maintenance teams have been brilliant in the circumstances and they don't get told that enough) but they still crap out on busy trains once you get above the low 20 degrees Celsius. Once you get pinhole leaks though the unit tends never to be reliable in terms of air con, it leaks the magic coolant out within days/weeks of being regassed and it's nigh on impossible to fix them in a normal maintenance window.

 

[onlinespotting]

Surely the 155’s and 156’s could work with 153’s in multiples of three or 4 to expand the capacity for social distancing. The 158’s will continue maybe In multiple alongside newer trains. They’re still using pacers in Manchester

 

[Paul_10]

The only 15x I'd suggest have "plenty of life left" are the 158/159. Classes 150 to 156 it's impossible to have a peaceful journey on thanks to the loud diesel engine, awful screechy brakes and very poor soundproofing. The interiors, despite the pathetic excuse for a refurb that Northern have delivered late, still feel dated, and they're cramped. The doors are narrow and slow. Also the world has moved on, 2-car DMUs are no longer acceptable for busy commuter services.

Of course, all of this is from a modern point of view. I'm aware they were revolutionary when they were introduced, but a revolutionary design from 35 years ago is as you might expect, becoming very dated.

From my experiences on a 156, it's much quieter to sit at either end of the train than it is in the middle as your not above the engines then. I'm not sure if it's the same on a 150 but they are noisier but I was once on a full refurb 150/2 unit once and it was fairly impressive and a huge improvement on a unrefurbished 150/1.

As for replacing the 15X fleet then it does not have to be with new units, plenty of middle aged diseals running around. The issue is leasing costs especially with the 185s for example. I think if a franchise is replacing their 15X fleets with cascades(for example Scotrail) then clearly they should be looking at (more) 170s and 185s especially.

I don't think operator's should be obsessed with buying new trains to make themselves look good, sometimes cascades can be just as good especially as more modern trains tend to be more satisfying for passengers.

 

[Non Multi]

Chiltern have installed a fully working new air cooling system (technically not aircon as I believe it doesn't control moisture levels accurately) in the 165s. That system needs fitting to all existing ex-BR DMUs and EMUs that aren't of the "fresh air" persuasion. The old CFC based systems just don't work properly with non-CFC refrigerants. (I remember when 158s were like stepping into a fridge! )

It's seen as a downgrade by the ROSCOs. That's why it has never been done.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's seen as a downgrade by the ROSCOs. That's why it has never been done.

Sorry what? In what universe is air con a downgrade to a train without opening windows? And more to the point, why?

 

[Non Multi]

Sorry what? In what universe is air con a downgrade to a train without opening windows?

Replacing air con kit, regardless of its reliability with air cooling kit is considered as a downgrade by them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Replacing air con kit, regardless of its reliability with air cooling kit is perceived as a downgrade by them.

We now live in a world where decisions about what should happen on the railway are influenced not by what actually happens in reality but by the on-paper characteristics.

I knew that before, but this is such a ridiculous example...

 

[D2007wsm]

I got on a GWR last year with air cooling installed and it was like a fridge, much better than the so-called aircob ob 158s and 166s

 

[Jonny]

As someone who travels primarily on the continent, I'll have to concur that the 156's are pretty horrible vehicles. They're loud, they feel extremely slow, at least the seats were OK (I've only travelled on Scotrail units in recent years). For commuter routes surely you want something that accelerates faster, for scenic routes (hello West Highland line) they just seem embarassing.

They are good units; they are quite quick off the mark (hence the 15x family name being Sprinter) compared to even older units (now retired) although they do not quite have the power of more recent vehicles. They are solid bits of engineering that are up to the sort of job they are given; they may feel slow on lines like the West Highland because of the arrangements around stations (not the RETB per se but the train-operated pointwork etc.) that requires reduced speed. I think they likely have at least a decade left for the 150s and longer for the other ones; the 153s may well end up going first or being used as semi-permanent centre cars.