Future of Class 15x units

[Journeyman]

(Mods: aware this could belong in one of several forums, please feel free to move!)

I'm aware this is a BIG question with a lot of variables to consider, but I've been pondering the future of the oldest DMUs, so our old friends the 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s and 158s. It seems right now that a LOT is happening that could affect their future.

• The COVID-19 crisis could result in long-term suppressed demand, so there could end up being a surplus of rolling stock. If this happens, there is a likelihood that the oldest trains in the fleet could fall off the bottom of the cascade pile. Class 15x units are now pretty old, so they're likely to go if there's generally too much stock knocking about.
• The Class 153 is now no longer fit for purpose and it's very rare to find routes where they operate singly, plus they're very tricky to convert to full accessibility standards, because the toilet would take up an enormous amount of space relative to the vehicle length. Obviously there's a few potential niche uses, such as the ScotRail bike vehicles, but again, will a surplus of other stock see these off?
• Class 155s are a small micro-fleet, and the bodywork isn't great, so they might go too.
• Class 156 units are getting on a bit and don't provide a hugely modern environment for the sort of longer-distance services they were originally designed for.
• Class 158s seem secure for now, but could be vulnerable to future developments.

Obviously there's some new DMUs coming online, in the form of Civity derivatives, so when these appear, presumably they'll cascade stuff off the bottom as above. There's also the possibility of things like the hydrogen train project which seems to be coming along from Alstom (class 321 conversion). There's potentially a lot of Mk 3 EMUs coming off-lease soon. Although the Class 769 has been bit of a disaster, there might be some realistic green reuses of these trains.

Longer term, further electrification seems likely, and Transport Scotland are looking at ridding ScotRail of diesel trains progressively from 2025 to 2035.

So...where does this leave the humble Sprinter, and what do we foresee replacing them all? Gaze into your crystal ball and give me some ideas. And also quote any actual solid facts you might have.

 

[js1000]

The 158s will last for another 15 years at least. But I think the future of the rest of the 15x fleets is not secure. Covid and the fall in passengers numbers in the medium to long term will be the cue to reduce unit numbers and the 15x units (as the oldest) will be the first to go in many cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 158s will last for another 15 years at least. But I think the future of the rest of the 15x fleets is not secure. Covid and the fall in passengers numbers in the medium to long term will be the cue to reduce unit numbers and the 15x units (as the oldest) will be the first to go in many cases.

If the Class 769 project is successful in the end (I know it's been slow!) I could see it and the hydrogen project seeing off 150s, as they're basically the same bodyshell so serve exactly the same purpose.

 

[Class465pacer]

159s? SWR aren’t planning to replace them right now.

 

[Journeyman]

The 158s will last for another 15 years at least. But I think the future of the rest of the 15x fleets is not secure. Covid and the fall in passengers numbers in the medium to long term will be the cue to reduce unit numbers and the 15x units (as the oldest) will be the first to go in many cases.

Yeah, that's what I thought. While the 150 and 156 remain reliable and solid workhorses that can be kept reasonably decent to travel in with refurbs, they're now older than most of the first-gen DMUs they replaced, and I'd imagine they must be getting expensive and difficult to keep in decent nick.

If the Class 769 project is successful in the end (I know it's been slow!) I could see it and the hydrogen project seeing off 150s, as they're basically the same bodyshell so serve exactly the same purpose.

Well, quite, and once the technology matures and gets reliable, what is basically an EMU with some tacked-on gubbins is potentially a lot greener, cheaper and easier to operate. It seems a bumpy ride getting there, though.

 

[Journeyman]

159s? SWR aren’t planning to replace them right now.

Oops, forgot those! File under 158.

 

[Parallel]

I still think there is some life in the 15x yet. They’re not really the most glamorous range of DMUs but they generally serve their purpose quite well.

Once pacers are gone, 150s will probably be the new ‘worst trains’ on the network politically so I suspect TOCs would look to replace them. I can see 150s living out their last days on metro routes/short branch lines with frequent stops, or on rural services.

Some 153s that have been modified will probably survive to strengthen other 15x units.

155s - Never been on one and am not familiar with the area they operate over.

156s - I think they’ll be around for another 10 years or so but I think the TOCs that operate them will probably end up looking to replace them along with their other DMUs with standardised new stock

158s/159s - These surely will be around for the longest. I don’t think any TOCs that currently operate 158s/9s have any plans to replace them except TfW? And even then people are worried the replacement units will be a downgrade in quality.

 

[Energy]

Electrification and new electric trains can replace a lot of the Sprinters, some routes will be Turbostar/Civity/158/159 (maybe 156 but I don't think they will be needed) as electrification is currently not viable for them. Then just use the diesel trains to the end of their lives then evaluate the current options.

 

[Journeyman]

Once pacers are gone, 150s will probably be the new ‘worst trains’ on the network politically so I suspect TOCs would look to replace them. I can see 150s living out their last days on metro routes/short branch lines with frequent stops, or on rural services.

While I can understand that someone will end up with the last ones and probably feel quite hard done by, I wonder if they'll become quite the same sort of political hot potato that the Pacers have?

158s/159s - These surely will be around for the longest. I don’t think any TOCs that currently operate 158s/9s have any plans to replace them except TfW? And even then people are worried the replacement units will be a downgrade in quality.

I'm sure any 158s/159s going off-lease any time soon will get snapped up by other operators, although they're not suitable for everything - ScotRail have used them on various suburban/stopping services and they're not great for that at all because of the door layout. Good for getting rid of 153s, 155s and 156s, though, and still quite a modern-feeling train from the customer's perspective.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I can understand that someone will end up with the last ones and probably feel quite hard done by, I wonder if they'll become quite the same sort of political hot potato that the Pacers have?

I can see that diesel will, but I doubt 150s in and of themselves, being "proper" bogied trains with proper seats. The window view isn't great, but other than that they're pretty solid if basic.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Problem with 150s (and a potential replacement) is they were the last 20m DMUs to be built and certain lines can’t take 23m coaches, or like Looe can take a single 23m coach but not coupled to anything else.

Potentially means a bespoke small build replacement as replace by cascade isn’t feasible in a few cases.

 

[Journeyman]

Problem with 150s (and a potential replacement) is they were the last 20m DMUs to be built and certain lines can’t take 23m coaches, or like Looe can take a single 23m coach but not coupled to anything else.

Potentially means a bespoke small build replacement as replace by cascade isn’t feasible in a few cases.

I wonder if that means a few of them will last a very long time? Otherwise, maybe the FLIRT will be a possible replacement, as the vehicles on those are very short.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if that means a few of them will last a very long time? Otherwise, maybe the FLIRT will be a possible replacement, as the vehicles on those are very short.

In reality extending platforms by 8m (as most new kit is 24m rather than 23) or using SDO is likely to be the fix.

The Marston Vale is an oddity, but I would be surprised if that work wasn't done as part of EWR to allow the use of a homogeneous fleet of DMUs.

 

[Journeyman]

In reality extending platforms by 8m (as most new kit is 24m rather than 23) or using SDO is likely to be the fix.

The Marston Vale is an oddity, but I would be surprised if that work wasn't done as part of EWR to allow the use of a homogeneous fleet of DMUs.

Yeah, the line is getting a lot done so I'm sure platform extensions will be part of the deal.

 

[Caaardiff]

TfW still have plenty of use for 150s and 153s. The 150 fleet has just about finished PRM modifications and they will soon be getting a repaint and internal refresh. They will be needed on the Valleys network at least until the new stock arrives, so probably 3+ year. With the investment put in to them I can see TfW keeping them maybe for some small expansion.
The 153s are currently going through PRM modifications and refresh inside and out so they will be similar to the 150 story.
The 158s are needed in the Cambrian so again required at least 3-4 years until the new stock with ERTMs arrives.

Also don't forget that there may be a huge drop in demand, but the outlook for social distancing remains. So for any TOC it makes sense to not reduce capacity in order to safely transport passengers and help improve passenger confidence in rail transport again.

With the disastrous introduction of 769s and 230s, TfW will likely snap up any 150s going in a heartbeat as the Pacers are still hanging on by a thread and probably will continue to do so until at least the end of this year.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In reality extending platforms by 8m (as most new kit is 24m rather than 23) or using SDO is likely to be the fix.

The Marston Vale is an oddity, but I would be surprised if that work wasn't done as part of EWR to allow the use of a homogeneous fleet of DMUs.

Not talking about platform lengths but the length of the vehicles, 23m vehicles in multiple don’t go round the corners on at least the Looe and Gunnislake branches

 

[YorksLad12]

155s - Never been on one and am not familiar with the area they operate over.

You have if you've been on a 153, which were formed by splitting all of the 155s apart from those owned by West Yorkshire PTE. We hung on to them, then sold them to a Rosco at some point over the past seven years to pay for, mainly, Low Moor Station. They're still with Northern, somewhere.

 

[185143]

You have if you've been on a 153, which were formed by splitting all of the 155s apart from those owned by West Yorkshire PTE. We hung on to them, then sold them to a Rosco at some point over the past seven years to pay for, mainly, Low Moor Station. They're still with Northern, somewhere.

Over in the Hull area now. Saw one on a York service and a pair on a Scarborough earlier.

 

[popeter45]

with the 158/159's i wonder if anybody will try do a 769/799 kind of job with them to make them bi-mode or battery/hydrogen powered or will the 769 situation leave a bad taste in TOC's mouths with regards to BR era unit conversions especially as DMU>BMU conversion is prob much harder than EMU-BMU?

 

[hst43102]

with the 158/159's i wonder if anybody will try do a 769/799 kind of job with them to make them bi-mode or battery/hydrogen powered or will the 769 situation leave a bad taste in TOC's mouths with regards to BR era unit conversions especially as DMU>BMU conversion is prob much harder than EMU-BMU?

No point whatsoever in making them into BMUs - as they are diesel hydraulic units the bogies and motors would all have to be replaced, meaning that new stock would probably be cheaper. They're not long enough to use for hydrogen - and this would require similar modifications to a BMU.

However, I can see these hanging around for at least 15-20 years. Very well built trains and still fairly modern!

 

[4REP]

with the 158/159's i wonder if anybody will try do a 769/799 kind of job with them to make them bi-mode or battery/hydrogen powered or will the 769 situation leave a bad taste in TOC's mouths with regards to BR era unit conversions especially as DMU>BMU conversion is prob much harder than EMU-BMU?

I think the best replacement for 159s is a diesel version of class 730 in 5 car formations with end doors so they can run 10 car from Waterloo to Salisbury then split then run 5 car to exeter. This will increase capacity. I think personally 159s have had their day. They are becoming unsuitable as they can be overcrowded and shortage of luggage space etc.

 

[4REP]

with the 158/159's i wonder if anybody will try do a 769/799 kind of job with them to make them bi-mode or battery/hydrogen powered or will the 769 situation leave a bad taste in TOC's mouths with regards to BR era unit conversions especially as DMU>BMU conversion is prob much harder than EMU-BMU?

I think the best replacement for 159s is a diesel or bi mode version of class 730 in 5 car formations with end doors so they can run 10 car from Waterloo to Salisbury then split then run 5 car to exeter. This will increase capacity. I think personally 159s have had their day. They are becoming unsuitable as they can be overcrowded and shortage of luggage space etc one big issue is passengers leaving luggage blocking doorways.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think the best replacement for 159s is a diesel or bi mode version of class 730 in 5 car formations with end doors so they can run 10 car from Waterloo to Salisbury then split then run 5 car to exeter. This will increase capacity. I think personally 159s have had their day. They are becoming unsuitable as they can be overcrowded and shortage of luggage space etc one big issue is passengers leaving luggage blocking doorways.

Agree. Any 159 replacement needs to be Bimode to run on the juice to Basingstoke then raise the shoes. Unlikely there will be an extension of the third rail so Basingstoke - Exeter would need an "independent power source" Better get those diesels ordered quickly before procurement is banned !!!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Agree. Any 159 replacement needs to be Bimode to run on the juice to Basingstoke then raise the shoes. Unlikely there will be an extension of the third rail so Basingstoke - Exeter would need an "independent power source" Better get those diesels ordered quickly before procurement is banned !!!

It’s not quite as simple as that, the SWML power supply is at its upper limit, many trains often already having to use the “power reduction button” adding 4 additional EMUs an hour between Waterloo and Basingstoke would require significant investment into the power supply.

Take for example of parts of the ECML we have bimode trains running diesel under the wires for the same reason.

 

[Mack91]

Living alongside a Northern route which, now Pacers have bowed out of service locally (South Yorkshire), the sprinter family is the dominant form of traction, it seems from my point of view that there is little chance of this changing for a long time now. 150s work the bulk of the stopping services, and sometimes either a pair or even a single 153 can be seen. Since the (re-)introduction of the Class 195s after the easing of lockdown on the line, 158s can be found on both fast and stopping services. I was led to believe that the 158s were being refurbished so that they could work alongside 195s on the 'big' services into the future. All the 150s and 158s have either recently undergone PRM modifications or are soon to, so I expect them to be around for some years yet.

 

[Mikey C]

Is there any way of re-engining the 150s with something more modern, e.g. the MAN engine from the 769, seeing that the 769 basic bodyshell is very similar?

The Cummins engine in the 150s is now very old tech, dating from the 1980s.

Yes the 150s are old, but they are newer than the D stock being converted into 230s and not much older than the 319s being turned into 769s.

 

[PHILIPE]

with the 158/159's i wonder if anybody will try do a 769/799 kind of job with them to make them bi-mode or battery/hydrogen powered or will the 769 situation leave a bad taste in TOC's mouths with regards to BR era unit conversions especially as DMU>BMU conversion is prob much harder than EMU-BMU?

Don't try messing around with changing modes otherwise we run the risk of another 769 fiasco

 

[RailWonderer]

Not all 15x units were built equal. The 158s and 159s are some of the best built BR trains and SWT maintained them fantastically well. Northern will probably keep theirs longer, 156s will stay but the lower 15x will be replaced because of flimsier body shells and poorer ride quality and maintenance. Then you have to consider the interest rate. If it rises, less new rolling stock will be ordered, causing some sprinters to last longer than intended. Lifespan of rolling stock is all about build quality when new and maintenance level of the fleet. The days are numbered for anything below the 156.

 

[DarloRich]

Plenty of life left in most 15X type units. I suggest the 153 and 155 are most likely to get the chop in the short term.

The Marston Vale is an oddity, but I would be surprised if that work wasn't done as part of EWR to allow the use of a homogeneous fleet of DMUs.

Yeah, the line is getting a lot done so I'm sure platform extensions will be part of the deal.

I am not sure at all. I suspect only stations served by E-W trains ( Woburn/Ridgmont) will get any works

 

[hwl]

Is there any way of re-engining the 150s with something more modern, e.g. the MAN engine from the 769, seeing that the 769 basic bodyshell is very similar?

The Cummins engine in the 150s is now very old tech, dating from the 1980s.

Yes the 150s are old, but they are newer than the D stock being converted into 230s and not much older than the 319s being turned into 769s.

The Cummins engine dates back to the late 1960's, it was quite old before it got into the UK rolling stock.