Suggestions for solving Dawlish problem: electrification or new route?

[RobertsN]

Please forgive me if what I suggest sounds implausible or has been hacked apart previously on some other thread.

The way I see it is the concern about the stretch of line along the sea wall, fundamentally between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth. This nasty (but very beautiful) section is the main concern.

Some (long) time ago, there was a track which headed west at Alphington (just south of Exeter) and meandered a bit (Ide, Longdown, Dunsford, etc.) before ending up at Heathfield.

Could this section of track be re-laid, maybe make it somewhat less meandering as an alternative bypass in case there are issues with the sea wall? The exit from the current Alphington siding looks pretty much clear (with some minor realignment) and it's mostly open country. If any intention was to return to serve the small villages, the stations would obviously have to be located on the edge of towns since the original sites have been (as far as I can see) completely taken over by housing and other buildings. Ideally stations, if added should have platforms on non-through lines (i.e. Up Platform, Up Through, Down Through, Down Platform - "a la" Totnes). This would allow local service (if it makes any sense) where locals could be overtaken easily by through "express" trains (though what is express in that section of Devon/Cornwall is anybody's guess).

There's no need however to follow the original line. A case could probably be built for running next to the Old Exeter Road and head almost straight towards Alphington.

Distance-wise, the option does not seem much different in terms of length to the coast line. If built to the proper standards, it could also possibly be a lot faster. Obviously that the Heathfield line would have to be double tracked and put into proper (relatively) high speed running.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Please forgive me if what I suggest sounds implausible or has been hacked apart previously on some other thread.

The way I see it is the concern about the stretch of line along the sea wall, fundamentally between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth. This nasty (but very beautiful) section is the main concern.

Some (long) time ago, there was a track which headed west at Alphington (just south of Exeter) and meandered a bit (Ide, Longdown, Dunsford, etc.) before ending up at Heathfield.

Could this section of track be re-laid, maybe make it somewhat less meandering as an alternative bypass in case there are issues with the sea wall? The exit from the current Alphington siding looks pretty much clear (with some minor realignment) and it's mostly open country. If any intention was to return to serve the small villages, the stations would obviously have to be located on the edge of towns since the original sites have been (as far as I can see) completely taken over by housing and other buildings. Ideally stations, if added should have platforms on non-through lines (i.e. Up Platform, Up Through, Down Through, Down Platform - "a la" Totnes). This would allow local service (if it makes any sense) where locals could be overtaken easily by through "express" trains (though what is express in that section of Devon/Cornwall is anybody's guess).

There's no need however to follow the original line. A case could probably be built for running next to the Old Exeter Road and head almost straight towards Alphington.

Distance-wise, the option does not seem much different in terms of length to the coast line. If built to the proper standards, it could also possibly be a lot faster. Obviously that the Heathfield line would have to be double tracked and put into proper (relatively) high speed running.

I'm a bit puzzled by this. On the one hand you suggest re-opening the old route via Heathfield but on the other say it's not necessary to follow the original route. If a new route is planned, what relevance has the original route? A Dawlish avoiding line and in particular a faster route between Plymouth and Newton Abbot would have a stronger case as a more direct completely new railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm a bit puzzled by this. On the one hand you suggest re-opening the old route via Heathfield but on the other say it's not necessary to follow the original route. If a new route is planned, what relevance has the original route? A Dawlish avoiding line and in particular a faster route between Plymouth and Newton Abbot would have a stronger case as a more direct completely new railway.

We’re in “full Monty” mode in this thread don’t forget. If we can achieve everything suggested in earlier posts, eg #55, then we’ll actually have four routes across/around Devon.
The current one, (ie where all the massive infrastructure works continue regardless),
a high speed line/bypass route,
a northern meandering route,
and the Teign valley slow route...

 

[MarkyT]

I'm a bit puzzled by this. On the one hand you suggest re-opening the old route via Heathfield but on the other say it's not necessary to follow the original route. If a new route is planned, what relevance has the original route? A Dawlish avoiding line and in particular a faster route between Plymouth and Newton Abbot would have a stronger case as a more direct completely new railway.

He seems to be suggesting that the two ends of the former Teign Valley line could be utilised at Exeter and Newton Abbot, with entirely new construction between. This was the idea behind my Dawlish Avoiding Line suggestion of 2014. It could potentially provide a nearly five miles shorter route than via the coast and might be engineered for 100mph + running and have provision for overhead electrification etc. http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

 

[RobertsN]

I'm a bit puzzled by this. On the one hand you suggest re-opening the old route via Heathfield but on the other say it's not necessary to follow the original route. If a new route is planned, what relevance has the original route? A Dawlish avoiding line and in particular a faster route between Plymouth and Newton Abbot would have a stronger case as a more direct completely new railway.

The point I was trying to make, maybe I wasn't that succint, is that there are 2 accesses to the main line (at Alphington and through Heathfield) which allow connections with a short bypass route without having to demolish swaths of buildings to connect. The original route meanders quite a bit and a significant part of the permanent way is unocuppied (except as mentioned in some of the towns).
Since the whole idea, as I understand it, is to solve the sea-wall riddle, this is probably the shortest option as well as probably the one with the best Cost-Benefit (since it requires significantly less capital outlay due to limited need to purchase land and a short distance to be covered).
Given also that the lay of the land is quite open and not significantly hilly, there is ALSO the option of goind direct from Heathfield to Alphington (effectively a NEW layout), which would probably allow faster speed but would cost more because the PW would have to be rebuilt.

 

[RobertsN]

He's seems to be suggesting that the two ends of the former Teign Valley line could be utilised at Exeter and Newton Abbot, with entirely new construction between. This was the idea behind my Dawlish Avoiding Line suggestion of 2014. It could potentially provide a nearly five miles shorter route than via the coast and might be engineered for 100mph + running and have provision for overhead electrification etc. http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

Thanks, crossed messages there. I think you got the gist of my idea. Looked at the PDF. Nice one.

 

[MarkyT]

We’re in “full Monty” mode in this thread don’t forget. If we can achieve everything suggested in earlier posts, eg #55, then we’ll actually have four routes across/around Devon.
The current one, (ie where all the massive infrastructure works continue regardless),
a high speed line/bypass route,
a northern meandering route,
and the Teign valley slow route...

Teign Valley for the most part isn't at all practical. Much of it has since been buried under roads, part of a tunnel has apparently collapsed and it was long, slow and prone to flooding anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Teign Valley for the most part isn't at all practical. Much of it has since been buried under roads, part of a tunnel has apparently collapsed and it was long, slow and prone to flooding anyway.

So I understand from all the previous discussions. Realism doesn’t seem to come into things once you pass Exeter going west...

 

[83A]

Teign Valley for the most part isn't at all practical. Much of it has since been buried under roads, part of a tunnel has apparently collapsed and it was long, slow and prone to flooding anyway.

As an ex local from this area I agree. The A30 dissects the route at the Exeter end, the Teign valley is prone to flooding and narrow in places. Then the A38 is built over much of the track towards the Heathfield end. You would need a sharp left hand bend to join the current disused Heathfield branch and pass back under the A38.

You can do it of course but I would imagine the money would be better spent starting a long tunnel near Exminster and coming out to join the current line to the north east of Newton Abbot near Kingsteignton.

You can then allow the existing sea wall route along with Dawlish and Teignmouth be reclaimed by the sea…… no bad thing in my view

 

[MarkyT]

You can then allow the existing sea wall route along with Dawlish and Teignmouth be reclaimed by the sea…… no bad thing in my view

As someone who remains a resident in nearby Torbay I wouldn't dream of suggesting that! Removal of the fast trains could allow some simplification of assets though, i.e some singling along the sea wall, which could facilitate day to day maintenance, and the route would not need to remain open for such long hours so longer closures for heavier jobs would be easier to arrange at quieter times. Baypaul made an interesting suggestion earlier that two largely single track branches might remain in the more distant future, one from Newton Abbot to Teignmouth and one from Exeter to Dawlish, allowing the more difficult section through the tunnels between to be abandoned. In that scenario, through local trains between Exeter and Teignmouth might survive as portions of Torbay locals, detaching and reversing at Newton Abbot. Alternative direct public transport between Torbay and Teignmouth/Dawlish exists along the coast road in the form of the hourly Stagecoach No. 22 route, although it is rather slow and like many of the more peripheral routes in the last few years is now finishing frustratingly early in the evening. It is still possible to go by bus via Newton Abbot instead however outside the #22 service hours.

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/South%20West/June152020/22_Oct27.pdf

 

[swt_passenger]

As someone who remains a resident in nearby Torbay I wouldn't dream of suggesting that! Removal of the fast trains could allow some simplification of assets though, i.e some singling along the sea wall, which could facilitate day to day maintenance, and the route would not need to remain open for such long hours so longer closures for heavier jobs would be easier to arrange at quieter times. Baypaul made an interesting suggestion earlier that two largely single track branches might remain in the more distant future, one from Newton Abbot to Teignmouth and one from Exeter to Dawlish, allowing the more difficult section through the tunnels between to be abandoned...

You’d better let Network Rail know quickly, because according to the August Modern Railways, after Dawlish part 2 (Coastguards to Colonnade), then the next three phases of the resilience work are intended to fix the problems between Kennaway tunnel and Teignmouth...

 

[Dr Hoo]

'Rationalised' doesn't mean an inexorable decline at all. The word has been badly contaminated by its use in the Beeching era to mean cuts alone but literally in the transport field it must surely mean adapting the infrastructure to exactly meet required service levels, whatever those are. Theoretically, that could mean expanding the number of tracks and other facilities if necessary. In the case of the sea wall it would probably have meant some singling, but with a double track fast line bypassing the local stations that could have still provided better and more reliable and capacious local as well as bypassing express services, while reducing costs and facilitating sea wall maintenance while trains were still running. It is unlikely the sea wall could have been abandoned in its entirety as in Dawlish particularly it protects the town from the sea, so to retain at least a single track on the structure might not represent a significantly greater cost. Furthermore, the existing stations serve the coast facing towns far better than any inland replacements a few miles away ever could, so would naturally have been very compelling to retain as part of the local service.

The Western Region actually did quite well in keeping 'avoiding lines'. Weston-Super-Mare, Westbury, Frome and Didcot all did and the Badminton route could be seen as an avoiding line really. Even Bristol Temple Meads sort of kept the one via St Philip's Marsh depot. Some facilities, such as the through Goods Lines avoiding Taunton station, were lost.

And to be historically correct, referring back to 83A's post, it was, of course, the infamous Surplus Track Capacity [hasty elimination] Grants under the 1968 Transport Act that led to the 'scorched earth' mindset on routes that remained open.

 

[MarkyT]

You’d better let Network Rail know quickly, because according to the August Modern Railways, after Dawlish part 2 (Coastguards to Colonnade), then the next three phases of the resilience work are intended to fix the problems between Kennaway tunnel and Teignmouth...

When I say long term I'm thinking well outside my own lifespan in timescales of centuries, so some work is definitely necessary to secure the alignment in the interim! I would personally prefer that the coast route survived as a part of through local route as long as humanly possible, still also available for scenic excursions etc. Truncation to the two branch configuration would then be an emergency response available in event of (say) an unrecoverable tunnel/cliff collapse once the alternative inland route had been well established.

 

[MarkyT]

The Western Region actually did quite well in keeping 'avoiding lines'. Weston-Super-Mare, Westbury, Frome and Didcot all did and the Badminton route could be seen as an avoiding line really. Even Bristol Temple Meads sort of kept the one via St Philip's Marsh depot. Some facilities, such as the through Goods Lines avoiding Taunton station, were lost.

Most of the Avoiders and new main lines were used by appreciable numbers of time-sensitive non-stopping expresses that were considered the bright future of a successful rail business and would have been slowed down considerably by having to negotiate the tortuous junctions and station layouts no longer bypassed, even without a stop being made, York style. Westbury might have been a borderline case, as quite a number of longer distance trains stopped there, and it could plausibly have become a routine stop on all west country expresses in the HST era, in which case the avoider would have had no journey time-saving purpose and could have been dispensed with. There were Goods Avoiders at Exeter too, crossing Station Road to the west of the station, although I think they were severed long before resignalling, when the remnants of those similar facilities at Taunton were finally removed.

And to be historically correct, referring back to 83A's post, it was, of course, the infamous Surplus Track Capacity [hasty elimination] Grants under the 1968 Transport Act that led to the 'scorched earth' mindset on routes that remained open.

I wonder if the ghostly form of this legislation was resurrected by Maggie's treasury wonks to force BRB into the major cuts implemented in early 1980s schemes as I recounted here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/awkward-platforms.207113/#post-4693460
I'd guess it was either this or major cuts to new train fleets of the time including HSTs and Sprinters. A warning from the past of what fully state-controlled railways can be like under Conservative administrations perhaps?

 

[Lucan]

Realism doesn’t seem to come into things once you pass Exeter going west...

It even affected the great Brunel, with his Atmospheric Railway. There are strange vibes in this area, I'm convinced the epicentre is at Totnes

 

[MarkyT]

It even affected the great Brunel, with his Atmospheric Railway. There are strange vibes in this area, I'm convinced the epicentre is at Totnes

I've often wondered what was really in those fat cigars Victorians liked that were allegedly so inspirational...

 

[Railwaysceptic]

We’re in “full Monty” mode in this thread don’t forget. If we can achieve everything suggested in earlier posts, eg #55, then we’ll actually have four routes across/around Devon.
The current one, (ie where all the massive infrastructure works continue regardless),
a high speed line/bypass route,
a northern meandering route,
and the Teign valley slow route...

The option I support is a high(er) speed, more direct bypass route. It doesn't have to be very high speed over such short distances, but mostly 100mph between Plymouth and Exeter would be very welcome and a major improvement.

While we're in "full Monty" mode, can any of the "locals" say how busy and important is the route between Newton Abbot and Paignton?

 

[83A]

There are strange vibes in this area, I'm convinced the epicentre is at Totnes

Trago Mills for example. Weird place.

 

[MarkyT]

The option I support is a high(er) speed, more direct bypass route. It doesn't have to be very high speed over such short distances, but mostly 100mph between Plymouth and Exeter would be very welcome and a major improvement.

While we're in "full Monty" mode, can any of the "locals" say how busy and important is the route between Newton Abbot and Paignton?

In recent years, the branch has justified a more frequent 30-minute interval local service throughout the day. I had suspected that custom might be lost when the A380 Kingskerswell bypass was opened, ending the notorious traffic jams and making buses on the old road far more reliable, but traffic around the Newton Abbot end in particular is actually still awful, perhaps even worse with induced demand from the new road, and peak journey time on buses can still be highy unpredictable. Thus train usage remains surprisingly strong for work and education journeys where people demand reliability. Stations aren't best located in Newton Abbot and Torquay for inbound commuting although easy interchange onto high-frequency bus routes are available at both and they are walkable to many parts of their respective towns. Paignton station location is excellent for seafront and town centre and colocated with the bus station for easy interchange. The journey time for local trains along the coast line to Exeter is fairly slow compared to car on the A380, but the train seems to retain market share from Torbay, so much so that there is no frequent all-day express bus from Torbay to Exeter, with only four daily round trips surviving recent service revisions.

 

[83A]

While we're in "full Monty" mode, can any of the "locals" say how busy and important is the route between Newton Abbot and Paignton?

I’d say pretty important. The Torbay area is the largest conurbation in Devon outside of Exeter or Plymouth. Plus it’s a tourist destination.
Hence why opening the Okehampton route as a sea wall diversion is the incorrect option in my opinion.

 

[MarkyT]

Trago Mills for example. Weird place.

Very Brexity. A major funder of the campaign apparently, and interesting that UKIP had their head office nearby... Hate the place myself as I don't want politics shoved down my throat with my bargains thank you very much. My parents knew the phenomenon from when the original founder sold army surplus from Nissen huts in the woods. For decades he used to write an outspoken 'column' (actually a paid for full page advert) in all the local papers denouncing every local councillor west of Bristol for their laziness and corruption and how they all had it in for him personally and thrusting entrepreneurs like him etc, etc.

 

[83A]

Very Brexity. A major funder of the campaign apparently, and interesting that UKIP had their head office nearby... Hate the place myself as I don't want politics shoved down my throat with my bargains thank you very much. My parents knew the phenomenon from when the original founder sold army surplus from Nissen huts in the woods. For decades he used to write an outspoken 'column' (actually a paid for full page advert) in all the local papers denouncing every local councillor west of Bristol for their laziness and corruption and how they all had it in for him personally and thrusting entrepreneurs like him etc, etc.

I too hate the place. My mother knows that bloke who owns it. His Brexit stance gets all the local gammons fired up while they buy his overpriced tat. As someone well traveled and pro EU it all makes me cringe.

As a side note. When a lad, I used to work at the now defunct Gorse Blossom miniature railway, which was located not far from Trago. Mr Trago visited and decided he wanted a train set all of his own and built the Trago railway. No need to setup this competition I feel.

 

[The Ham]

I’d say pretty important. The Torbay area is the largest conurbation in Devon outside of Exeter or Plymouth. Plus it’s a tourist destination.
Hence why opening the Okehampton route as a sea wall diversion is the incorrect option in my opinion.

Indeed, which is why the Okehampton route should only ever be there in parallel with the existing line.

Which is why I've suggested that it should aim to reduce the need to travel via Reading from areas in SWR areas, so that there's then more capacity available for travel along the GWR route for those heading to the Torbay area.

Actually with an alternative route to Plymouth it could allow more services to run to the Torbay area, by extending the current semi fast services to Exeter to the Torbay area. Without such an alternative route if there were to be future extensions to these services then they are most likely to be extended to Plymouth.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

In recent years, the branch has justified a more frequent 30-minute interval local service throughout the day. I had suspected that custom might be lost when the A380 Kingskerswell bypass was opened, ending the notorious traffic jams and making buses on the old road far more reliable, but traffic around the Newton Abbot end in particular is actually still awful, perhaps even worse with induced demand from the new road, and peak journey time on buses can still be highy unpredictable. Thus train usage remains surprisingly strong for work and education journeys where people demand reliability. Stations aren't best located in Newton Abbot and Torquay for inbound commuting although easy interchange onto high-frequency bus routes are available at both and they are walkable to many parts of their respective towns. Paignton station location is excellent for seafront and town centre and colocated with the bus station for easy interchange. The journey time for local trains along the coast line to Exeter is fairly slow compared to car on the A380, but the train seems to retain market share from Torbay, so much so that there is no frequent all-day express bus from Torbay to Exeter, with only four daily round trips surviving recent service revisions.

I’d say pretty important. The Torbay area is the largest conurbation in Devon outside of Exeter or Plymouth. Plus it’s a tourist destination.
Hence why opening the Okehampton route as a sea wall diversion is the incorrect option in my opinion.

Thank you, gentlemen. I'll have to go down there one day.

 

[Irascible]

There were Goods Avoiders at Exeter too, crossing Station Road to the west of the station, although I think they were severed long before resignalling, when the remnants of those similar facilities at Taunton were finally removed.

I have a vague memory that they were cut when Red Cow crossing gates stopped being manually operated ( given how long ago that was & how small I was I could be very mistaken ) - they're mostly still there, only the south end is part of the depot. Hasn't been much freight to need a bypass for quite some time...

-

Torbay is large enough to have it's own unitary authority, as a pop centre it's reasonably dense - I'm rather unsure of the demographics of the area now though. Exeter is definitely the local employment centre ( in fact for quite a large part of the entire county, really. ).

 

[MarkyT]

I have a vague memory that they were cut when Red Cow crossing gates stopped being manually operated ( given how long ago that was & how small I was I could be very mistaken ) - they're mostly still there, only the south end is part of the depot. Hasn't been much freight to need a bypass for quite some time...

There was a separate box on the goods lines (Exeter Goods Yard) which must have cooperated with Exeter Middle in operating the gates for the crossing. As well as the designated up and down goods lines, there were a number of sidings that also crossed the road. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwe/S834.htm

Torbay is large enough to have it's own unitary authority, as a pop centre it's reasonably dense - I'm rather unsure of the demographics of the area now though. Exeter is definitely the local employment centre ( in fact for quite a large part of the entire county, really. ).

While it definite IS a unitary, there are many in Torbay who believe that gaining that status was a big mistake, and costs for council tax payers might be better controlled if many services were still under Devon County Council control. Exeter was all set ready to become a unitary in 2010, but the incoming coalition government cancelled that immediately in one of their very early decisions.

 

[Irascible]

There was a separate box on the goods lines (Exeter Goods Yard) which must have cooperated with Exeter Middle in operating the gates for the crossing. As well as the designated up and down goods lines, there were a number of sidings that also crossed the road. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwe/S834.htm

Boxes everywhere. I think the first time I can rememeber going down there I must have been 3 so that would be mid-70s, and I can just remember this maze of rails & rodding & gantries & wires everywhere ( and incidentally, slightly pink ballast - what happened to that? was that from Meldon? it was a really memorable colour ) - people call railways Victorian relics now, but they obviously can't remember that far back! it was admittedly fascinating. Exeter did have the through road between the east platforms too, so in the unlikely event that some sort of avoider is needed again - I can't think why! - there's still a bit of space left, I suppose.

I'm sure I've seen plans for the pre-ww2 Dawlish avoiding line in a previous thread, does anyone have a reference? unfortunately for Plymouth unless there's some radical South-West powerhouse idea ( right... ) I think that is going to be the limits of any new main line - and I'm more likely to believe NR will make a plan to enclose the entire seafront line in a box than build something completely new at this point.