UK face coverings discussion

[Yew]

There are certainly people arguing that. Interestingly, Duncan Bannatyne, who (a) owns a large chain of gyms, and (b) is a very strong supporter of masks, is not arguing that.

I'd put a reasonable sum of money on Bannatyne having some sort of business interest in a mask company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd put a reasonable sum of money on Bannatyne having some sort of business interest in a mask company.

Wouldn't surprise me, but what I find notable is that he is quite specific that he very specifically does not advocate wearing them when exercising, just when knocking around the gym building and interacting with staff. (He keeps saying that on his Twitter in response to people falsely claiming he did say that).

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Wouldn't surprise me, but what I find notable is that he is quite specific that he very specifically does not advocate wearing them when exercising, just when knocking around the gym building and interacting with staff. (He keeps saying that on his Twitter in response to people falsely claiming he did say that).

I hope he is also advocating good hand hygiene between periods of wearing a mask and not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope he is also advocating good hand hygiene between periods of wearing a mask and not.

He's advocating sanitising before/between/after using equipment, so effectively, yes.

 

[Enthusiast]

There are certainly people arguing that. Interestingly, Duncan Bannatyne, who (a) owns a large chain of gyms, and (b) is a very strong supporter of masks, is not arguing that.

Well he wouldn't do, would he!

 

[Kendalian]

An estimate? So in other words, a wild guess then?

I'll stick with the official figures, which today show just 7 coronavirus-related deaths in the UK which, considering at its peak over 1,000 people day were dying with it suggest the virus is very much on its way out.

Monday's death figure has consistently been much lower than other days due to weekend delays in reporting deaths. Tomorrow's will be much higher sadly

 

[Yew]

He's advocating sanitising before/between/after using equipment, so effectively, yes.

There aren't many covid precautions that I'd support keeping, but disinfectant wipes near gym equipment could be one of them!

 

[MikeWM]

Just back from Sainsburys, where an unfortunate outbreak seems to have taken hold. Last week only a few customers had 'missing nose and mouth' disease. But tonight everyone apart from me seemed to be suffering from it. Most alarming. I hope I don't catch it

Various staff looking uncomfortable. One assistant complaining to another about having to wear a mask, who told her back it would only be 'for a little while'. I didn't have the heart to point out that unfortunately that seems unlikely.

Best observation was the woman in the chilled desserts aisle, who was contemplating the shelves while tapping away repeatedly on the front of her mask right over her mouth, and then proceeded to pick various items up. Ugh - I'm far less bothered about germs than most seem to be nowadays, but even I thought that was icky!

 

[High Dyke]

I called in M&S on my way home earlier. I used one of the disposable type mask whilst in the store. I was only in there about 10 minutes, but the thing started to cause me irritation around the chin area. I can understand why the wife now chooses to wear a scarf instead of one of these all day at work - when needed.

 

[BJames]

There aren't many covid precautions that I'd support keeping, but disinfectant wipes near gym equipment could be one of them!

Agreed. Always thought the cleaning regimes could be stepped up in mine.

Best observation was the woman in the chilled desserts aisle, who was contemplating the shelves while tapping away repeatedly on the front of her mask right over her mouth, and then proceeded to pick various items up. Ugh - I'm far less bothered about germs than most seem to be nowadays, but even I thought that was icky!

Exactly why statements like "it can't be worse wearing a mask than not wearing one" don't always ring true.[/QUOTE]

 

[talldave]

I did a large shop at our big Sainsbury's tonight. I'd guess around 20-25% of shoppers without masks and another 5-10% with masks/coverings down around their neck. Similar uptake for staff.

It was all very calm and "normal". That was until I got to the exit where there was a large group of people shouting at one another. The rest of us had to squeeze out the "In" door past the arriving police vehicles. No idea what altercation was about, but that's London I guess!

 

[Jonny]

It seems that people may be voting with their feet - and staying away.

Drop in shoppers on first day face coverings rule was introduced

People seemed slightly more cautious, according to retail footfall data.

metro.co.uk

via http://archive.vn/cpIlQ

Drop in shoppers on first day face coverings rule was introduced

There were fewer customers on the first day it became mandatory to wear face masks in public places such as shops, supermarkets and takeaways.
People seemed slightly more cautious, according to retail footfall data. It showed that the number of shoppers declined by 0.2% on Friday compared to the previous Friday, following a week of relatively steady increases in traffic to stores and supermarkets.
Friday marked the first day that shoppers in England had been legally obliged to wear a face covering or risk a fine. Anyone flouting the rules without an exemption risks a £100 fine – reduced to £50 if paid quickly.
Data from retail intelligence company Springboard revealed the drop in footfall in England compared to modest growth in shoppers elsewhere in the UK where different regulations on face coverings are in force.
(article continues)

Given that the rest of the UK had an upward trend, is it likely that face masks are having a negative effect?

 

[birchesgreen]

It seems that people may be voting with their feet - and staying away.

I think its too early to draw a conclusion from a 0.2% reduction, that kind of variation can be for any number of reasons. Although i do think masks will put some shoppers off.

 

[farleigh]

I think its too early to draw a conclusion from a 0.2% reduction, that kind of variation can be for any number of reasons. Although i do think masks will put some shoppers off.

I agree that it is no real indicator of a drop.

However, for a policy that was hoped by many to increase the number of people who feel comfortable out and about it is far from a ringing endorsement.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The law should written as a face covering is required, and the government recommends a three layer one, whilst quoting the relevant research (ha ha!)

The Welsh face covering mandate does not, despite the Welsh Government's pathetic campaign of misinformation, require the use of any particular kind of face covering. It uses the same definition of face covering as England, Scotland and Northern Ireland have adopted in their relevant Regulations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I agree that it is no real indicator of a drop.

However, for a policy that was hoped by many to increase the number of people who feel comfortable out and about it is far from a ringing endorsement.

If the policy had been a success then the shops would no doubt be seeing substantial increases in patronage, back towards normal (if not higher, as a lot of people are still on furlough or working from home). The fact that we saw a surge on the days leading up to the mask mandate, and then a drop, kinda says it all. The public complies because most people see it as an inconvenience at worst, but it certainly adds to the factual matrix that pushes most people away from going to shops in person.

 

[AdamWW]

The Welsh face covering mandate does not, despite the Welsh Government's pathetic campaign of misinformation, require the use of any particular kind of face covering. It uses the same definition of face covering as England, Scotland and Northern Ireland have adopted in their relevant Regulations.

Interesting.

If that's the case, it is a shame that they have claimed otherwise. To put it mildly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting.

If that's the case, it is a shame that they have claimed otherwise. To put it mildly.

It's not substantially different from England, though, which for example asks you not to meet in groups of more than 6 but the law says 30.

 

[AdamWW]

It's not substantially different from England, though, which for example asks you not to meet in groups of more than 6 but the law says 30.

I have absolutely no problem with being told that the law says one thing but they ask you to go beyond it.

I do have a problem when the guidance is claimed to be part of the law, as has been the case with face coverings on trains.

Though to be fair this might have been due to confusion over what the law was actually going to say - I can't see anything now claiming that the 3 layer thing is the law although previously I did.

 

[talldave]

I think the 3 layers refers to the provision of information: law, guidelines rumour.

 

[al78]

This should ruffle a few feathers on here:

Rise of the anti-maskers: The psychology of why face coverings are causing so much upset

A divisive new battleground has emerged in recent weeks between Britons who are angry at being forced to wear face masks, and those equally furious about non-compliance. Libertarians, massing under th...

uk.yahoo.com

I've only scan read it but doesn't seems to mention any of the reasons I have for skepticism, such as scientific evidence of effectiveness balanced with undesirable side effects, that wearing one isn't particularly comfortable, and it is something to have to remember to bring with me when I want to go shopping. It prefers to focus on the psychological aspects, which I don't connect with.

 

[LAX54]

I called in M&S on my way home earlier. I used one of the disposable type mask whilst in the store. I was only in there about 10 minutes, but the thing started to cause me irritation around the chin area. I can understand why the wife now chooses to wear a scarf instead of one of these all day at work - when needed.

are they not now saying that unless it is made of 3 layers, then it is of not much use? so imagine a scarf / bandana is worn just to meet the 'regulalation'

 

[Yew]

This should ruffle a few feathers on here:

Rise of the anti-maskers: The psychology of why face coverings are causing so much upset

A divisive new battleground has emerged in recent weeks between Britons who are angry at being forced to wear face masks, and those equally furious about non-compliance. Libertarians, massing under th...

uk.yahoo.com

I've only scan read it but doesn't seems to mention any of the reasons I have for skepticism, such as scientific evidence of effectiveness balanced with undesirable side effects, that wearing one isn't particularly comfortable, and it is something to have to remember to bring with me when I want to go shopping. It prefers to focus on the psychological aspects, which I don't connect with.

It does seem to focus more on the US style ibertarianisim, as opposed to the factual arguments about effectiveness that we've been having here.

Initially I wasn't adverse to Simon Dolan, but he's slowly becoming more Trumpian and conspiriacy-esque in nature.

 

[Bantamzen]

This should ruffle a few feathers on here:

Rise of the anti-maskers: The psychology of why face coverings are causing so much upset

A divisive new battleground has emerged in recent weeks between Britons who are angry at being forced to wear face masks, and those equally furious about non-compliance. Libertarians, massing under th...

uk.yahoo.com

I've only scan read it but doesn't seems to mention any of the reasons I have for skepticism, such as scientific evidence of effectiveness balanced with undesirable side effects, that wearing one isn't particularly comfortable, and it is something to have to remember to bring with me when I want to go shopping. It prefers to focus on the psychological aspects, which I don't connect with.

Unfortunately the other thing it seems to miss is the kind of discipline required for mask usage in medical situations (and this is what is being used to justify masks), i.e. not touching, washing hands and replacing them etc.

 

[duncanp]

Unfortunately the other thing it seems to miss is the kind of discipline required for mask usage in medical situations (and this is what is being used to justify masks), i.e. not touching, washing hands and replacing them etc.

And did anyone see the BBC News this morning where the reporter, Gavin Lee, was talking about this situation in Barcelona, and during the interview he touched his mask at least once.

It is very easy to say you shouldn't touch your mask, replace it after 4 hours... etc, but it is quite another thing to keep this up in practice, day after day.

 

[Bantamzen]

And did anyone see the BBC News this morning where the reporter, Gavin Lee, was talking about this situation in Barcelona, and during the interview he touched his mask at least once.

It is very easy to say you shouldn't touch your mask, replace it after 4 hours... etc, but it is quite another thing to keep this up in practice, day after day.

And indeed in practice it won't, rendering the whole exercise effectively useless, potentially even a negative factor.

 

[takno]

It does seem to focus more on the US style ibertarianisim, as opposed to the factual arguments about effectiveness that we've been having here.

Initially I wasn't adverse to Simon Dolan, but he's slowly becoming more Trumpian and conspiriacy-esque in nature.

Weird article. Starts by strongly suggesting that everybody with an opinion on the matter must fit in one of two boxes, neither of which is a really good fit for anybody I've spoken to in the UK.

It then follows it with a diagram showing how useless they are, and a lengthy section about reasons why people may be genuinely distressed by masks. This covers how different people respond differently to social cues, meaning that some people might not be that bothered and others may be genuinely distressed by being surrounded by masks. This is interesting, in that it covers why somebody else's anecdotes about how you get used to it are essentially just unhelpful. It doesn't however even mention the direct anxiety the wearing of a mask can cause individuals.

Finally it goes on to repeat the same old nonsense about everybody in Scotland getting used to it and loving it now. The only evidence they present for this is an anecdote with no professional basis from some psychologist in St Andrews. Not only is this not data led or scientific, it is also useless for the reasons anecdotes are shown to be useless in the section above.

Personally I haven't been in a shop in Scotland since this came in, but my impression from talking to people who are more able to wear the masks is that shop staff survived the height of the plague just fine, and are mostly now just irritated at being expected to spend their working lives in some discomfort.

 

[AdamWW]

Personally I haven't been in a shop in Scotland since this came in, but my impression from talking to people who are more able to wear the masks is that shop staff survived the height of the plague just fine, and are mostly now just irritated at being expected to spend their working lives in some discomfort.

I completely understand why masks may do more harm than good.
There are many reasons to suggest that people shouldn't be made to wear them (or perhaps should be even encouraged not to).

But - "we managed before without them" is not a valid argument against them.

The game at present is to try to keep transmission down. If masks help, then they are one in a range of tools that help this.

Just because they weren't used earlier doesn't mean they must be no use now, and - again - if masks help, then as the country opens up and people have to get closer together (e.g. on public transport) then their utility will be much greater now than it would have been when most people were remaining at home.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I completely understand why masks may do more harm than good.
There are many reasons to suggest that people shouldn't be made to wear them (or perhaps should be even encouraged not to).

But - "we managed before without them" is not a valid argument against them.

The game at present is to try to keep transmission down. If masks help, then they are one in a range of tools that help this.

Just because they weren't used earlier doesn't mean they must be no use now, and - again - if masks help, then as the country opens up and people have to get closer together (e.g. on public transport) then their utility will be much greater now than it would have been when most people were remaining at home.

And if compulsory masks were introduced so that other short-term measures such as social distancing could be scrapped altogether I think most people would be far more understanding. For example on trains it would be great to get back to sitting wherever you like and not have the guard constantly barking instructions about what you're not allowed to do throughout your journey.

But to effectively add a new draconian restriction to our freedom on top of the existing guidelines at a time when we're supposed to be returning to normal seems a backward step and seems to have triggered an awful lot of fear and anxiety.

 

[takno]

I completely understand why masks may do more harm than good.
There are many reasons to suggest that people shouldn't be made to wear them (or perhaps should be even encouraged not to).

But - "we managed before without them" is not a valid argument against them.

The game at present is to try to keep transmission down. If masks help, then they are one in a range of tools that help this.

Just because they weren't used earlier doesn't mean they must be no use now, and - again - if masks help, then as the country opens up and people have to get closer together (e.g. on public transport) then their utility will be much greater now than it would have been when most people were remaining at home.

I wasn't trying to make an argument in any direction. I was specifically stating the feedback I'd heard from Scottish store staff on the sudden imposition of masks, mostly to point out that they weren't all that happy and grateful that Stephen Reicher, Professor of Social Psychology at the University of St Andrews, had put a mask on.