UK face coverings discussion

[Bantamzen]

Scotland and Wales appear to have come very close to doing so.

New Zealand has succeeded.

I don't deny anything, you can check for yourself, none of these countries have eliminated the virus. Go ahead, check using your favoured search engine. Then come back and tell me they have eradicated it. Methinks a little more research, and a whole lot less rhetoric might be useful at this point.

 

[Bayum]

I think threads like this just show how selfish westerners are and how much of an ‘I’ culture we live in. Compare that to some Asian countries where they have a ‘we’ culture and face masks are worn out of respect for others and not wanting to pass on coughs, colds or other airway nasties to others. All voluntarily as well. Over here, we have some actively changing their shopping habits to be at supermarkets who refuse to enforce such measures, or flaunting themselves on social media doing so. What an absolute shame.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think threads like this just show how selfish westerners are and how much of an ‘I’ culture we live in. Compare that to some Asian countries where they have a ‘we’ culture and face masks are worn out of respect for others and not wanting to pass on coughs, colds or other airway nasties to others. All voluntarily as well. Over here, we have some actively changing their shopping habits to be at supermarkets who refuse to enforce such measures, or flaunting themselves on social media doing so. What an absolute shame.

You are in part correct, in some Asian countries people do wear masks, when they have symptoms. But its also worth pointing out that in some of these countries being sick from work is frowned upon, especially as in those countries people work very long hours often away from their home towns & cities. We could have a simpler mitigation by making sure people don't feel compelled to work when they are unwell, and making sure they don't suffer financially.

 

[jtuk]

I don't deny anything, you can check for yourself, none of these countries have eliminated the virus. Go ahead, check using your favoured search engine. Then come back and tell me they have eradicated it. Methinks a little more research, and a whole lot less rhetoric might be useful at this point.

In fairness, New Zealand has such a small population that they could completely bunker up the people actually vulnerable to Covid (which, now we know it is nowhere near as deadly as first thought, is very limited), then encourage mass spread - if we assume one initial case, an R of 3 and an infectious period of 14 days, then it'd fly through the entire population of the country within a month and Covid is eliminated *as a threat*

 

[Enthusiast]

I'm led to believe PHE are very unimpressed with Tesco for basically having dropped it.

I expect they will get over it.

I went in Costco and a large Tesco yesterday and did not see any shoppers without a mask.I have to wear one at work and dont see it as a problem.

You may not see a problem. That demonstrates you have not thought the matter through in the same way as some on here have.

Scotland and Wales appear to have come very close to doing so.

Yesterday Scotland had 27 new confirmed cases out of a total tested of around 3,850 (0.7%). They have 270 people in hospital with Covid, two of whom are in intensive care. I would not say that is very close to elimination. The idea of eliminating the virus is fanciful. It will have to be tolerated until it either disappears or mutates into something else.

 

[Bantamzen]

In fairness, New Zealand has such a small population that they could completely bunker up the people actually vulnerable to Covid (which, now we know it is nowhere near as deadly as first thought, is very limited), then encourage mass spread - if we assume one initial case, an R of 3 and an infectious period of 14 days, then it'd fly through the entire population of the country within a month and Covid is eliminated *as a threat*

And it is entirely possible that it already has. But as studies are starting to show, covid may be passing through our species a lot more prolifically than we first believed, but is passing through most of us unnoticed. That isn't eradication, its quite the opposite. The virus may well be settling in for the long haul. Politicians talk of eradication because it makes good headlines, epidemiologists generally scoff at such notions because they know the reality.

 

[WestCoast]

I think threads like this just show how selfish westerners are and how much of an ‘I’ culture we live in. Compare that to some Asian countries where they have a ‘we’ culture and face masks are worn out of respect for others and not wanting to pass on coughs, colds or other airway nasties to others. All voluntarily as well. Over here, we have some actively changing their shopping habits to be at supermarkets who refuse to enforce such measures, or flaunting themselves on social media doing so. What an absolute shame.

I think many in the Far East remember the SARS outbreak. Having said that, I am not sure how prevalent it is in Mainland China which after all is where most people live in the Far East, compared to say Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea etc where I know it is very common.

I was in Shanghai last year on a work trip and can't recall many wearing masks. In spite of that I was generally impressed at how clean the city seemed, the Metro in particular was very clean. From my understanding the big Chinese cities have adopted a lot of practices from Japan where hygeine is deeply embedded in their society. No doubt that trend won't be halting now!

 

[talldave]

And I don't disagree with that first sentence, however the second I do not. The benefits of mask wearing is still under serious doubt, and their incorrect use could actually be a driving factor in the spread. We somehow managed to lower rates without them right up until the 23rd of this month, so what changed? Was the virus taking it easy on us, or was the mandating of coverings in shops just a political move, to give the impression of something being done? For a government its a simple win-win, it rates stay low masks work, if they go up just blame something else.

If rates go up, the story will be that infection rates would have gone up even faster without masks. Which of course means we have to erase all memory of life before 24th July from our brains (those of us that still have one and are capable of using it).

 

[Bayum]

You are in part correct, in some Asian countries people do wear masks, when they have symptoms. But its also worth pointing out that in some of these countries being sick from work is frowned upon, especially as in those countries people work very long hours often away from their home towns & cities. We could have a simpler mitigation by making sure people don't feel compelled to work when they are unwell, and making sure they don't suffer financially.

But as we now know, wearing masks is only effective to stop the wearer passing something on. Yes, these countries might have strict and deep cultural associations with taking time off work, but you cannot deny that the wearing of masks is a shared culture of keeping each other healthy, rather than our ‘keeping myself healthy’

 

[Enthusiast]

Compare that to some Asian countries where they have a ‘we’ culture and face masks are worn out of respect for others and not wanting to pass on coughs, colds or other airway nasties to others. All voluntarily as well. Over here, we have some actively changing their shopping habits to be at supermarkets who refuse to enforce such measures, or flaunting themselves on social media doing so. What an absolute shame.

Here in the UK many of the population are not of a similar culture. They think things through for themselves, do their own research and make decisions that are best for them. As far as face coverings go I am in no doubt that wearing an ill fitting mask and using it as an "amateur" increases the risk of infection to me as the wearer far more than it lessens the risk for those around me. Sorry, but I am not complying with a practice that increases my risk far more than it decreases that for everybody else and if that makes me a member of the "I" culture then so be it.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I thought that the wearing of masks in Asian countries was because of high pollution levels, not because of "oh I might have a cold"?

Edit: @Enthusiast got there just before me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are in part correct, in some Asian countries people do wear masks, when they have symptoms. But its also worth pointing out that in some of these countries being sick from work is frowned upon, especially as in those countries people work very long hours often away from their home towns & cities. We could have a simpler mitigation by making sure people don't feel compelled to work when they are unwell, and making sure they don't suffer financially.

Yes, I'd agree with that. It might be a good start to make statutory sick pay more like furlough - 80% of full pay for a period of time, say. I can understand why businesses don't want it to be full pay, but it also needs to be liveable.

But as we now know, wearing masks is only effective to stop the wearer passing something on. Yes, these countries might have strict and deep cultural associations with taking time off work, but you cannot deny that the wearing of masks is a shared culture of keeping each other healthy, rather than our ‘keeping myself healthy’

Correct, and we really do need a more collectivist culture in many ways, not only this one.

They think things through for themselves, do their own research and make decisions that are best for them

That of course is called "being selfish" and really isn't a culture I want. Of course there's a variant of it which is even better - people do their reading, realise that a small sacrifice can do good for others, and choose that without needing to be told. Be that disease control, or for instance not driving their car into a city but instead using public transport even if it's a bit less convenient or a bit more expensive.

I thought that the wearing of masks in Asian countries was because of high pollution levels, not because of "oh I might have a cold"?

Edit: @Enthusiast got there just before me!

It's both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that England has different criteria for what it calls a Covid death might have something to do with it - the idea a two week gap in introducing ineffective masks has anything to do with it is risible.

I'm referring to cases, not deaths. England does seem to have very open criteria, namely if you tested positive before you died it counts unless it's glaringly obvious that it wasn't (e.g. a car crash).

 

[jtuk]

And it is entirely possible that it already has. But as studies are starting to show, covid may be passing through our species a lot more prolifically than we first believed, but is passing through most of us unnoticed. That isn't eradication, its quite the opposite.

And if that is the case, then who cares? The sooner that people work out that cases *on their own* are not a thing to be concerned about, it only becomes an issue if said cases are not restricted from entering places with high numbers of people that might be at risk (i.e. by interventions at hospitals and care homes, rather than the entire population), and if there is not sufficient healthcare to handle anyone else that might have complications in the general population.

 

[takno]

But as we now know, wearing masks is only effective to stop the wearer passing something on. Yes, these countries might have strict and deep cultural associations with taking time off work, but you cannot deny that the wearing of masks is a shared culture of keeping each other healthy, rather than our ‘keeping myself healthy’

Obviously the complete lack of any viable evidence that masks do stop the wearer passing anything on invalidates the first half of your point. The second half would be better countered by pointing out that mask-wearing when you know you're sick is a pretty flimsy minimal effort at keeping others healthy. Far better to go with the "selfish western practices" of generally spacing ourselves out better, and staying in more when we're sick.

You're taking inaccurate idealised versions of how other societies function, and using them as a yardstick so that you can criticise us all for somehow not matching up. Seems cheap, self-defeating and faintly racist to me.

 

[Bayum]

Obviously the complete lack of any viable evidence that masks do stop the wearer passing anything on invalidates the first half of your point. The second half would be better countered by pointing out that mask-wearing when you know you're sick is a pretty flimsy minimal effort at keeping others healthy. Far better to go with the "selfish western practices" of generally spacing ourselves out better, and staying in more when we're sick.

You're taking inaccurate idealised versions of how other societies function, and using them as a yardstick so that you can criticise us all for somehow not matching up. Seems cheap, self-defeating and faintly racist to me.

Very quick search brings up a myriad of such studies: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#, is just one of many showing they do work. If they don’t work, then why gave hospital staff been wearing them throughout?

 

[Cowley]

Just a reminder that this is meant to be a face mask thread...

 

[DB]

Very quick search brings up a myriad of such studies: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#, is just one of many showing they do work. If they don’t work, then why gave hospital staff been wearing them throughout?

I take it you haven't actually read that paper?

It looks at four studies in a medical setting, three of which showed a positive impact. It then claims that this demonstrates that it works among the general public, for which the evidence given is completely insufficient.

Masks in hospitals are used against a wide range of pathogens - in situations involving close contact, high risk of infection, and people particularly susceptible. They are also used with strict hygiene controls, and changed every half an hour - and must not be touched while being worn.

In contrast, among the public pretty much none of the above apply, there are no hygiene controls at all and people constantly fiddle with them. Therefore conlusions from a medical setting cannot just be claimed to apply to the general public.

If you think it's 'proven' that they work in public, I suggest that you watch this interview with an Oxford professor who is an expert in this: https://unherd.com/thepost/oxford-epidemiologists-suppression-strategy-is-not-viable/

I've not yet seen any study (and I've read a lot of research papers on it over the past few months) which demonstrates that they work. There is one study from the USA which may show a correltation, but it is too unclear on what other measures were taken, and seems to also show a geographical element, for it to be convincing on its own.

 

[westv]

If they don’t work, then why gave hospital staff been wearing them throughout?

I'm not sure you can compare surgical masks in a clinical environment and Fred Bloggs popping into the local Tesco.

 

[Enthusiast]

That of course is called "being selfish" and really isn't a culture I want.

It's not being selfish at all. It involves placing myself at a far greater risk (and so more likely to need treatment for Covid) whilst the benefits to others are considerably less than that increased risk. If the change in risk was identical I would agree, but they are not.

If they don’t work, then why gave hospital staff been wearing them throughout?

I'm not sure you can compare surgical masks in a clinical environment and Fred Bloggs popping into the local Tesco.

Indeed. See post #306.

 

[Richard Scott]

It's not being selfish at all. It involves placing myself at a far greater risk (and so more likely to need treatment for Covid) whilst the benefits to others are considerably less than that increased risk. If the change in risk was identical I would agree, but they are not.


Indeed. See post #306.

This is the whole mask issue, the assumed benefit is very low if at all and no-one seems to want to discuss the negatives. The uneducated (in terms of knowledge about usefulness of masks and not from school perspective) pro-mask brigade which shout off at others may be in the minority but it's putting some people off going out who can't wear a mask. I'm sorry but not buying the idea that it allows some people to go out with confidence as it stops others going out. A year ago nobody went out with one on (or very few) and seemingly everyone was happy. Now we have something divisive that is upsetting certain people in our nation. We are supposed to be a tolerant nation but afraid this isn't showing at the moment. One of my issues with masks is not being able to see facial expressions, really miss seeing someone smile, can be difference between diffusing a difficult situation and it turning awkward or indeed just makes you feel better when you see someone smile. The other thing that strikes me is all the masked up faces look the same, it's like being in a computer game not dealing with real people. For those calling for permanent mask wearing for what is in essence a very limited reason please consider that some of us like to see others smile and it helps our wellbeing. I'd hate to live in a masked society.

 

[Bantamzen]

But as we now know, wearing masks is only effective to stop the wearer passing something on. Yes, these countries might have strict and deep cultural associations with taking time off work, but you cannot deny that the wearing of masks is a shared culture of keeping each other healthy, rather than our ‘keeping myself healthy’

Except that we don't know that masks keep others healthy, it may even be the case that their misuse could worsen the spread.

 

[Enthusiast]

One of my issues with masks is not being able to see facial expressions, really miss seeing someone smile, can be difference between diffusing a difficult situation and it turning awkward or indeed just makes you feel better when you see someone smile. The other thing that strikes me is all the masked up faces look the same, it's like being in a computer game not dealing with real people. For those calling for permanent mask wearing for what is in essence a very limited reason please consider that some of us like to see others smile and it helps our wellbeing. I'd hate to live in a masked society.

Quite so. I went to a pub/restaurant last Saturday. All the staff were wearing see-through visors and not masks. How much less unpleasant it was! I know the lady manager quite well and congratulated her on the decision. She was quite appreciative. One or two customers had been critical of the practice, but in the main it had been well received. Quite honestly I'm not too fussed about the minimal risk of infection posed by somebody who is serving my food and drink. But the idea of not being able to see their faces during the entire evening (especially when one or two of them are quite tasty young ladies ) is absolutely abhorrent. Sorry, but life has to go on and normalise and it is not normal to parade around a restaurant dressed like a surgeon. Or for that matter like somebody using an angle grinder, but at least I can see their face.

 

[BJames]

I'm not sure you can compare surgical masks in a clinical environment and Fred Bloggs popping into the local Tesco.

Quite. It's important to remember that hospital staff replace their masks each time they take them off as they are single use only - or do not touch them whilst wearing them for an extended period of time. This is just not the same as the general public. Any study that shows they work in hospitals cannot be translated to the general population as most people (I have observed this but so have most others on this thread, as well as my friends and others I have been speaking to) are constantly fiddling with it. I count myself in that category.

 

[yorkie]

To be honest, reading this forum I am surprised at the percentage of users who have a medical reason for not using a mask in comparison to ’normal’ society ...

An interesting observation but can you clarify please; what percentage of forum members are covered by an exemption, and what proportion of society are covered by an exemption?

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting observation but can you clarify please; what percentage of forum members are covered by an exemption, and what proportion of society are covered by an exemption?

Would a quick poll make sense to get a figure for the Forum at least?

 

[yorkie]

Would a quick poll make sense to get a figure for the Forum at least?

Maybe though I'm reluctant for us to have yet another mask thread; it would need to be carefully worded and safeguards put in place to avoid the discussion being yet another iteration of the same arguments that have taken place in other threads

I'm really curious to understand how 45107 knows the answer already though!

 

[westv]

It also has to be remembered that the exemptions don't just cover "medical" reasons.

 

[LAX54]

First time wearing a mask when out for my haircut.

I found it very unpleasant after less than 10 minutes. Fortunately i was in and out in 20. This entire thing is super depressing.

seconded, but have to wear it / them also have to wear at the petrol station, took longer to put on than it did to go in and pay

 

[LAX54]

That's not the case. It's been said on numerous occasions that face coverings are an additional mitigation, not in lieu of any others.

People clearly think otherwise and this is what I think has caused the uptick in cases in Scotland over the past week.

But if you look at pictures posted on the web, showing what wearing ot not wearing, is alledged to do, you can see why many, including me maybe, that SD is not really needed in stores etc, combine the mask, cuts it down 90% (or so it says) and the 'less than 1m for more then 15min' can see where they are coming from