UK face coverings discussion

[Bletchleyite]

So if the person simply answers with "no", what do you then do?

I'd probably say "I guess you're exempt, then, fair enough?" and start walking off.

If the answer wasn't some variation of "yes" or nothing at all, I expect I'd report the matter to the shop staff as I went to pay and leave. I'm not an enforcer, but I would point out an error and would prefer it was pointed out to me as soon as possible if I was to make it, which I may well do at some point until it becomes second nature.

 

[Journeyman]

I think there's a difference between vigilanteism, which isn't acceptable, and "sorry, mate, have you forgotten your mask?" which I think is totally acceptable once some sort of solution for exemptions is provided.

You need to stop banging on about this. No-one wants to wear something that says LOOK AT ME, I'VE GOT AN EMBARRASSING MEDICAL PROBLEM! on it, and they shouldn't be expected to. Our leaders need to be making it very clear that exemptions are deeply personal, and that people should not be challenged or questioned about this.

(Mods - I know "shouting" is disapproved of, but I feel it's important to emphasise how humiliating and embarrassing it would be to have to wear something identifying health issues in public. If I had to do it, I'd probably never go out).

 

[bramling]

I'd probably say "I guess you're exempt, then, fair enough?" and start walking off.

I'd be inclined to respond with "mind your own business". That's neither a yes or a no.

I think it's *extremely* disrespectful to go probing into what may well be others' medical business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You need to stop banging on about this. No-one wants to wear something that says LOOK AT ME, I'VE GOT AN EMBARRASSING MEDICAL PROBLEM!

As there are many bases for exemption that aren't embarrassing (asthma, for example, if a mask affects your breathing adversely), then such a thing would not have that effect at all.

12% of the population have some form of asthma. That's a lot of embarrassed people!

I'd be inclined to respond with "mind your own business". That's neither a yes or a no.

That would trigger me walking away then mentioning to shop staff as I paid for my goods, as it tends to be a response that comes from people who are deliberately being awkward (a bit like the classic "no comment" in a police interview). Of course it's then up to the shop staff what they do or don't do.

I think it's *extremely* disrespectful to go probing into what may well be others' medical business.

The question isn't why they are exempt, just if they are exempt. Indeed it wouldn't even be framed as a question, more a trigger said as a parting shot while walking away - someone who has a guilty conscience would attempt to escalate that, and that's when I would be "triggered" to report the matter to staff. Someone who was actually exempt would mostly just mumble and continue their shopping.

It's like the airport luggage "did you pack your bag yourself" question. Fairly pointless in many ways, but the nominal basis of it is that if you genuinely did you'll just say yes, confidently and clearly, but if you didn't you'll mumble and they will know there is a need to probe further.

 

[farleigh]

As there are many bases for exemption that aren't embarrassing (asthma, for example, if a mask affects your breathing adversely), then such a thing would not have that effect at all.



That would trigger me walking away then mentioning to shop staff as I paid for my goods, as it tends to be a response that comes from people who are deliberately being awkward (a bit like the classic "no comment" in a police interview). Of course it's then up to the shop staff what they do or don't do.

There is no law that you need to wear an exemption 'badge' or carry any documentation hence nobody has any business asking you about it or telling shop staff. That is how the law stands as I understand it.

 

[bramling]

As there are many bases for exemption that aren't embarrassing (asthma, for example, if a mask affects your breathing adversely), then such a thing would not have that effect at all.

Notwithstanding whether people find their medical issues embarrassing, it's totally unfair to expect people to be being questioned. Suppose everyone took your line and questioned others every time they encounter someone with no mask then such people are going to be harassed every time they shop, or forced to wear something which singles them out - which still may not be enough to placate everyone. This stinks of vigilantism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no law that you need to wear an exemption 'badge' or carry any documentation hence nobody has any business asking you about it or telling shop staff. That is how the law stands as I understand it.

I can share whatever concern I wish with shop staff. The subject of the concern doesn't have any right to prevent me from doing that, though the shop staff do have a right to decide it isn't a concern from their perspective and therefore to ignore it. See it, say it, sorted.

 

[Journeyman]

As there are many bases for exemption that aren't embarrassing (asthma, for example, if a mask affects your breathing adversely), then such a thing would not have that effect at all.

You need to stop being the gatekeeper of what health conditions need to be public knowledge and which ones don't. Only the individuals concerned have any right to disclose anything about their health, and you need to keep your nose out of it.

That would trigger me walking away then mentioning to shop staff as I paid for my goods, as it tends to be a response that comes from people who are deliberately being awkward (a bit like the classic "no comment" in a police interview). Of course it's then up to the shop staff what they do or don't do.

You also need to stop acting like it's your responsibility to enforce your own particular interpretation of the rules. Your attitude absolutely stinks, if I'm honest.

 

[bramling]

The question isn't why they are exempt, just if they are exempt. Indeed it wouldn't even be framed as a question, more a trigger said as a parting shot while walking away - someone who has a guilty conscience would attempt to escalate that, and that's when I would be "triggered" to report the matter to staff. Someone who was actually exempt would mostly just mumble and continue their shopping.

Not at all. If you questioned me in that way whilst at work (where I am exempt for reasons of being in execution of duty) then I would quite happily advise you to mind your own business, politely of course. Any further discourse on the matter and you'd be off or out, depending on the situation!

 

[PaulMc7]

The problem is that any reason to be exempt can feel embarrassing to the person with the exemption. Nobody without an exemption gets to decide that. I've known about my Aspergers since I was 3 and I felt embarrassed about it until into my 20s(I'm 26 now) because I wasn't comfortable with being different especially because it's a thing so many people don't understand whatsoever.

Asthma is an exemption but it doesn't help that there's people with asthma out there who are wearing face coverings acting like idiots and claiming that everyone with asthma can wear one just because they can. Only police can enforce this and as far as I'm concerned nobody else has any right to speak to anyone regarding why they don't have their face covered as it's a very personal thing and speaking about anything included in the exemptions is far tougher than you'd ever think

 

[farleigh]

I can share whatever concern I wish with shop staff. The subject of the concern doesn't have any right to prevent me from doing that. See it, say it, sorted.

Yes of course you can but it seems your some of the behaviour you endorse might be interpreted by some as harassment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not at all. If you questioned me in that way whilst at work (where I am exempt for reasons of being in execution of duty) then I would quite happily advise you to mind your own business, politely of course. Any further discourse on the matter and you'd be off or out, depending on the situation!

I would not directly question a member of traincrew in uniform, I would make a formal complaint about them to the TOC if I felt their conduct unacceptable. To be honest, I do find it unacceptable that any traincrew would not be wearing a face covering of some kind whilst in the passenger saloon unless legally exempt, so if I did encounter you doing so (and I believe you've openly stated you would do that) that complaint would indeed be going in.

If you weren't in uniform, beyond the initial "you forgotten your mask, mate?" then I would speak to the guard and express my concern.

 

[Huntergreed]

I would not directly question a member of traincrew in uniform, I would make a formal complaint about them to the TOC if I felt their conduct unacceptable. To be honest, I do find it unacceptable that any traincrew would not be wearing a face covering of some kind whilst in the passenger saloon unless legally exempt, so if I did encounter you doing so (and I believe you've openly stated you would do that) that complaint would indeed be going in.

If you weren't in uniform, beyond the initial "you forgotten your mask, mate?" then I would speak to the guard and express my concern.

The question I want to ask is: Are you simply suggesting what you feel is acceptable for people to do, or are you describing what you do (and have done) in these situations?

 

[Yew]

As there are many bases for exemption that aren't embarrassing (asthma, for example, if a mask affects your breathing adversely), then such a thing would not have that effect at all.

Maybe you wouldn't be, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who are.

 

[bramling]

I would not directly question a member of traincrew in uniform, I would make a formal complaint about them to the TOC if I felt their conduct unacceptable.

You've sidestepped the issue there, as I stated that you would be instructed to mind your own business in a polite way, which as far as I would be concerned should mean the end of the matter.

To be honest, I do find it unacceptable that any traincrew would not be wearing a face covering of some kind whilst in the passenger saloon unless legally exempt,

Er, by the simple fact that they're on duty means they're legally exempt, which as I understand it is the same with shop staff. Whether you find that unacceptable or not isn't really relevant to the situation, though of course you're welcome to express your opinion to the industry if you feel so inclined.

If you weren't in uniform, beyond the initial "you forgotten your mask, mate?" then I would speak to the guard and express my concern.

There won't be a guard!

 

[Journeyman]

The problem is that any reason to be exempt can feel embarrassing to the person with the exemption. Nobody without an exemption gets to decide that. I've known about my Aspergers since I was 3 and I felt embarrassed about it until into my 20s(I'm 26 now) because I wasn't comfortable with being different especially because it's a thing so many people don't understand whatsoever.

Asthma is an exemption but it doesn't help that there's people with asthma out there who are wearing face coverings acting like idiots and claiming that everyone with asthma can wear one just because they can. Only police can enforce this and as far as I'm concerned nobody else has any right to speak to anyone regarding why they don't have their face covered as it's a very personal thing and speaking about anything included in the exemptions is far tougher than you'd ever think

You're absolutely spot on there. I've seen your other posts and I appreciate it's been a long hard slog for you to make progress doing things others take for granted. I hope you're doing alright - I appreciate this has caused you a lot of stress and anxiety.

The thing that absolutely infuriates me is the complete lack of empathy, understanding and respect being shown here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm assuming every single person I see without a mask is exempt for a valid reason, and I don't need to know what that reason is. I know a number of people with complex mental health issues that really struggle at the best of times, and they truly don't need even more obstacles thrown in their way because clueless, crass people think they have a right to take the law into their own hands.

It's been very helpful to us that you've been able to talk about your experiences here, but no way should you be expected to have to explain all this to random strangers on the street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question I want to ask is: Are you simply suggesting what you feel is acceptable for people to do, or are you describing what you do (and have done) in these situations?

I've not been in those situations yet (as I've not been in a shop today), but I would consider the conduct I describe "the right way" to deal with a problem of that nature if one was perturbed by it.

The problem is exemptions, but I think there are cases where it's pretty evident that someone would likely come under one and cases where it is almost certainly not the case. For instance, you see a group of 5 lads in their early 20s tracksuited up not distancing from one another and not wearing masks. Do you think they are *all* likely to be exempt? I very much doubt it even if one is.

You've sidestepped the issue there, as I stated that you would be instructed to mind your own business in a polite way, which as far as I would be concerned should mean the end of the matter.

It'd be the end of it for now, but as I said I would express my views to the TOC on the matter, as unless exempt I believe staff should be donning face coverings (or if necessary instead, face shields) if they enter the passenger compartment unless they would be medically exempt were they a passenger. Part of that is not portraying hypocrisy. Clearly no need to wear one in the cab of course, just as there's no need to wear one in a shop if you're behind a perspex screen, but if I went in a shop and none of the shop-floor staff had them on I'd think "hypocrites", just like the shopkeeper mentioned elsewhere, I forget if it's this thread or another.

 

[Kendalian]

I've not been in those situations yet (as I've not been in a shop today), but I would consider the conduct I describe "the right way" to deal with a problem of that nature if one was perturbed by it.

The problem is exemptions, but I think there are cases where it's pretty evident that someone would likely come under one and cases where it is almost certainly not the case. For instance, you see a group of 5 lads in their early 20s tracksuited up not distancing from one another and not wearing masks. Do you think they are *all* likely to be exempt? I very much doubt it even if one is.

Report it to the police then for what good it will do.

 

[Journeyman]

The problem is exemptions, but I think there are cases where it's pretty evident that someone would likely come under one and cases where it is almost certainly not the case. For instance, you see a group of 5 lads in their early 20s tracksuited up not distancing from one another and not wearing masks. Do you think they are *all* likely to be exempt? I very much doubt it even if one is.

You know what? I don't care. I also don't particularly like getting beaten up, so I'll happily ignore. Ain't my problem.

 

[PaulMc7]

You're absolutely spot on there. I've seen your other posts and I appreciate it's been a long hard slog for you to make progress doing things others take for granted. I hope you're doing alright - I appreciate this has caused you a lot of stress and anxiety.

The thing that absolutely infuriates me is the complete lack of empathy, understanding and respect being shown here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm assuming every single person I see without a mask is exempt for a valid reason, and I don't need to know what that reason is. I know a number of people with complex mental health issues that really struggle at the best of times, and they truly don't need even more obstacles thrown in their way because clueless, crass people think they have a right to take the law into their own hands.

It's been very helpful to us that you've been able to talk about your experiences here, but no way should you be expected to have to explain all this to random strangers on the street.

Yeah it's been tough but I've coped relatively well throughout because of being able to avoid shops and public transport. Glad to be of help because society is so backwards nowadays with understanding issues. It's far harder to speak out about disabilities and mental health issues than a lot think but I'm hoping it becomes easier as time goes on. People also need to understand that the number of people exempt is a sizable chunk especially when mental health issues can be an exemption. In Scotland alone it's estimated that a third of us have experience of mental health issues and that's before you take any other exemptions in. Not sure of the rest of the UK figures but I'd imagine it's the same

 

[bramling]

I believe staff should be donning face coverings

I see.

There seems to be a distinct lack of realisation that others may quite legitimately believe differently on things, however if expressing your beliefs to the TOC, shop, or whatever makes you feel better then go for it.

In all honesty I believe you're totally overstepping the line, and straying well into vigilante territory.

I take it you’ve already shared your beliefs with BTP, as most of them choose to take advantage of their legal exemption when on duty (in my experience)?

 

[Journeyman]

Yeah it's been tough but I've coped relatively well throughout because of being able to avoid shops and public transport. Glad to be of help because society is so backwards nowadays with understanding issues. It's far harder to speak out about disabilities and mental health issues than a lot think but I'm hoping it becomes easier as time goes on. People also need to understand that the number of people exempt is a sizable chunk especially when mental health issues can be an exemption. In Scotland alone it's estimated that a third of us have experience of mental health issues and that's before you take any other exemptions in. Not sure of the rest of the UK figures but I'd imagine it's the same

I know what you mean. I'm very aware that I'm a privileged person who has had a pretty easy life, and it's easy to forget that life is very difficult for a lot of people. The rules on masks have a very negative effect on vulnerable people who now feel that they have to justify themselves to vigilantes, and they're often people who lack the confidence and skills to explain why they're not able to wear masks.

I really, really wish certain people would try harder to understand this.

 

[bussnapperwm]

The problem is that any reason to be exempt can feel embarrassing to the person with the exemption. Nobody without an exemption gets to decide that. I've known about my Aspergers since I was 3 and I felt embarrassed about it until into my 20s(I'm 26 now) because I wasn't comfortable with being different especially because it's a thing so many people don't understand whatsoever.

I know how you feel @PaulMc7. I was diagnosed when I was 9 with Aspergers.

When I got my current job (back in '08), I told my line manager about it, but it took one incident where I had a melt down because of issues in the office which resulted in me nearly being sacked for my manager and their boss to finally learn about it.

 

[PaulMc7]

I know what you mean. I'm very aware that I'm a privileged person who has had a pretty easy life, and it's easy to forget that life is very difficult for a lot of people. The rules on masks have a very negative effect on vulnerable people who now feel that they have to justify themselves to vigilantes, and they're often people who lack the confidence and skills to explain why they're not able to wear masks.

I really, really wish certain people would try harder to understand this.

Fully agree with this. I've not had it great in life but I'd always think of those worse off than me. As far as the mental health issues and my Asperger's I know I'm in the 0.1% who can talk openly about their issues but others definitely can't and we need to normalise that fact and understand them

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all honesty I believe you're totally overstepping the line, and straying well into vigilante territory.

That of course is your opinion which you're entitled to.

For what it's worth, though, and ignoring what I think should be the law but isn't (which we had strayed into a bit), all problems could be avoided by everyone who is required to wear a covering by law doing so in those settings, then there would be no issues because we'd know anyone not wearing one was exempt. It's uncomfortable, but how about just putting up with it for a bit for the greater good?

 

[farleigh]

That of course is your opinion which you're entitled to.

For what it's worth, though, and ignoring what I think should be the law but isn't (which we had strayed into a bit), all problems could be avoided by everyone who is required to wear a covering by law doing so in those settings, then there would be no issues because we'd know anyone not wearing one was exempt. It's uncomfortable, but how about just putting up with it for a bit for the greater good?

Can you describe the greater good?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

It's uncomfortable, but how about just putting up with it for a bit for the greater good?

Greater good being what, exactly?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you describe the greater good?

Reduced COVID-19 cases. Or at least a big experiment to see if that's the effect.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Reduced COVID-19 cases. Or at least a big experiment to see if that's the effect.

The opposite has happened in Scotland where it has been in effect for two weeks. Yes it's too early to draw relevant conclusions, but if England follows suit then there could be a correlation.

 

[bramling]

That of course is your opinion which you're entitled to.

For what it's worth, though, and ignoring what I think should be the law but isn't (which we had strayed into a bit), all problems could be avoided by everyone who is required to wear a covering by law doing so in those settings, then there would be no issues because we'd know anyone not wearing one was exempt. It's uncomfortable, but how about just putting up with it for a bit for the greater good?

No this doesn’t avoid all problems. Many people, myself included, have concerns about embracing a measure where deputy CMOs have recently gone on record saying it would do more harm than good and is “not a good idea”.

You’ve also suggested you would challenge people who are legally exempt, either for medical or other reasons. That’s not avoiding problems, it’s creating them, and it’s *you* doing it.