UK face coverings discussion

[Journeyman]

Forgot entirely, or knew he didn't have it and decided to try his luck anyway, out of interest? It's not clear from that.

I don't think that's even remotely relevant anyway, but it's the first day in England, it's going to take time for people to get used to it. Clearly the vigilante morons are used to it already.

 

[Richard Scott]

Forgot entirely, or knew he didn't have it and decided to try his luck anyway, out of interest? It's not clear from that.

To be honest that shouldn't matter. The response from those others is unacceptable. How do they know he doesn't have an exemption?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that's even remotely relevant anyway, but it's the first day in England, it's going to take time for people to get used to it. Clearly the vigilante morons are used to it already.

It's very relevant, because, unless exempt, if you forgot to have it with you, it's the same as having forgotten your wallet - you don't go in the shop, or you leave as soon as you realise your error.

To be honest that shouldn't matter. The response from those others is unacceptable. How do they know he doesn't have an exemption?

It seems very clear that he didn't have an exemption from the post, and therefore as soon as someone pointed it out he should have dropped his goods off, turned and left the shop immediately, having realised he was committing an offence inadvertently.

I don't support the actions of someone getting abusive over masks. However, if you're not exempt, it wouldn't need to go any further than "where's your mask?", as I'm sure the confrontation started off, before turning tail with "sorry mate I forgot, thanks for pointing it out" and leaving immediately, dropping your basket before the door.

If you are accidentally committing a criminal offence - any criminal offence - and someone points it out, even if they do so impolitely, you stop committing it immediately and retreat with thanks and an apology. You don't escalate a confrontation.

 

[Huntergreed]

OK. So now it begins.

My son is an NHS worker in Sussex. Tonight he went into a Tesco Express in his home town, and he forgot his mask. Inside the store, he was confronted, abused and videoed by another guy and his mate. It got "in-yer-face" confrontational and luckily store staff stepped in to put an end to it. My son has reported it to the police and is awaiting a call back. The store has it on CCTV. He is shaken up, and will not be going into work tomorrow.

I'm just giving you the base facts. Some of you will no doubt support the shaming of my son, others might be more sympathetic over what was a mistake that any of us could make any time.

All I can say is that it confirms my view that I am living in a [expletive deleted] country populated by a [expletive deleted] society. This is what we have become.
Thank you Cressida Dick. Thank you Boris Johnson. I cannot wait to see the back of both of you.

I'm sorry to hear this.

The current climate in this country seems to be that people should be made to feel guilty and worthless if they make a mistake, or are genuinely exempt from conditions way out of their control. Whilst I assume your son learned from this, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that he had to go through this and that he's been (understandably) affected by it.

The mental wellbeing of those who are exempt in particular is going to plummet from this, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some 'exempt' suicides as people in that group are made to feel like the scum of the country, it's so disappointing that this is where we are at in this country and I truly, truly hope this madness stops soon.

 

[Journeyman]

It's very relevant, because, unless exempt, if you forgot to have it with you, it's the same as having forgotten your wallet - you don't go in the shop, or you leave as soon as you realise your error.



It seems very clear that he didn't have an exemption from the post, and therefore as soon as someone pointed it out he should have dropped his goods off, turned and left the shop immediately, having realised he was committing an offence inadvertently.

I don't support the actions of someone getting abusive over masks. However, if you're not exempt, it wouldn't need to go any further than "where's your mask?", as I'm sure the confrontation started off, before turning tail with "sorry mate I forgot, thanks for pointing it out" and leaving immediately, dropping your basket before the door.

Here you go making up rules again. How about you stop trying to justify interference, and do what any decent human being should do? If I see *anyone* not wearing a mask, I won't say anything, I won't do anything, and I won't dwell on it. I'll go about my business, because the only actions I can control are my own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here you go making up rules again. How about you stop trying to justify interference, and do what any decent human being should do? If I see *anyone* not wearing a mask, I won't say anything, I won't do anything, and I won't dwell on it. I'll go about my business, because the only actions I can control are my own.

And that's up to you.

But if I walk into a shop without a mask (I am not validly exempt) and someone says "oi mate, where's your mask" (I would put money on this being how it started, with the possible addition of a profanity or two) I will immediately leave the shop as I have made a mistake which I need to rectify with priority, and go home and get one, because I know it's as legally required at the moment as the money to pay for my goods.

 

[Yew]

It's very relevant, because, unless exempt, if you forgot to have it with you, it's the same as having forgotten your wallet - you don't go in the shop, or you leave as soon as you realise your error.



It seems very clear that he didn't have an exemption from the post, and therefore as soon as someone pointed it out he should have dropped his goods off, turned and left the shop immediately, having realised he was committing an offence inadvertently.

I don't support the actions of someone getting abusive over masks. However, if you're not exempt, it wouldn't need to go any further than "where's your mask?", as I'm sure the confrontation started off, before turning tail with "sorry mate I forgot, thanks for pointing it out" and leaving immediately, dropping your basket before the door.

If you are accidentally committing a criminal offence - any criminal offence - and someone points it out, even if they do so impolitely, you stop committing it immediately and retreat with thanks and an apology. You don't escalate a confrontation.

This post summarises everything that's wrong with the country currently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This post summarises everything that's wrong with the country currently.

What, that people, if correctly told they are committing a criminal offence, don't stop it immediately and apologise? Yes, that's a problem.

It would also be a problem if the response to "I'm exempt mate" wasn't "Oh, sorry". I suspect it may not have been. But this person wasn't exempt, and so should have left the shop as soon as what the other person said caused him to realise his error and not one moment later.

Forget your wallet? Leave the goods and go home. Forget your mask? Leave the goods and go home. As things stand the law is the same, so that is what you must do. It's the law, unless you are validly exempt[1], not a personal choice.

Is it OK if I...no. Can I just...no. It's the law.

[1] I see that Asthma UK are now correctly pointing out that an inhaler isn't a get-out, and that asthma only gives you the exemption if wearing a mask actually causes you breathing difficulties.

 

[Journeyman]

And that's up to you.

But if I walk into a shop without a mask (I am not validly exempt) and someone says "oi mate, where's your mask" (I would put money on this being how it started, with the possible addition of a profanity or two) I will immediately leave the shop as I have made a mistake which I need to rectify with priority, and go home and get one, because I know it's as legally required at the moment as the money to pay for my goods.

I'd probably do the same if I forgot and was challenged, but a lot of people shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Journeyman]

What, that people, if correctly told they are committing a criminal offence, don't stop it immediately and apologise? Yes, that's a problem.

It would also be a problem if the response to "I'm exempt mate" wasn't "Oh, sorry". I suspect it may not have been. But this person wasn't exempt, and so should have left the shop as soon as what the other person said caused him to realise his error and not one moment later.

Forget your wallet? Leave the goods and go home. Forget your mask? Leave the goods and go home. As things stand the law is the same, so that is what you must do. It's the law, unless you are validly exempt[1], not a personal choice.

Is it OK if I...no. Can I just...no. It's the law.

[1] I see that Asthma UK are now correctly pointing out that an inhaler isn't a get-out, and that asthma only gives you the exemption if wearing a mask actually causes you breathing difficulties.

Here you go *yet again* jumping to conclusions, laying down your interpretation of the rules, and failing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

This is a badly imposed law that has a seriously negative effect on a lot of people. They don't need you to self-righteously pontificate on what you *think* happened. You weren't there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a badly imposed law that has a seriously negative effect on a lot of people. They don't need you to self-righteously pontificate on what you *think* happened. You weren't there.

If they don't want it discussed, they should not post it on a discussion forum. Discussion does not have to include agreement with it or sympathy.

 

[Yew]

What, that people, if correctly told they are committing a criminal offence, don't stop it immediately and apologise? Yes, that's a problem.

It would also be a problem if the response to "I'm exempt mate" wasn't "Oh, sorry". I suspect it may not have been. But this person wasn't exempt, and so should have left the shop as soon as what the other person said caused him to realise his error and not one moment later.

Forget your wallet? Leave the goods and go home. Forget your mask? Leave the goods and go home. As things stand the law is the same, so that is what you must do. It's the law, unless you are validly exempt[1], not a personal choice.

Is it OK if I...no. Can I just...no. It's the law.

[1] I see that Asthma UK are now correctly pointing out that an inhaler isn't a get-out, and that asthma only gives you the exemption if wearing a mask actually causes you breathing difficulties.

No, that such a personal, normal thing is a criminal offence. Self entitled, screaming groups can force the hand of politicians into a non evidence based policy with no parliamentary oversight. That we're sacrificing the livetimes and livelihoods of millions of people away with no end in sight, for a few half dead pensioners who are so frail that they can die from a virus that is so severe that 80% of people don't have any symptoms. That we've thrown a thousand years of culture out the window because some totalitarian communists tried a policy that has never been shown to work.


This insanity has gone on for long enough, it's time to return to reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, that such a personal, normal thing is a criminal offence. Self entitled, screaming groups can force the hand of politicians into a non evidence based policy with no parliamentary oversight. That we're sacrificing the livetimes and livelihoods of millions of people away with no end in sight, for a few half dead pensioners who are so frail that they can die from a virus that is so severe that 80% of people don't have any symptoms. That we've thrown a thousand years of culture out the window because some totalitarian communists tried a policy that has never been shown to work.

This insanity has gone on for long enough, it's time to return to reality.

You're entitled to that view, but in the meantime it's a criminal offence not to wear a face covering in a shop unless validly exempt. Validly exempt does not include disliking the policy.

 

[Journeyman]

If they don't want it discussed, they should not post it on a discussion forum. Discussion does not have to include agreement with it or sympathy.

Why don't you ask for some more details, instead of just assuming things? I read it as a situation that got out of hand very quickly, with the person who forgot about the mask not given a reasonable opportunity to sort things. I could be wrong as well, but whoever is right here, it ain't the one throwing the abuse around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why don't you ask for some more details, instead of just assuming things? I read it as a situation that got out of hand very quickly, with the person who forgot about the mask not given a reasonable opportunity to sort things. I could be wrong as well, but whoever is right here, it ain't the one throwing the abuse around.

I think the person throwing abuse is clearly in the wrong, but it's possible that the person under discussion was as well, which is why my first reply was to ask for clarification of what he had done - had he genuinely forgotten about the whole thing, or had he forgotten the mask but knowingly and wilfully entered the shop without it, as that would dictate how much in the wrong he was. If it was the latter and he escalated it rather than walking away then this was very, very foolish.

 

[Journeyman]

I think the person throwing abuse is clearly in the wrong, but it's possible that the person under discussion was as well, which is why my first reply was to ask for clarification of what he had done - had he genuinely forgotten about the whole thing, or had he forgotten the mask but knowingly and wilfully entered the shop without it, as that would dictate how much in the wrong he was. If it was the latter and he escalated it rather than walking away then this was very, very foolish.

How about you just stop judging people?

 

[Yew]

You're entitled to that view, but in the meantime it's a criminal offence not to wear a face covering in a shop unless validly exempt. Validly exempt does not include disliking the policy.

When normal human life is illegal, it's time to change those who make the laws.

 

[Kendalian]

I think the person throwing abuse is clearly in the wrong, but it's possible that the person under discussion was as well, which is why my first reply was to ask for clarification of what he had done - had he genuinely forgotten about the whole thing, or had he forgotten the mask but knowingly and wilfully entered the shop without it, as that would dictate how much in the wrong he was. If it was the latter and he escalated it rather than walking away then this was very, very foolish.

Suggest you read your previous post and rethink!

 

[Ostrich]

I think the person throwing abuse is clearly in the wrong, but it's possible that the person under discussion was as well, which is why my first reply was to ask for clarification of what he had done - had he genuinely forgotten about the whole thing, or had he forgotten the mask but knowingly and wilfully entered the shop without it, as that would dictate how much in the wrong he was. If it was the latter and he escalated it rather than walking away then this was very, very foolish.

Well, I wasn't there, and I've only heard his side of the story, Bletchleyite, but knowing him, my reading would be genuine forgetfulness - after all, he's wearing PPE every day in his NHS job, and he's not the sort of lad to knowingly flout the law. I can't comment on exactly how the situation developed to the point where people had to intervene, but he certainly wasn't the one who started it, and the fact that one of the guys was videoing it indicates to me that the pair were seeking a confrontation.

I know some will be for and some will be against shaming - but I sincerely hope those who are happy to shame don't make any inadvertent mistakes themselves .... 'nuff said.

 

[bramling]

You're entitled to that view, but in the meantime it's a criminal offence not to wear a face covering in a shop unless validly exempt. Validly exempt does not include disliking the policy.

I'm just waiting for someone to start on me whilst on public transport, which will guarantee that I'll be off work for a few months in consequence.

 

[bramling]

How about you just stop judging people?

Agreed. All of a sudden we have this judging going on, to be fair not so much here where most of the discussion has been fairly sensible even where people disagree. It really has unleashed the worst in people, which was sadly entirely predictable, and has been inflamed by the likes of Johnson and Dick. To me that's unforgivable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about you just stop judging people?

The post was clearly made as an anti-mask post (well, it was that or it was a Facebook style "u ok hun" with only sympathy an acceptable reply, but you never see that here so I very much doubt that). As someone who is pro-mask, I've got every right to challenge it being used in that way.

I am very much aware of the problems surrounding exemptions, and I'm not sure the right way to deal with this, but I am leaning towards the idea that the shop staff would provide lanyards or similar on request, as then it's clear what's going on[1]. But once that is sorted out I have no problem with people challenging people for committing a criminal offence, and if they do the correct answer is to immediately put that right, regardless of how polite or otherwise they were.

Whether you like something being a criminal offence or not doesn't have any bearing on whether it is or not.

[1] Yes, that's an inconvenience. But so's wearing a mask. I don't find them comfortable (so that's inconvenient to me), but I support the idea as a means of reducing spread. Most people are not brazen enough to take such a lanyard from a member of staff if they aren't actually exempt.

 

[farleigh]

It certainly seems to have been a divisive decision to impose masks. It seems to have absolutely polarised opinion. I have been surprised at how readily people are following the government and in some cases asking them to go further. I am sure that these people genuinely believe that they are doing the right thing and being community minded.

I do object though when people start shaming others and telling them how to behave. It has been one of the most disappointing aspects of the recent period that a number of people want to behave in this way. It is not community minded - it is bullying

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

You should not have to go around your own business advertising that you have a disability preventing you from wearing a face covering. Perhaps if people just minded their own business and took people's word for it, life would be a bit more straight forward.

But no, it's not that simple, is it?!

 

[Journeyman]

The post was clearly made as an anti-mask post (well, it was that or it was a Facebook style "u ok hun" with only sympathy an acceptable reply, but you never see that here so I very much doubt that). As someone who is pro-mask, I've got every right to challenge it being used in that way.

I am very much aware of the problems surrounding exemptions, and I'm not sure the right way to deal with this, but I am leaning towards the idea that the shop staff would provide lanyards or similar on request, as then it's clear what's going on[1]. But once that is sorted out I have no problem with people challenging people for committing a criminal offence, and if they do the correct answer is to immediately put that right, regardless of how polite or otherwise they were.

[1] Yes, that's an inconvenience. But so's wearing a mask. I don't find them comfortable (so that's inconvenient to me), but I support the idea as a means of reducing spread.

But there's no evidence it does reduce the spread, and plenty of evidence it encourages people to be obnoxious dicks, causing serious trouble.

 

[bramling]

The post was clearly made as an anti-mask post (well, it was that or it was a Facebook style "u ok hun" with only sympathy an acceptable reply, but you never see that here so I very much doubt that). As someone who is pro-mask, I've got every right to challenge it being used in that way.

I am very much aware of the problems surrounding exemptions, and I'm not sure the right way to deal with this, but I am leaning towards the idea that the shop staff would provide lanyards or similar on request, as then it's clear what's going on[1]. But once that is sorted out I have no problem with people challenging people for committing a criminal offence, and if they do the correct answer is to immediately put that right, regardless of how polite or otherwise they were.

So, in other words, you're quite happy with vigilantism - even where in this case we have vigilantism mixed with ignorance -- ignorance towards those who have legitimate reasons to be exempt. I totally resent the idea of expecting people to go round wearing something special to denote themselves simply to mitigate against the ignorance of others, and if people can't (or, as seems to be the case for some people, won't) accept the concept of exemptions then what difference is a lanyard going to make?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, I wasn't there, and I've only heard his side of the story, Bletchleyite, but knowing him, my reading would be genuine forgetfulness - after all, he's wearing PPE every day in his NHS job, and he's not the sort of lad to knowingly flout the law. I can't comment on exactly how the situation developed to the point where people had to intervene, but he certainly wasn't the one who started it, and the fact that one of the guys was videoing it indicates to me that the pair were seeking a confrontation.

Thanks for your clarification. On day one it's understandable that someone might make a mistake, but to be honest if I'd done the same thing today and someone had pointed it out (however abusively they did so) I'd have been out of the shop like a shot with my tail between my legs (possibly at worst throwing a comment like "there was no need to be rude"), and unless they had followed me outside the shop (unlikely as they no doubt want to buy whatever they're buying, not faff about chasing someone out of a shop who stops committing an offence the second they pass the door) there'd have been no opportunity for conflict, just mild embarrassment at my error needing to be pointed out.

I expect he was probably tired after work so a reaction is perhaps understandable, that said.

So, in other words, you're quite happy with vigilantism - even where in this case we have vigilantism mixed with ignorance, in this case ignorance towards those who have legitimate reasons to be exempt. I totally resent the idea of expecting people to go round wearing something special to denote themselves simply to mitigate against the ignorance of others, and if people can't (or, as seems to be the case for some people, won't) accept the concept of exemptions then what difference is a lanyard going to make?

I think there's a difference between vigilanteism, which isn't acceptable, and "sorry, mate, have you forgotten your mask?" which I think is totally acceptable once some sort of solution for exemptions is provided. This case clearly went the wrong side of the line, but equally I don't believe people who are not exempt should be able to simply decide not to wear one wholly unchallenged.

As a comparison, I might well say something like "sorry, mate, are you going to pay for that" if I saw someone walking out of a shop having seen them pick up goods and then not pay for them. Many wouldn't to be fair.

 

[bramling]

It is not community minded - it is bullying

In a lot of cases that's *exactly* what it is. Some people think they can get away with this at the moment due to the mass hysteria that is gripping the population.

 

[bramling]

I think there's a difference between vigilanteism, which isn't acceptable, and "sorry, mate, have you forgotten your mask?" which I think is totally acceptable once some sort of solution for exemptions is provided. This case clearly went the wrong side of the line, but equally I don't believe people who are not exempt should be able to simply decide not to wear one wholly unchallenged.

So if the person simply answers with "no", what do you then do?

 

[Kendalian]

Law enforcement is the responsibility of the police, for very good reasons