UK face coverings discussion

[Journeyman]

It's a stupid situation and it really sucks but being awkward to staff doesn't make it easier for anyone.

Absolutely. It's the sort of thing that can stupidly escalate and result in assaults and abuse. I really can't be bothered with that.

 

[Huntergreed]

I strongly advise you all to listen to the first 30 minutes of Jeremy Vine's debate show on Radio 2 from today. A lot of mixed views on masks, you could tell the BBC are predominantly pro-mask, but it's interesting to hear some views. There was one shopkeeper saying he won't be enforcing it, one saying he'll refuse service (or something like that!), a gentleman who believes that we're completely overreacting who didn't receive a great reception from Jeremy (because of his views), and a woman who thinks masks should be mandated everywhere outdoors. It's a good listen and offers a more rounded view of what the general public think.

 

[MontyMinerWA]

Not using one of the main forms of communication to your friends would be a pretty good start down the road to suicide..

WhatsApp is often less harmful to someone's mental health.

 

[Enthusiast]

Not using one of the main forms of communication to your friends would be a pretty good start down the road to suicide..

I don't use any of the popular "social media" media (in fact, from what I've heard, "ant-social media" may sometimes be appropriate). If I want to contact my friends I either phone them or perhaps (if I'm not too concerned whether they receive it or not) send a text or e-mail. I'm not in the least suicidal.

I do have some sympathy for the shopkeeper here - it's not their fault that this law has been brought it.

I do - up to a point. However, if they think the legislation is crass they have no need to insist it is followed. Quite why this particular shopkeeper took it upon himself to do so is anybody's guess. If it was indeed for his own protection then he has a bit of a cheek. I have to agree that the risk of him contracting the virus and passing it on is almost certainly greater than that of most of his customers.

 

[bramling]

OK playing devil's advocate a bit here because I think there's a lot to be said for the idea that using masks wrongly is a bad thing, but...

Much has been made of the lack of concrete evidence as to the gains from face coverings.

So far as I know we also don't know to what extent transmission from touching infected surfaces is actually a concern - there's a big difference between detecting bits of coronavirus RNA on a surface and there being something on it which will infect you.

So I make the claim that we don't really know if the potential risks of fiddling with a mask outweigh the potential gains from wearing one.

Or can someone convincingly argue otherwise?

Only that the former is generally accepted fact whereas the latter is an idea that has only floated in the last couple of months. So it seems perverse to do something which has the accepted risk of doing “more harm than good” on the basis of an unproven potential benefit, especially when we’re being asked to do it in places where there doesn’t appear to be evidence of them being a transmission hotspot (shops) and not required in places where there apparently seems to be greater risk (pubs and restaurants).

 

[bramling]

Absolutely. It's the sort of thing that can stupidly escalate and result in assaults and abuse. I really can't be bothered with that.

I would agree, however I do sympathise with the OP as it does seem like the shopkeeper’s attitude was unhelpful.

Ultimately no one should be in this position, but due to Boris’s trademark attention to detail here we are, in the same way the residents of Bournemouth were thrown under the proverbial bus.

 

[45107]

I would agree, however I do sympathise with the OP as it does seem like the shopkeeper’s attitude was unhelpful.

How ?
The shop keeper was doing as required by following the law.

 

[DB]

How ?
The shop keeper was doing as required by following the law.

Not technically true - the government has made it clear that the police are the ones expected to enforce the policy - the shopkeeper could choose to say nothing without contravening anything. If you read the actual legislation, shop staff are not included in the list of those who can carry out enforcement.

 

[bramling]

How ?
The shop keeper was doing as required by following the law.

Which could be met by, for example, displaying a sign reminding people of their obligations - and in particular mentioning that exemptions apply.

 

[Huntergreed]

Has anyone experienced, witnessed or heard about any of the 'shaming' endorsed by the nation's top police officer?

 

[Smidster]

Obviously it is your decision not to shop at somewhere trying to enforce the law but what were you hoping to get out of the confrontation? Were you expecting the shopkeeper would just let you carry on as normal or what?

Ultimately the law is what it is and if you do not have an exemption then you should follow it - what makes you above the law?

Frankly your behaviour risks making life more difficult for those who are exempt.

Do you follow the same approach to other laws you don't like?

 

[Cowley]

I strongly advise you all to listen to the first 30 minutes of Jeremy Vine's debate show on Radio 2 from today. A lot of mixed views on masks, you could tell the BBC are predominantly pro-mask, but it's interesting to hear some views. There was one shopkeeper saying he won't be enforcing it, one saying he'll refuse service (or something like that!), a gentleman who believes that we're completely overreacting who didn't receive a great reception from Jeremy (because of his views), and a woman who thinks masks should be mandated everywhere outdoors. It's a good listen and offers a more rounded view of what the general public think.

I’m really not sure that it does, because virtually every ‘debate’ on the Jeremy Vine show involves pretty much the same amount of people arguing on each side of a point of view for BBC balance. No matter how silly one side of the argument is...
I’ll give it a listen on your recommendation but I’d be amazed if there was anything said that wasn’t entirely predictable due to the callers being screened for their views to make sure they equal out on each side of whatever the argument is that day (caller 1 - Rational but pro mask, caller 2 - Irrational and anti mask, caller 3 - Rational and anti mask, caller 4 - Irrational and pro mask. Now time for some music! Here’s The Smiths and ‘Panic’ etc etc...).

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I’m really not sure that it does, because virtually every ‘debate’ on the Jeremy Vine show involves pretty much the same amount of people arguing on each side of a point of view for BBC balance. No matter how silly one side of the argument is...
I’ll give it a listen on your recommendation but I’d be amazed if there was anything said that wasn’t entirely predictable due to the callers being screened for their views to make sure they equal out on each side of whatever the argument is that day (caller 1 - Rational but pro mask, caller 2 - Irrational and anti mask, caller 3 - Rational and anti mask, caller 4 - Irrational and pro mask. Now time for some music! Here’s The Smiths and ‘Panic’ etc etc...).

I've just listened to it, you've hit the nail on the head. And it's hardly objective as Vine gives comments to the anti-maskers based on his own opinion.

 

[adc82140]

Anyone serving me in a shop wearing gloves gets a polite "could you kindly change your gloves and sanitise your hands before handling my purchases". It's all down to education, or lack of, about their use.

 

[Journeyman]

Anyone serving me in a shop wearing gloves gets a polite "could you kindly change your gloves and sanitise your hands before handling my purchases". It's all down to education, or lack of, about their use.

Unless you're literally about to stick your fingers in your mouth, does it even matter?

 

[Scott1]

Anyone serving me in a shop wearing gloves gets a polite "could you kindly change your gloves and sanitise your hands before handling my purchases". It's all down to education, or lack of, about their use.

Out of curiosity do you ask someone without gloves to sanitise their hands too?

 

[DB]

This is interesting:

Why we aren't wearing masks in Sweden

Anders Tegnell, architect of a unique response to the pandemic, defends his approach

unherd.com

“One reason is that the evidence base for using masks in society is still very weak. Even if more and more countries are now enforcing them in different ways … we haven’t seen any new evidence coming up, which is a little bit surprising. The other reason is that everything tells us that keeping social distance is a much better way of controlling this disease than putting masks on people. We are worried (and we get at least tales from other countries) that people put on masks and then they believe they can go around in society being close to each other, even going around in society being sick. And that, in our view, would definitely produce higher spread than we have right now.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

Local shop this afternoon that I’ve used and spent money in consistently (most days) throughout this:

Owner (as I walked in): please can you put on a mask
Me: I will do if you do too
Owner: I don’t have to
Me: You come into contact with far more people than I do every day, so you not wearing a mask is a bigger risk to me than I am to you if I don’t wear a mask
Owner: You are required to wear a mask
Me: I am not required to spend my money here. I would willingly wear a mask if you do too, but it seems like you won’t. So this is the last time I will come in here.

And I won’t go back - ever. Sorry shopkeepers, but it works both ways if it’s related to your health and the health of your customers.

Was the shopkeeper subject to other protection e.g. behind a screen?

 

[Darandio]

Was the shopkeeper subject to other protection e.g. behind a screen?

No Perspex screen.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

This is interesting:

Why we aren't wearing masks in Sweden

Anders Tegnell, architect of a unique response to the pandemic, defends his approach

unherd.com

"We are worried (and we get at least tales from other countries) that people put on masks and then they believe they can go around in society being close to each other, even going around in society being sick. And that, in our view, would definitely produce higher spread than we have right now.”

I agree with this part, and have seen it first-hand myself in Scotland where masks have been mandatory in shops for a fortnight now - distancing is practically non-existant. This could be the cause of the slight uptick in cases over the past week or so (disregarding the call centre debacle).

 

[adc82140]

Out of curiosity do you ask someone without gloves to sanitise their hands too?

By and large non glove wearing people in shops sanitise without being prompted, but yes I do ask politely.

 

[DB]

Oxford Epidemiologists not convinced by the masks argument, either:

Oxford epidemiologists: suppression strategy is not viable

Yesterday we published a short interview with Professor Carl Heneghan about his extraordinary finding that the Public Health England daily death totals included anyone who has ever tested positive for Covid-19 (even if they recovered completely). But we wanted to learn more about the current...

unherd.com

• Tom Jefferson: “Aside from people who are exposed on the frontlines, there is no evidence that masks make any difference, but what’s even more extraordinary is the uncertainty: we don’t know if these things make any difference…. We should have done randomised control trials in February, March and April but not anymore because viral circulation is low and we will need huge number of enrolees to show whether there was any difference”.
• Carl Heneghan: “By all means people can wear masks but they can’t say it’s an evidence-based decision… there is a real separation between an evidence-based decision and the opaque term that ‘we are being led by the science’, which isn’t the evidence

CH: “The benefits of the current strategy are outweighed by the harms…When it comes to suppression, only the virus will have a determination in that. If you follow the New Zealand policy of suppressing it to zero and locking down the country forever, then you’re going to have a problem… This virus is so out there now, I cannot see a strategy that makes suppression the viable option. The strategy right now should be how we learn to live with this virus”

 

[jtuk]

Several masks lying on the pavement walking back from the pub. If I trip over one I can sue Hancock, right?

 

[Huntergreed]

Several masks lying on the pavement walking back from the pub. If I trip over one I can sue Hancock, right?

Someone tried to sue him over introducing all of the restrictions and it was quietly “dropped by the side” as I understand it, so you can try, but I doubt you’ll get far sadly!

 

[Bletchleyite]

No Perspex screen

Missed that. That seems rather poor and it sounds like the owner is a hypocrite and not deserving of custom.

 

[High Dyke]

The BBC are reporting this:

The chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales, John Apter, has urged shops to refuse entry to anyone not wearing a face covering in England.
He said: "I would urge retail outlets to play their part in making the rules crystal clear; if you are not wearing a face covering then you are not coming in.

No mention of exemptions of course. Yet another reason exempted people like myself may feel excluded from shops completely.

And in the next breath I'm sure the same gentleman also commented the other week that he didn't expect police officers to pander to the public regarding enforcement of the new rule.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Whilst at a WMR station earlier, I had one of the high vis brigade demand several times I wear a face cover, even though i showed him an exemption card (I have autism and I can't wear a mask as I can't cope with one on. I can't even cope with a scarf round my face in winter.) I almost was in tears over his attitude.

You give a bloke a high vis and they think they are God.

 

[Huntergreed]

I see Scotrail have re-liveried 2 HST’s to have facemasks (and the best part? They’re around the chin only )

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/news/if-scotrail-trains-can-cover-their-face-so-can-you

I do find the article title rather patronising as well, I feel so bad for those with genuine exemptions, they’re being made to feel like they’re an unwanted and unimportant part of society and I don’t think it’s acceptable whatsoever.

 

[Journeyman]

Several masks lying on the pavement walking back from the pub. If I trip over one I can sue Hancock, right?

Where I am there's dropped masks all over the place. On the pavement, in bushes, on benches, you name it. It's creating an ecological disaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where I am there's dropped masks all over the place. On the pavement, in bushes, on benches, you name it. It's creating an ecological disaster.

There really should be a push for the use of (3 layer) washable fabric masks. They look less threatening and dystopian too.