Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

[anthony263]

It seems bus operators are meeting the Welsh Government tomorrow and we can expect an announcement on Wednesday.

https://twitter.com/nat_group/status/1285141986127872003?s=21

News to us drivers although let's hope social distancing is reduced or scrapped

 

[sftfan1909]

I travelled home to Barry about an hour ago. A big queue of lots of people (and groups) all going towards Barry Island and loudly discussing their plans for the beach. Had to wait for 40 minutes before a train came with enough space. I didn't see any BTP or revenue staff, just a few security people watching the queue and asking if people had tickets, but not checking.

 

[Cardiff123]

Is 2m social distancing actually the law in Wales?

Yes it is and employers must take every measure necessary to comply.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think they are on dodgy ground; I've already heard a report of a disabled person, who is totally reliant on public transport, being denied travel to see a friend. I believe this is likely to be a breach of the law on equality grounds.

Is 2m social distancing actually the law in Wales?

It also makes absolutely no sense to mandate both masks and 2m social distancing; this is not done anywhere else. I saw David Horne tweeted an image of a TGV with every seat taken the other day.

This madness has to stop.

Yes it is the law, subject to a 'reasonable measures' caveat

New regulations, the Health Protection (Coronavirus restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations, were made on 10 July 2020. Part 3 of the regulations imposes obligations on persons responsible for premises open to the public, or for work being carried out at any premises, for the purpose of minimising risk of exposure to coronavirus at the premises.

Regulation 12 requires:

1. all reasonable measures to be taken to ensure that a distance of 2 metres is maintained between persons on the premises
2. any other reasonable measures to be taken – for example to limit close face to face interaction and maintain hygiene, and
3. information to be provided to those entering or working at premises about how to minimise risk of exposure to coronavirus.

Regulation 13 provides for guidance to be issued about the practical application of the requirements imposed by regulation 12, and those subject to the requirements must have regard to that guidance.

For these purposes premises includes vehicles used as taxis and for public transport.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) | Sub-topic | GOV.WALES

Advice and support on coronavirus

gov.wales

 

[mmh]

Is 2m social distancing actually the law in Wales?

No, and yes. There's no law enforcing it on the individual, but it is in law (at 2m) that employers must take reasonable steps to allow their employees to distance, which is where the closure of local door operated stations has come from.

There's also 2m in guidance for retailers and hospitality, sadly.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes it is and employers must take every measure necessary to comply.

Interesting.

Vehicles originally weren't included in the legislation, but are now - including taxis.

I think you have misquoted the regulations though - employers are required to take all reasonable measures, not all necessary measures - quite a difference.

The guidance for public transport says "However, where it is difficult or not possible to maintain 2 metres distancing on public transport consideration can be given to reducing physical distancing provided that adequate additional mitigations are put in place to avoid the transmission of the virus." so it's not black and white."

It's quite an interesting document, including the new guidance that public transport operators should ban mobile phone use, running for buses, all food and drink consumption on board unless for medical reasons, make all trains "booked seats only" and instruct passengers to travel in "relative silence".

Edited to add: And I've just seen this "Enhance “Travel Safer” messages to “Work Remotely” where possible "

I.e. they seem to be saying that they want to increase their efforts to keep people off public transport.

It's a shame that coronavirus spreads so much more effectively in Wales than elsewhere.

 

[AdamWW]

I don't like the suggstion that they can refuse to sell return tickets on a given route. I suppose increasing prices is a way to reduce demand.

 

[carlberry]

It's quite an interesting document, including the new guidance that public transport operators should ban mobile phone use, running for buses, all food and drink consumption on board unless for medical reasons, make all trains "booked seats only" and instruct passengers to travel in "relative silence".

Edited to add: And I've just seen this "Enhance “Travel Safer” messages to “Work Remotely” where possible "

I.e. they seem to be saying that they want to increase their efforts to keep people off public transport.

It's a shame that coronavirus spreads so much more effectively in Wales than elsewhere.

They are just suggestions for public transport operators so they can ignore the more stupid/hard to implement ones.
I still don't understand why running for a bus isn't allowed, however running in any other circumstance (for a train, taxi or just running) is. However it isn't a risk in England anyway.

 

[AdamWW]

They are just suggestions for public transport operators so they can ignore the more stupid/hard to implement ones.
I still don't understand why running for a bus isn't allowed, however running in any other circumstance (for a train, taxi or just running) is. However it isn't a risk in England anyway.

They can, but that doesn't mean they will.

TFW Rail seem to be enthusiastically pushing the government line and attempting to refuse as many passengers as they possibly can.

It would be quite nice if instead of making it sound as if families trying to have a day out are committing a near criminal offence, they showed some understanding that it's not very nice to be told you can't have any days out for the forseeable future while anyone with a car can do what they want.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting.

Vehicles originally weren't included in the legislation, but are now - including taxis.

I think you have misquoted the regulations though - employers are required to take all reasonable measures, not all necessary measures - quite a difference.

The guidance for public transport says "However, where it is difficult or not possible to maintain 2 metres distancing on public transport consideration can be given to reducing physical distancing provided that adequate additional mitigations are put in place to avoid the transmission of the virus." so it's not black and white."

It's quite an interesting document, including the new guidance that public transport operators should ban mobile phone use, running for buses, all food and drink consumption on board unless for medical reasons, make all trains "booked seats only" and instruct passengers to travel in "relative silence".

Edited to add: And I've just seen this "Enhance “Travel Safer” messages to “Work Remotely” where possible "

I.e. they seem to be saying that they want to increase their efforts to keep people off public transport.

It's a shame that coronavirus spreads so much more effectively in Wales than elsewhere.

Thanks, it's good to get an informed view

My view on TfW and the Welsh Government is probably not publishable here.

 

[Dai Corner]

They can, but that doesn't mean they will.

TFW Rail seem to be enthusiastically pushing the government line and attempting to refuse as many passengers as they possibly can.

It would be quite nice if instead of making it sound as if families trying to have a day out are committing a near criminal offence, they showed some understanding that it's not very nice to be told you can't have any days out for the forseeable future while anyone with a car can do what they want.

At the time writing, TfW Journeycheck is reporting every train heading towards Barry as 'full and standing from Queen Street'; even the 1532 from Pontypridd which hasn't departed yet! Nothing about travel being refused.

 

[yorkie]

I don't like the suggstion that they can refuse to sell return tickets on a given route. I suppose increasing prices is a way to reduce demand.

The only way to do this is to make the trains reservation compulsory.

They cannot otherwise stop third party retailers issuing tickets.

 

[Huntergreed]

I must admit, living in Scotland I thought we were taking an approach that was too cautious compared to England, but Wales seem to really, really taking the mick.

TfW seem hellbent on destroying any future customer-base they may have by telling their passengers to practically **** off and running a model railway. Since May, this has been questionable, and right now it's simply not acceptable in my view. It's discrimination against those who do not own cars or are not able to drive. It's completely unacceptable in my view for anyone to be refused travel on the grounds that their journey is not 'essential' and some of the stories that I've heard of passengers being refused travel are quite frankly disgusting.

I can only hope that as of tomorrow with this 'meeting', things start to change, but I certainly can't say I feel keen giving my money to TfW anytime in the future given how they've acted during the pandemic.

 

[Cardiff123]

As I keep saying, all TfW are doing is following orders given to them by Welsh Govt. I hope and expect things to change next week when wearing face coverings/masks on public transport in Wales becomes compulsory. This should've happened sooner, but we are where we are.

 

[AdamWW]

I must admit, living in Scotland I thought we were taking an approach that was too cautious compared to England, but Wales seem to really, really taking the mick.

TfW seem hellbent on destroying any future customer-base they may have by telling their passengers to practically **** off and running a model railway. Since May, this has been questionable, and right now it's simply not acceptable in my view. It's discrimination against those who do not own cars or are not able to drive. It's completely unacceptable in my view for anyone to be refused travel on the grounds that their journey is not 'essential' and some of the stories that I've heard of passengers being refused travel are quite frankly disgusting.

I can only hope that as of tomorrow with this 'meeting', things start to change, but I certainly can't say I feel keen giving my money to TfW anytime in the future given how they've acted during the pandemic.

I can't see what the aim of the aggressive communications is. And from the messaging today, it seems that even someone daring to use a train to go to work is being unreasonable and risking people's lives if they aren't a "key" or "essential" worker.

And as for the pompousness of "Your travel status will be subject to live and ongoing review..." Words fail me.

Fortunately I was allowed on a train today to travel to my work (essential from my point of view even if not theirs) and it would have been nice not to have seen the guard and driver chatting on the platform <1 m apart.

 

[AdamWW]

As I keep saying, all TfW are doing is following orders given to them by Welsh Govt. I hope and expect things to change next week when wearing face coverings/masks on public transport in Wales becomes compulsory. This should've happened sooner, but we are where we are.

Do you actually know that the government has told them to go for an aggressive messaging campaign and to treat their former (but perhaps not future) customers like dirt?

Are they banned from saying something like:
"We realise that many people rely on our services for leisure travel and are greateful for their custom in the past. Unfortunately at the moment we cannot acommodate leisure passengers and regretfully we have to insist you stay away. We appreciate how hard it must be for those with no other means of transport available to be unable to take advantage of the good weather and enjoy a day out, and we look forward to welcoming you back on board as soon as government guidelines permit us to do so"?

Of course I don't believe that a blanket ban on leisure travel is required, but that's another matter.

As for the change when masks become compulsory - it would be nice but what makes you think anything will change?

 

[mmh]

There's lots of pontificating going on about what may be happening, may be possible and who's told who to say and do what.

What I can share is my experience of trains in North Wales. TFW trains have a vast number of seats marked out of use, to the point where only around 20% are "available." I quote available because the signage says "households" may sit together. Some aisle seats are available. There's a higher visible staff presence at staffed stations, where ticket offices have had their hours severely reduced. BTP are more visible than usual. I have had on-platform ticket checks at an unbarriered station, this is so rare I have never seen it before.

What I haven't seen though is anyone being questioned or refused travel. The BTP were boasting of doing so in the early days of the travel restrictions (since lifted), I've not seen this for some months.

Regardless of what should or shouldn't be happening, nobody is going to actively encourage train travel while its capacity is being kept so artificially low. There have been minor mitigations - an improving of the timetable and lengthening of trains - but until this extreme version of distancing stops (and I think it should) the deterring messages are pretty much inevitable. Perhaps things will change when mask wearing on trains comes in, but conversely that will make me personally less likely to use trains.

 

[AdamWW]

Regardless of what should or shouldn't be happening, nobody is going to actively encourage train travel while its capacity is being kept so artificially low. There have been minor mitigations - an improving of the timetable and lengthening of trains - but until this extreme version of distancing stops (and I think it should) the deterring messages are pretty much inevitable. Perhaps things will change when mask wearing on trains comes in, but conversely that will make me personally less likely to use trains.

Well there's a difference between not actively encouraging and aggressively discouraging.

And in any case the demand isn't evenly spread. Given that pre-Covid there were trains during the day that ran near empty, I find it very very hard to believe that every single service in Wales would be swamped if TFW weren't being so aggressive in their messaging towards would-be passengers. Clearly a blanket ban is much easier than anything more nuanced, but doesn't a taxpayer funded operator have some kind of moral justification to actually let people use their services?

As for seats in/out of use, I think the only aisle seats I've seen "in use" on TFW Rail round here (South Wales) has been where someone has obviously removed a 'tabard' which should have been there.

And the only exception for households I've seen has been on lifts. If you take the signage literally, a family of 4 all have to sit on a train spaced 2 m apart. (And benches on stations have boards blocking off the centre, so again a family can't all sit together even though it would be OK).

In any case, while the 2 m rule applies to train capacity, in practice it very clearly doesn't apply to platform staff and train crew who can stand chatting to each other as close as they feel like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the only exception for households I've seen has been on lifts. If you take the signage literally, a family of 4 all have to sit on a train spaced 2 m apart.

With a train being about 2.8m wide, if you have people in the aisle seats 2m isn't maintained and there's no distancing at all from someone walking down the aisle. So yes, if that's the rule even a family should not occupy both seats in a pair, rather they should occupy a sequence of consecutive window seats.

 

[AdamWW]

With a train being about 2.8m wide, if you have people in the aisle seats 2m isn't maintained and there's no distancing at all from someone walking down the aisle. So yes, if that's the rule even a family should not occupy both seats in a pair, rather they should occupy a sequence of consecutive window seats.

Well with people in window seats 2 m isn't maintained either for someone walking down the aisle.

And anyway, even assuming that sitting in aisle seats is a step too far, taking the signage literally means they can't even do that but have to space out on alternate rows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well with people in window seats 2 m isn't maintained either for someone walking down the aisle.

Though on the principle that 2m for 15 minutes or 1m for less is what you're avoiding, it does fit with that to use only window seats.

 

[AdamWW]

Though on the principle that 2m for 15 minutes or 1m for less is what you're avoiding, it does fit with that to use only window seats.

Agreed but I think you'd also get that with both seats on one side occupied by members of the same household.

 

[Belperpete]

Well with people in window seats 2 m isn't maintained either for someone walking down the aisle.

And anyway, even assuming that sitting in aisle seats is a step too far, taking the signage literally means they can't even do that but have to space out on alternate rows.

The tabbards that I saw today say (in very small type) that family groups are allowed to sit together - I will post a picture later on if I get time. The guards were making announcements that people must only sit in window seats, not in aisle seats.

 

[Cardiff123]

If the Welsh Govt is meeting with bus operators and TfW Rail this week, expect an announcement at the now twice weekly (Tuesdays & Thursdays) Welsh Govt Covid TV briefing on Thursday.

 

[PHILIPE]

From a TFW Twitter reply:-

Our trains are for essential travel only and we strongly discourage non essential travel. This will help us keep Wales safe

That seems to imply that this is the only reason for running trains at all.

 

[AdamWW]

From a TFW Twitter reply:-



That seems to imply that this is the only reason for running trains at all.

That does seem to be the line they are taking.

With essential travel meaning "key workers" going to work, not just someone who can't do their job from home.

 

[AdamWW]

It's reported here that the rail industry is now trying to encourage people to use trains.

However according to the article the TFW Rail view on use of their services in England is: " “As a company based in Wales,” the train operator says, “we will continue to follow Welsh government guidelines”.

I can see the difficulty in having rules change during a journey, and GWR seem to be getting away without being downright unpleasant to their (would-be) passengers in Wales so it works both ways, but still...

 

[carlberry]

From a TFW Twitter reply:-

Our trains are for essential travel only and we strongly discourage non essential travel. This will help us keep Wales safe

Because it's well known that Covid only travels in trains and having more people driving cars around makes everybody safer! To be fair somebody is sitting in an office somewhere having to reply to their Twitter feed knowing how crap it all sounds but still have to follow the party line!

 

[carlberry]

It's reported here that the rail industry is now trying to encourage people to use trains.

However according to the article the TFW Rail view on use of their services in England is: " “As a company based in Wales,” the train operator says, “we will continue to follow Welsh government guidelines”.

I can see the difficulty in having rules change during a journey, and GWR seem to be getting away without being downright unpleasant to their (would-be) passengers in Wales so it works both ways, but still...

If they're providing a service wholly in England then they have to abide by English laws, Welsh laws, or guidelines, are not going to make any difference.

 

[AdamWW]

If they're providing a service wholly in England then they have to abide by English laws, Welsh laws, or guidelines, are not going to make any difference.

They have to abide by English laws, certainly, and they do (e.g. regarding face coverings being compulsory).

But no matter where a TFW Rail train is, the Welsh Government presumably is calling the shots given they are paying for the whole operation so if they want TFW to do everything they can to force people off their trains in England they probably have to do so.

I do think it's a rather grey ares what the situation is regarding guidance, either in this case or overall.

E.g. when the Prime Minister of the UK talks about laws which don't apply in Wales, no matter what he says the Welsh law applies in Wales.
But if he says "I want everyone back at work now" and it's just guidance, it's not so clear to me that the First Minister saying "But I want you to stay at home" over-rides that, unless they pass a law enforcing it.