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Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

What is your view on wearing face masks in shops?


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Smidster

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What happens when a relative is taken to hospital? Do they refuse to visit, or argue the toss with hospital staff? Or do they just mask-up and get on with it, because hospitals are somehow different and where masks - useless elsewhere - miraculously become effective?

A hospital is undoubtedly a completely different environment to the local Tesco.

By definition you are going into a place where there are people who are unwell and potentiality infectious or much more at risk if you have something

In addition if you are visiting someone then you are hoping to spend a long period of time with someone who is sick

In other words it is about risk management - in a hospital, and other enclosed environments, masks are a very sensible and proportional response.

Will they do any *harm* ? Probably not (though I don't think it helps the economy) but I would be pleasantly surprised if it does much good to infection rates.
 
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43066

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These people who won’t wear masks because they don’t like them, they want more evidence of efficacy, and anyway there’s nothing in it for them:

What happens when a relative is taken to hospital? Do they refuse to visit, or argue the toss with hospital staff? Or do they just mask-up and get on with it, because hospitals are somehow different and where masks - useless elsewhere - miraculously become effective?

There is a known benefit to wearing properly fitted surgical masks in hospitals, where you’re likely to be around people with compromised immune systems, masks are disposed of after the correct period of time etc. That’s why medical staff have worn masks since time immemorial.

That’s very different from “face coverings” in everyday settings, which are not properly fitted or worn correctly in many cases. There is little to no evidence these measures are effective, however they are unpleasant, inconvenient and create an environment that will put people off travelling.

If Boris Johnson told you to carry a crucifix around to ward of the virus would you do it? No evidence that it works but it “might help”. The current madness on the transport network, shortly being extended to shops, is no different.
 

VauxhallandI

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But the “just in case” might not keep your parents alive (directly anyway) the chances of meeting someone who is transmitting the virus in a shop is so, so low it’s practically negligible. There’s been no spikes to suggest that shops cause significant spread, and we’ve coped fine with shopping without masks through the peak, where the chance of catching it in a shop was much, much higher.


“Might” being the operative word.

The bottom line is that it’s an easy thing to do that might help keep someone’s loved one alive at very little inconvenience. Everything else is superfluous chat and tells me all I need to know.

The blitz spirit only stretches as far as the bottom of a pint of lager but not as far as a mask for ten minutes.

Good luck to you all and I hope fate shows you mercy.
 

Huntergreed

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“Might” being the operative word.

The bottom line is that it’s an easy thing to do that might help keep someone’s loved one alive at very little inconvenience. Everything else is superfluous chat and tells me all I need to know.

The blitz spirit only stretches as far as the bottom of a pint of lager but not as far as a mask for ten minutes.

Good luck to you all and I hope fate shows you mercy.
Would you like to weld everyone inside their homes until a vaccine? That “might” help too.

The point I’m trying to make is that this isn’t just a minor inconvenience, it makes daily life considerably less comfortable and pleasant for many. It also makes those with genuine exemptions afraid to go shopping or on public transport, where they may either have to reveal very personal information about their exemption or face abuse or even a fixed penalty.

This is absolutely not just a “minor inconvenience”, it’s quite major for many people, and the fact it’s been passed through Parliament without so much as a word of opposition from either side of the dispatch box is worrying.
 

Richard Scott

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“Might” being the operative word.

The bottom line is that it’s an easy thing to do that might help keep someone’s loved one alive at very little inconvenience. Everything else is superfluous chat and tells me all I need to know.

The blitz spirit only stretches as far as the bottom of a pint of lager but not as far as a mask for ten minutes.

Good luck to you all and I hope fate shows you mercy.
If we all stop driving we may well save some lives too, shall we? In actual fact there will be more evidence for that than facemasks. If infection rates were high then I'd accept it but not for the one in 50000 chance or less.
 

John Luxton

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I've already seen an independent shop with a written sign that effectively said "everyone welcome, we don't mind whether you have a mask or not" (but in fruitier language). I hope people power can lead to the adoption of a symbol/sign that shops can use to indicate that they welcome everyone.

Keep Britain Free movement is has produced downloadable posters and flyers for shops wishing to welcome everyone. https://www.keepbritainfree.com/resources
 

Huntergreed

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Keep Britain Free movement is has produced downloadable posters and flyers for shops wishing to welcome everyone. https://www.keepbritainfree.com/resources
This isn’t a movement I’ve come across before, but I must admit I totally agree with their views and their approach. I don’t want the government holding my hand, telling me what I must and mustn’t do, I want to make decisions for myself and accept the risks and consequences of these. I’m very much in support of this and I hope to see it grow in the future.
 

Yew

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These people who won’t wear masks because they don’t like them, they want more evidence of efficacy, and anyway there’s nothing in it for them:

What happens when a relative is taken to hospital? Do they refuse to visit, or argue the toss with hospital staff? Or do they just mask-up and get on with it, because hospitals are somehow different and where masks - useless elsewhere - miraculously become effective?
Last time I checked, going to the supermarket didn't involve spending long periods of time around critically ill people.
 

Huntergreed

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An interesting piece from Sky News:

Coronavirus: Anti-mask activists protest against order to wear face coverings

Demonstrators claim an order to wear masks from Friday is "absolutely ludicrous and does not make scientific sense".


They say they are not "anti-masks" but "pro-choice", and their choice is not to wear a mask.

Come Friday, it will be mandatory to wear a face mask or covering in shops and supermarkets in England as part of public health policy to tackle COVID-19. Those who do not could be fined up to £100.


But the 100 or so people who gathered in Hyde Park on Sunday view the Coronavirus legislation as a crackdown on our civil liberties.

None wore masks and there was no attempt to maintain social distancing. Instead people hugged for photos in front of placards willing others to "spread love not fear".

(Source:https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...against-order-to-wear-face-coverings-12032097)

It appears that we’re not the only ones that have had enough of all this. I don’t agree with all of the messaging these people have been giving out (Scrap 5G for instance), but it’s good to see thay it’s no longer just the lockdown enthusiasts that are being vocal and that there are people out there that, like us, won’t just accept restrictions on our freedom without solid scientific evidence.
 

John Luxton

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This isn’t a movement I’ve come across before, but I must admit I totally agree with their views and their approach. I don’t want the government holding my hand, telling me what I must and mustn’t do, I want to make decisions for myself and accept the risks and consequences of these. I’m very much in support of this and I hope to see it grow in the future.

There are a lot of people out there opposed to facemasks, lock down etc.

After a couple of weeks of despair and falling out with friends early in the Lockdown - I started thinking am I the only one who is worried more about business, the economy, peoples mental health and untreated other conditions. I was led to believe my attitude was selfish by people I knew.

I then went looking for groups and found 2 mainly UK based ones on Facebook and it was from there I found a link to Simon Dolan who also posts to Twitter. He is the businessman who took the government to court over the lockdown - but got very little if any coverage by the BBC. Unfortunately is case was thrown out but he is appealing it.

More business people need to back him and come out and openly support him.

John
 

John Luxton

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An interesting piece from Sky News:

(Source:https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...against-order-to-wear-face-coverings-12032097)

It appears that we’re not the only ones that have had enough of all this. I don’t agree with all of the messaging these people have been giving out (Scrap 5G for instance), but it’s good to see thay it’s no longer just the lockdown enthusiasts that are being vocal and that there are people out there that, like us, won’t just accept restrictions on our freedom without solid scientific evidence.

This was well publicised on Facebook but I wish some protestors would stop mixing in the 5G and other conspiracy theories into the pot.
There are all sorts of conspiracy theories out there from Bill Gates, to a planned New World Order which this supposed to be the intention of the world's politicians.
Some of the ideas are so loopy they undermine the anti mask / anti lockdown movement which should just focus on:

Individual freedom
Impact on business the economy and jobs
Mental and physical heal problems caused by the lockdown, collapse of businesses loss of jobs
Possible suicides as a result
Other health conditions side lined because of the focus on lockdown.

All the conspiracy theories should be put aside.
 

NorthOxonian

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This was well publicised on Facebook but I wish some protestors would stop mixing in the 5G and other conspiracy theories into the pot.
There are all sorts of conspiracy theories out there from Bill Gates, to a planned New World Order which this supposed to be the intention of the world's politicians.
Some of the ideas are so loopy they undermine the anti mask / anti lockdown movement which should just focus on:

Individual freedom
Impact on business the economy and jobs
Mental and physical heal problems caused by the lockdown, collapse of businesses loss of jobs
Possible suicides as a result
Other health conditions side lined because of the focus on lockdown.

All the conspiracy theories should be put aside.

The worst part for me, and the reason I could never support such movements, is the anti-vaxxer element. Even Simon Dolan himself openly spreads anti-vax content. Realistically, a vaccine is the best way out of this. I can't understand the logic of someone not wanting social distancing and masks anywhere, but then rejecting out of hand a solution which makes all of that unnecessary!

However, this is getting away from the argument about masks in shops, which I've resigned myself to. There's no point opposing these measures, as long as the government keeps the virus as its first priority (instead of people's mental health or the economy), then we can expect ever more restrictive measures. I think the next push will be making masks mandatory outdoors everywhere in places under local lockdown.
 

duncanp

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After a couple of weeks of despair and falling out with friends early in the Lockdown - I started thinking am I the only one who is worried more about business, the economy, peoples mental health and untreated other conditions. I was led to believe my attitude was selfish by people I knew.

You should show this article to any locktivists you know.


More than 200,000 people could die from the impact of lockdown and protecting the NHS, an official government report shows.
As national restrictions were imposed, experts from the Department of Health, the Office of National Statistics (ONS), the government’s Actuary Department and the Home Office forecast the collateral damage from delays to healthcare and the effects of recession arising from the pandemic response.
It estimated that in a reasonable worst case scenario, around 50,000 people would die from coronavirus in the first six months of the pandemic, with mitigation measures in place.
But in the report published in April they calculated that up to 25,000 could die from delays to treatment in the same period and a further 185,000 in the medium to long term - amounting to nearly one million years of life lost.
It comes amid debate over the easing of lockdown restrictions, with some arguing it is both too early to lift the measures and that they should have been imposed earlier, while other politicians have questioned whether the cure is worse than the disease.

The Prime Minister has stressed his desire to avoid a return to national lockdown.
In an interview in The Telegraph, Boris Johnson likened the measures to a nuclear deterrent, and said he did not want to impose blanket restrictions again, or think it would be necessary.
The UK's National Statistician, Prof Sir Ian Diamond also said on Sunday that there had been no uptick in cases since lockdown measures had been eased but warned the nation would need to be vigilant come the autumn.
Professor Chris Whitty, the Chief Medical Officer (CMO), and Sir Patrick Vallance, the government’s chief scientific advisor (GSCA) have both expressed concern that the damage from lockdown could be severe.
The report came to light after Sir Patrick told MPs at the Science and Technology Select Committee last week that calculations had been made to predict the number of deaths caused by the effects of lockdown, which was announced on March 23.

The report produced in the following weeks warned there could be 500 more suicides during the first wave, and between 600 and 12,000 more deaths per year resulting from a recession which had a significant impact on GDP.
They also forecast around 20 more deaths this year through domestic violence, and an increase in the number of accidents at home - in the ‘low tens.’ In total, under a worst case scenario, around quarter of a million people would die because of the pandemic response.
The figures were based on 75 per cent of elective care being cancelled over six months without significant reprioritisation when things returned to normal.
The number of elective hospital appointments dropped to around a quarter of usual levels in March and April and had only recovered to around half by the beginning of July.
Charities have increasingly warned that delaying diagnosis, pausing surgery and postponing treatment is a ‘ticking time bomb’ which will cause long-term harm.

Figures released by Cancer Research UK today show that as of May 30, there were more than 180,000 people in England waiting for an endoscopy - a rise of 44 per cent from the same time in 2019.
And around 2.3 million fewer tests that help diagnose cancer have taken place since lockdown compared to the same time last year, and 51 per cent more people are waiting for colonoscopies.
Michelle Mitchell, Cancer Research UK’s chief executive, said: “Covid-19 has had a devastating impact on cancer patients and services across the UK.
“In the early weeks of lockdown urgent referrals plummeted, screening programmes were paused, surgeries were cancelled, clinical trials were put on hold, and existing health inequalities were exacerbated.
“It’s now more crucial than ever that the Government works closely with the NHS to ensure it has the staff and equipment it needs to clear the mounting backlog and get services back on track before this situation gets even worse – especially in the event of a second wave.”
The report points out that nearly 500,000 people would have died from coronavirus if the virus had been allowed to run through the population unchecked. And there would have been more than a million non-Covid deaths resulting from missed treatment if the health service had been overwhelmed in dealing with the pandemic.
 

MikeWM

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The worst part for me, and the reason I could never support such movements, is the anti-vaxxer element. Even Simon Dolan himself openly spreads anti-vax content.

I think it is sensible to distinguish those people opposed entirely to vaccination, and those who think that it is wise to be very wary of a vaccine that is rushed and inadequately tested, especially if it turns out to be mandatory, or effectively so. I'm very much in the latter camp (and I suspect Simon Dolan is too). The swine flu vaccine, and the various issues it caused, should show that this isn't entirely a theoretical position.

Also, and I know this is rather a rabbit hole, I'm somewhat perturbed by the mechanism by which many (not all) modern day vaccines are manufactured.
 

BJames

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I think it is sensible to distinguish those people opposed entirely to vaccination, and those who think that it is wise to be very wary of a vaccine that is rushed and inadequately tested, especially if it turns out to be mandatory, or effectively so. I'm very much in the latter camp (and I suspect Simon Dolan is too). The swine flu vaccine, and the various issues it caused, should show that this isn't entirely a theoretical position.

Also, and I know this is rather a rabbit hole, I'm somewhat perturbed by the mechanism by which many (not all) modern day vaccines are manufactured.
Although this is stretching the topic of the thread somewhat, I would put myself here too, especially since there are past examples of vaccines that are not safe. I thoroughly disagree with anti-vaxxers who are against vaccines with years and years of proven safety, as they always just cite the debunked theory of vaccines increasing the risk of autism in young children. Naturally I'm keen to keep the period of social distancing and face covering usage as short as possible, as I'm sure everyone is, but this doesn't mean getting a vaccine out to the general population months before it's ready. I seem to remember back in May we were told we should find out by late June if the Oxford vaccine is successful, and that we will have millions of doses manufactured at-risk. This is fine really - much better to produce at-risk and spend longer testing, than to cut testing short because manufacturing needs to start.

That said though, candidates such as the Imperial College vaccine actually use self-amplifying RNA which is touted as a revolutionary concept that should improve response times to new viruses while still remaining a very safe method. It is looking incredibly likely from the amount of trials going on across the world that we will have a successful vaccine candidate and probably sooner than anticipated (possibly multiple, which is what we really need).
 

BJames

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On topic though, I went clothes shopping today, taking advantage of the few days left before we have to wear masks. Nobody was wearing masks. I will not be going clothes shopping again when we have to wear masks, I can think of nothing worse than having to go round hot shops with a mask on. I will be taking stock of anything else I need over the next couple of days and completing my shopping activities, and from then it's online until masks aren't needed again.
 

talldave

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This was well publicised on Facebook but I wish some protestors would stop mixing in the 5G and other conspiracy theories into the pot.
There are all sorts of conspiracy theories out there from Bill Gates, to a planned New World Order which this supposed to be the intention of the world's politicians.
Some of the ideas are so loopy they undermine the anti mask / anti lockdown movement which should just focus on:
I totally agree. I wish both KBF and StandUpX campaigns would just focus on masks and drop the conspiracy theories. I've pointed out to StandUpX the hypocrisy of live streaming events using the very GSM networks they are apparently against.

On the shop signage front, whilst the KBF stuff is useful it's too wordy. I'd like a symbol that becomes as ubiquitous as the rainbow.
 

johntea

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The only reason I went shopping today was for a pair of AirPods Pro, which I didn't mind paying £220 for but finding a store with that price with stock didn't happen

Came home, found them online for £199

High Street 0 Online 1...again

It will certainly be a miserable experience especially from next week, I actually was put off even walking into shops because most seem to have a staff member just stood at the door now and I don't knoe ehy but it just kills the mood for having a browse in a shop
 

MikeWM

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I totally agree. I wish both KBF and StandUpX campaigns would just focus on masks and drop the conspiracy theories.

I think here you have people trying to make sense of what are, on the face of it, totally illogical and damaging decisions made by those in charge.

It is somewhat natural to try to assume there is actually some underlying reason for peoples actions; at some level, the most outlandish conspiracy theories are more reassuring than thinking those in charge have just lost all sense of reality, because if you think you 'understand' the agenda it is easier to fight than simple craziness.

Eg. to try to slightly keep on topic, masks in shops. It makes absolutely no sense to do this now, so a rational mind, assuming those telling us to do it also have rational minds, end up constructing a narrative as to why it is 'really' being done.

Unfortunately the result can be alienating people who would support the specific cause, because the 'narrative' is too outlandish for them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Eg. to try to slightly keep on topic, masks in shops. It makes absolutely no sense to do this now

In your opinion. An opinion I believe to be incorrect.

That it should have been done 4 months ago is NOT a reason not to start now. If an error is made, it is near enough always best to correct it as soon as possible even if it makes you look a bit silly.
 

talldave

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Whilst we can't go back and run the last 4 months again with masks in shops, we have followed government guidelines and achieved their objective of "controlling the virus" (whatever that is actually meant to mean). Every measurable metric has dropped and positive tests are hitting zero on more days than they're not in most areas.

So I'm with @MikeWM, it makes no sense to add masks to the mix now, particularly when there's no explanation of what the requirement will achieve. And with no objective set, we can't ever meet it.
 

Yew

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In your opinion. An opinion I believe to be incorrect.

That it should have been done 4 months ago is NOT a reason not to start now. If an error is made, it is near enough always best to correct it as soon as possible even if it makes you look a bit silly.

I feel however, that if masks had been mandated in shops four months ago, that would have been lifted now?
 

43066

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In your opinion. An opinion I believe to be incorrect.

And that’s what’s so wrong with this whole thing. It’s all about opinions and beliefs rather than fact.

This is why it’s so wrong that it should be made mandatory - if people want to muzzle themselves because they believe it’s the right thing to do, so be it, but I’m not going to be doing it it until there’s real, objective evidence explaining why.
 
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Yew

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I really doubt it.
I suppose that underlying the premise that they were introduced back in march, would be some realistic scientific evidence that they did anything, so it's a liile bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy
 

westv

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I feel however, that if masks had been mandated in shops four months ago, that would have been lifted now?
Be prepared for the areas covered by the "mask rule" to expand rather than contract. :'(
 

43066

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I suppose that underlying the premise that they were introduced back in march, would be some realistic scientific evidence that they did anything, so it's a liile bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy

Indeed. And absolutely nothing has changed in that respect. Very obviously the government is bringing them in now because it believes they provide “reassurance”.
 
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DB

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Indeed. And absolutely nothing has changed in that respect. Very obviously the government is bringing them in now because it believes they provide “reassurance”.

But are not being honest about this, and claiming that there is "growing evidence" that they are effective. As anyone who has tried to find this growing evidence will know, it's strangely elusive!
 
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