BBC News: Rail passengers 'shun confusing ticket machines'

[Greenback]

Spot on again mate!

TVM's can be useful for people who are making straight forward, simple journeys. They can save people from having to queue up at a ticket window, but they should be used to supplement human ticket facilities rather then, as is currently the case, as an excuse to reduce ticket office hours or withdraw them completely.

As has already been said, they cannot ask questions to establish people's needs, they can't issue tickets from other stations, they don't seem able to issue rovers and rangers, they can't sell future dated or advance purchase tickets, they can't sell plusbus tickets, they don't accept rail vouchers, cheques or transport tokes. They can't issue longer season tickets, can't replace a defective season ticket, can't accept a refund application, can't issue Sail Rail tickets, can't issue railcards - in fact they can't do many of the things an office can.

On top of this they seldom make the cheapest fare obvious, they are difficult to read in sunlight, often refuse your money

The fact that people don't like using machines and prefer the human contact is self evident. No way should people be forced to use the wretched things when they don't want to!

ATOC are bieng ridiculously complacent if they think that a 30% dissatisfaction rating is in any way acceptable.

 

[Bill Badger]

We will also ensure that decisions on revenue protection (e.g. including the operation of Penalty Fare schemes) take proper account of queuing times at stations. The more seriously train companies take revenue protection, the more important it is that passengers are given reasonable opportunity to purchase tickets before they board the train.

I really hope that this conclusion from the report is taken forward as it is at the centre of most of the threads in this Section of the Forum

 

[scotsman]

I pretty much always buy from a human!
Because:

1 - My station ticket office shuts around 11.30, or earlier at weekends
2 - The TVM (like all ScotRail TVMs) at my station doesn't have my railcard discount available
3 - Even if it were available, it still only takes cards - I prefer cash myself

 

[Oswyntail]

The main problems have been mentioned already, and they are polar opposites. On one side people say how complex the fares structure is, and how people not so familiar with technology won't know how to use them. Yet on the other side people are complaining they don't do fare splitting or let you choose a different origin station. How on earth would yoy encompass all of this into a user-friendly with people who have no knowledge and also super useful for those who know fares and ticketing inside out? That's quite impossible.

Concept-wise, quite simple. All it needs is proper analysis and design - not some creaky, off-the-shelf "solution" that is not based on proper requirements. Look at the best shopping websites, where you can do simple searches - equivalent of "Day return to Leeds" - but have a button that takes you to more complex searches - the splitting scenarios. In other words, create the system around what the customer needs, rather than what the service provider finds cheapest.

 

[jon0844]

TVM's can be useful for people who are making straight forward, simple journeys. They can save people from having to queue up at a ticket window, but they should be used to supplement human ticket facilities rather then, as is currently the case, as an excuse to reduce ticket office hours or withdraw them completely.

Yes, rather like the quick ticket machines at many tube stations. A lot of people do just want to buy a London Travelcard all-zones to travel right away. Nice and simple. Doable now, and just as doable even with a modified and improved TVM for eveything else.

As has already been said, they cannot ask questions to establish people's needs, they can't issue tickets from other stations, they don't seem able to issue rovers and rangers, they can't sell future dated or advance purchase tickets, they can't sell plusbus tickets, they don't accept rail vouchers, cheques or transport tokes. They can't issue longer season tickets, can't replace a defective season ticket, can't accept a refund application, can't issue Sail Rail tickets, can't issue railcards - in fact they can't do many of the things an office can.

On top of this they seldom make the cheapest fare obvious, they are difficult to read in sunlight, often refuse your money

The fact that people don't like using machines and prefer the human contact is self evident. No way should people be forced to use the wretched things when they don't want to!

ATOC are bieng ridiculously complacent if they think that a 30% dissatisfaction rating is in any way acceptable.

Thank you so much for your extremely detailed explanation of what they can't do. Perhaps someone should collate the best parts of this thread and compile a report to send to a rail magazine, or the BBC, to counter the comments made by ATOC.

And I'd still like to see someone work out the numbers of unhappy people based on ATOCs own figures of 70/30%. Based on the usage of the railway, even 1% dissatisfaction would be significant - let alone 30%! I don't think ATOC has even realised that they've just admitted there is such a big problem!

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I don;t have anything against TVM's in themselves, they can do serve a very useful purpose for many people (perhaps even 70%!)

What I do bject to is the way TOC's likeSWT seek to triumphantly announce they are wonderful creations that will allow them to remove/reduce staffing at numerous locations and times when the fact is that they are far more limited than a ticket window!

They then have the cheek to introduce penalty fares!

Finally, of course, there's the fact that they refuse to lsiten to their customers, employees and everyone else who recognises the limitations of these machines, and flout the PF rules in any way that they see fit!

 

[90019]

How on earth would yoy encompass all of this into a user-friendly with people who have no knowledge and also super useful for those who know fares and ticketing inside out? That's quite impossible.

Here's a novel idea; Employ a well trained person and knowledgable to sell people the right tickets for their journey.

 

[MikeWh]

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies pointed out that Passenger Focus's own figures showed last month that - from a survey of more than 30,000 rail users - seven out of 10 were satisfied with ticket-buying facilities at stations.

"This suggests that most people use ticket machines with no problem whatsoever," he added.

Am I the only person wondering whether ticket buying facilities includes the ticket office as well as the machines? That could distort the survey outcome either way.

Also, thanks for mentioning the sun problem. At Crayford we have one machine which is outside the ticket office. It is almost completely unusable on a sunny day and difficult to use on many other days. TOCs really need to pay more attention to this problem when deciding where to site machines. Even I struggle to make a standard ticket purchase which I'm very familiar with when the sun is out.

Also, there's another big problem with Southeastern TVMs in the London area. They can't sell most railcard tickets for journeys within the Oyster area. Even on a Saturday or Sunday the options to use family, yp, senior etc cards is blanked out because the ticket type is anytime which might be used during peak time. They've known about the problem since January and it's still not fixed.

 

[jon0844]

The sun isn't the only problem with outdoor machines. Rain can stop the touchscreens working properly, with certain areas that won't respond - but not enough for the machine to go out of order.

And, I forgot to mention in my list another obvious one; the machine simply not working at all - either taking money/cards or simply having run out of ticket stock.

I've seen TVMs with no ticket stock on a Friday afternoon, so what good would they be for the people going out on a Friday night?

 

[Wyvern]

I am lucky in that my journeys are usually straightforward and I can research them beforehand on the net.

Even so I have no doubt I shall be caught out sooner or later by something obscure and be confronted by an abusive rpi.

 

[90019]

Am I the only person wondering whether ticket buying facilities includes the ticket office as well as the machines? That could distort the survey outcome either way.

It will include both, if it didn't they would say ticket machines both times.

 

[mumrar]

Concept-wise, quite simple. All it needs is proper analysis and design - not some creaky, off-the-shelf "solution" that is not based on proper requirements. Look at the best shopping websites, where you can do simple searches - equivalent of "Day return to Leeds" - but have a button that takes you to more complex searches - the splitting scenarios. In other words, create the system around what the customer needs, rather than what the service provider finds cheapest.

Yes, but people browse websites and do multiple searches at their own leisure in their own home, it's hardly comparable to a queue at a booking office machine wanting to travel quite soon. I'm sure you'd be happy queuing behind them when your train leaves in 4 minutes.

 

[Lampshade]

Just out of curiosity I wonder how many of the 70% of those passengers ATOC quoted as being satisfied would still have been satisfied if they were able to reduce the cost of their travel by talking to someone at the ticket window. Not saying all or even most of them could have reduced their travel costs but I'm sure a few of them could.

Incidentally the list of stations included in the queue length survey is here

No surprise that the worst offenders are SWT stations

 

[Oswyntail]

Yes, but people browse websites and do multiple searches at their own leisure in their own home, it's hardly comparable to a queue at a booking office machine wanting to travel quite soon. I'm sure you'd be happy queuing behind them when your train leaves in 4 minutes.

So you have more than one machine, some of which are the full-fat complex ones, offering a full range of facilities; others offer only the basic subset. Much like on London Underground. But that is simply a requirement, and can be incorporated into the overall design, along with usage statistics, cost etc. And, part of the design set has to be a consideration of on-train facilities and proper fare simplification.
The purpose of selling tickets is to get people on trains. Too often one gets the impression from the ticketing side of the industry that the purpose is to do away with inconvenient things like customers (and rail is not alone in that).

 

[jon0844]

People already do take a lot of time as it is - which is annoying (if it would mean missing a train) but understandable - because it's very easy to make a mistake and then have to start over from the very beginning. On one machine type, you can't go back (if you forgot to select a railcard discount) and must cancel - which has a delay. If you're struggling to read the screen, or understand the very basic restrictions, you're going to struggle with a machine that can't help you. (Well, it could with better design - but they currently don't.)

When things run slow, it's always tempting (human nature?) to press things to hurry things along, which can also cause problems where it catches up and appears to go to the wrong place, increasing frustration.

The quick ticket machines used on the London Underground are perhaps the perfect solution for those people who have a train to catch in 4 minutes. A simple way to buy that single to X or a Travelcard - while people can get multiple tickets for a family and do other, more complicated, things on the other machines.

Other possible ideas for machines:

You could have a front page menu that offers those quick tickets, while also having a 'wizard' option that asks where you're going, how many people, when (and why can't a machine show actual live running data to let you select a specific train, which does away with any doubt?), do you have a railcard (etc) and then presents the ticket options suitable. If done well, nobody would feel that they've been ripped off or have any nagging feeling in their mind that they perhaps paid too much. That bit of reassurance would probably work wonders for customer satisfaction levels. Also, if the machine had live timetable/running data, it could even print off a itinerary, which is something else that I believe you can get from a ticket window (add that to the list?)

As more and more people do stuff on the Internet or have access to apps on the go, you could have people being able to find the tickets they want via a website/app and then getting a unique reference code that will trigger a machine to issue that ticket. Rather like ordering a ticket online then collecting it by entering your reference number, but giving people the option to separate the enquiry with the actual purchase (great if you aren't sure if/when you're going to travel).

I'm sure that a few people from the industry, people who design user interfaces and ordinary members of the public, could develop a very powerful system that would NOT have to be complicated. Look at Apple OSX or the iPhone OS and see how powerful it is, while being so easy and intuitive that people don't even need a manual.

I can't work out if the companies that developed the current software were incompetent, or were simply given a bad brief in the first place. But TVMs are only good for the very basic things, which this thread is suggesting is only a small part of what they need to do in order to replace a manned ticket office.

Also, while ATOC may be completely incompetent - I guess the industry as a whole would be against such intelligent machines on account of them ultimately helping cut jobs. I'm sure the unions would say the same!

 

[class156]

I think the machines are deliberately programmed to encourage the user to purchase the most expensive ticket, for example a couple of weeks ago I was going between Kilmarnock and Ayr, the TVM had made the route Glasgow ticket seem the clearest option, which I know wasn't the best option so I looked through the options and picked the Not Glasgow ticket which cost £1.50 as opposed to the £3.35 single. The average user would have been fooled into purchasing the more expensive ticket.

 

[323235]

Unfortunatley the only 'Manchester ...' is 'Manchester Airport' which is obviously totally different, Man Vic, Man Pic wernt appearing (at least last time I used it) which after 3 years of being installed there thats a disgrace. I was told a year after they were installed it was a 'known software problem' and would be fixed soon, they said the same thing a year later when I enquired a again, after that I gave up checking regularly, the ticket office insisted that the TVM was out of their responsibility.

This was the case at Stockport when Northern first installed a machine there. Eventually one day I mentioned it to the staff on the the ticket desk whilst buying a ticket and the next day there was a notice up on the machine informing customers of the fault and within a week the problem was fixed.

 

[button_boxer]

Definitely set up to trick the unwary. At Derby if you go to the TVM after 9:00 am the default front page option for a ticket to Sheffield is the Off-Peak Day Return (£8.80). But before 9:00 it isn't the Anytime Day Return (£17 something) but instead the Anytime Return (over £30). If you want the Anytime Day you have to specifically choose "other ticket types"...

 

[Greenback]

I foudn that the old Quickfare NSE machines were a pain to maintain, but they were quick and easy to use for those simple A to B local tickets, or Travelcards. They kept the queues down at the window for people who wanted those tickets they didn't issue, or who didn't have cash to use them.

That's what we need today. Simple machines that assist everyone when used in conjunction with a properly staffed booking office.

Unfortunatley, TOC's, in their desire to eliminate staff and increase profits, have chosen to force PF's and TVM's on to customers, and have deliberately taken decisions that will result in an increase in revenue at the expense of passengers.

It really is time someone at the DfT took notice of this, and did something about it.

 

[Mike395]

This may be a silly idea - but it's one that popped into my head.

(Please be aware - this only works on stations where all trains have a guard/TM)

How about a system similar to the old Permit to Travel system? A notice could be put on the TVM encouraging people to buy the cheapest ticket possible when the ticket office is closed and the traveller doesnt know how to use the machine/the cheapest option isnt available (along with instructions on how to do so). Then the guard would excess the ticket as appropriate during the journey. I know they wouldnt get round everyone on busy services but at least the TOC gets some revenue from everyone.

Alternatively, a 'Permit ticket' could perhaps be displayed on the front screen when the ticket office is closed, costing the equivalent or slightly less than the cheapest ticket. Again it could be excessed as appropriate.

(Even as Im typing this, I can think of a couple of pitfalls, but it's an idea )

 

[Greenback]

It's a far better system as far as I am concerned, but the TOC's won't like it. All they will see is the possibilty that some people will pay less than they should, unless they put in on a lot more staff to actually check the tickets on train and process all the excesses. And of course, they won't get so much money from their penalty fares either.

 

[EM2]

Definitely set up to trick the unwary. At Derby if you go to the TVM after 9:00 am the default front page option for a ticket to Sheffield is the Off-Peak Day Return (£8.80). But before 9:00 it isn't the Anytime Day Return (£17 something) but instead the Anytime Return (over £30). If you want the Anytime Day you have to specifically choose "other ticket types"...

In ye olde days when I used to commute from Brighton to Gatwick, I *always* bought my ticket at about 09.20 from the TVM, it would automatically offer me the cheapest ticket which I *think* it was an Off-Peak Day Return because I used to catch the first train after 9.30.
On occasion though, the TVMs would be out of order, and they would have staff with ticket machines out on the concourse. And *every* time, they would try and sell me a more expensive ticket and I had to argue for the cheaper one.
So it's not always the machine that tries to trick you...

 

[Greenback]

At least you can talk to a human being, try arguing with a TVM...

 

[jon0844]

(Even as Im typing this, I can think of a couple of pitfalls, but it's an idea )

What is the cheapest train ticket you can buy these days? If you made it so a permit to travel was £1 minimum, which only lasts for a certain time before you'd need another one, you'd actually make quite a bit of money overall - compared to people paying just 5p even if they can pay the full fare (hoping never to be made to pay the difference).

At night, if the TOC isn't bothered about revenue collection, they may just accept that a £1 ticket is better than nothing.

 

[Greenback]

The TOC's would argue that at the moment those who pay nothing will get PF'd occasionally, and will still pay nothing and get chinged now and again with a permit machine. But more people will pay £1 than would pay the correct fare. (Or the incorrect, but higher fare they have prorgramed the machines to highlight!)

Of course, I don't agree, but I'm pretty sure that's what they think, and so would be against it!

 

[Ivo]

I might have to conduct my own survey at various stations around the country

Then the results can come on here. Someone from ATOC will inevitably read it, and realise how damning the results were. Any ideas for stations?

 

[Greenback]

They don't accept the national survey! Why would they accept yours?!

 

[Ivo]

No-one said they had to. I would just like to see the results.

(Plus, it would be considered "independent of all parties, including the independent party involved.)

 

[Lampshade]

What is the cheapest train ticket you can buy these days?.

My guess would be the Evening Return tickets in Greater Manchester, to Salford/Mauldeth Road it's only 75p.

At least you can talk to a human being, try arguing with a TVM...

Maybe that's what they want, more money from penalty fares as there's no one else to hold to account.

 

[Greenback]

No-one said they had to. I would just like to see the results.

(Plus, it would be considered "independent of all parties, including the independent party involved.)

Sorry mate, I thought you were serious about ATOC reading the results and giving a toss!

Maybe that's what they want, more money from penalty fares as there's no one else to hold to account.

I think that is the major attraction for the rail companies.

On the whoel they don't really listen to passengers. The on train environments testify to that. They believe customers should just be grateful that they get to their destination, regardless of the amount they pay, the condition they travel in or anything else.

I hope that things might improve if longer fanchises are introduced. At the moment there is little incentive to improve custoemr satisfaction, it's all financial, so that's what they focus on.