BBC News: Rail passengers 'shun confusing ticket machines'

[yorkie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10701953]

Rail firms are being asked to simplify ticket machines after a study said passengers were being "defeated" by the "bewildering jargon" they faced.

Customer watchdog Passenger Focus said some travellers preferred to queue to speak to ticket office staff, despite ticket machines standing empty.

It said this meant waiting times at ticket offices often exceeded the five-minute guideline in peak hours.
The train firms said most people were happy to use ticket machines.


Incomplete information

Passenger Focus chief executive Anthony Smith said ticket machines were particularly daunting for passengers catching a train for the first time, or those "buying a different type of ticket from their normal ones".

"This stress adds unnecessary pressure to buying a ticket," he added.

"However, many passengers who buy a particular ticket often, or use a familiar ticket machine, may have less trouble."
Of the railway stations involved in the study it found that queues at ticket offices were worst in Guildford in Surrey, and Winchester and Basingstoke in Hampshire.

At these stations, a third of queues were longer than the industry standard.

"Ticket machines can present bewildering jargon, a barrage of information and choices, as well as incomplete information about ticket restrictions," added Mr Smith.

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies pointed out that Passenger Focus's own figures showed last month that - from a survey of more than 30,000 rail users - seven out of 10 were satisfied with ticket-buying facilities at stations.

"This suggests that most people use ticket machines with no problem whatsoever," he added.

"They are there to cut queue times and make the process easier and faster for passengers."

He added that Passenger Focus's latest research looked at queuing times at fewer than 1% of railway stations across Britain.
"This gives a selective and unrepresentative picture of how long people have to queue at stations," said the spokesman.
"Train companies are in the business of keeping their customers happy. They invest a huge amount of time and effort in improving the choice that people have at stations when it comes to buying tickets."

Passenger Focus said it was now working with the train companies "to radically simplify what should be the straightforward process of getting a ticket [from a machine]".

"Most important is clear information about when off-peak and super off-peak tickets are valid," added Mr Smith.

And if you believe ATOC's claims, you'll believe anything!

 

[flymo]

From reading the various threads on here that include the use of TVM's I get the impression that you really need to know what you are doing to stand any chance of getting the right ticket, and even then there may be difficulties.

Is it the ticket machines themselves that are difficult to understand or the fact that the ticketing system is now so complicated that it is practically impossible for the novice user to get the most suitable ticket for the journey?

I think that the fares simplification might need simplifying...again

 

[tony_mac]

seven out of 10 were satisfied with ticket-buying facilities at stations.
......
"This suggests that most people use ticket machines with no problem whatsoever,"

I don't even know where to begin! Is this guy a moron, or does he think we are?

 

[yorkie]

I don't even know where to begin! Is this guy a moron, or does he think we are?

I believe that there is a certain arrogance and pomposity about ATOC.

I know I've said this before (sorry!) but in case anyone wasn't aware, ATOC have previously come out with such gems that "there is no economic justification for [Off Peak tickets] because they are being offered to customers who are using their income on a leisure journey rather than going to the theatre or buying CDs.” (At the time the ticket type in question was called Saver, this is now Off Peak) Source: Sunday Times article.

So when you have an organisation that wants it's customers to buy CDs instead of buying its members products, it is hardly surprising that they are now displaying the classic "I'm not listening" attitude.

Last time I looked at a ticket machine at York station, I searched for a ticket to Hartlepool and I only got ridiculously expensive options, no option for GC only or Route Direct. I'll check again on Thursday. Had a regular user followed ATOCs wishes and used the machine they'd have paid over twice the fare, and probably vowed never to travel by rail again as it's so expensive. This would probably be welcomed by ATOC as they could spend their money on CDs instead :roll:

 

[Lampshade]

It's a lot more apparent up North than around London etc, people snub the machines to actually buy the ticket from a human being (me included).

 

[WatcherZero]

I do too, though mainly because after the machines been in for several years I still cant get a ticket from Wigan to the Manchester Grouping from it, none of the grouping stations appear in its destination list.

 

[yorkie]

I do too, though mainly because after the machines been in for several years I still cant get a ticket from Wigan to the Manchester Grouping from it, none of the grouping stations appear in its destination list.

Just an idea (this may not work): try searching for Manchester Ctlz. I know this does the trick in Avantix Traveller...

 

[John @ home]

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies pointed out that Passenger Focus's own figures showed last month that - from a survey of more than 30,000 rail users - seven out of 10 were satisfied with ticket-buying facilities at stations.

"This suggests that most people use ticket machines with no problem whatsoever,"

and that 9,000 rail users in the survey had problems.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is amazing an organisation thinks a 70% satisfaction rating on buying your product is good! They should be looking for the 90% mark.

I have noticed most people fear buying an off-peak ticket in case it is not valid and go for the anytime. Not good on routes the off-peak is valid all day.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I had a look at one of the new EMT TVMs in Nottingham on monday, it is not possible to change the departure station, i.e. Nottingham. Consequently, it is not possible to buy split tickets

 

[nedchester]

Makes you wonder about the validity of charging penalty fares when a passenger can only buy from a ticket machine (when the station is unstaffed).

My local station (Capenhurst) just has a ticket machine and penalty fare 'heavies' are often out and about chinging people up.

I know how to use the machine but a mate of mine (not dim by any stretch of the imagination) was confused when using the machine and I had to direct him through the process!!! How many others are caught out.

Of course the main problem is the ticketing system itself is in serious need of overhaul. If Off-Peak just meant after 0930 then that would be fine.

 

[flymo]

Just out of curiosity I wonder how many of the 70% of those passengers ATOC quoted as being satisfied would still have been satisfied if they were able to reduce the cost of their travel by talking to someone at the ticket window. Not saying all or even most of them could have reduced their travel costs but I'm sure a few of them could.

Incidentally the list of stations included in the queue length survey is here

 

[thefab444]

Consequently, it is not possible to buy split tickets

No, but if you buy tickets online two hours in advance, you may pick them up from any TVM, which in some ways is less hassle than a battle with obstinate ticket staff.

I always use TVMs myself, I can get exactly what I need from them, there is usually a lot less of a queue, and at Ashurst there isn't really much choice!

 

[wibble]

I don't even know where to begin! Is this guy a moron, or does he think we are?

Clearly, there must be some morons about - with some TOCs, more than 50% of their ticket issues are through the TVM. That, to me, would suggest that the TVMs really aren't that difficult to use...

 

[dk1]

Trouble is a lot of people just refuse to learn how to use the machines even when i offer to show them & thus stand for ages in a queue for a simple ticket behind people with complex advance journeys when automatic ones stand unused. You see the same sort of thing in supermarkets when somebody with a few items seems terrified to use the self service option and stand in line behind trolley laden fellow shoppers.

I feel like telling them to give it a go & they might just suprise themselves. No need to fear technology. You have to move with the times or get left behind.

 

[gordonthemoron]

if you want a laugh, you should see Germans trying to use the self scan machines at IKEA, they haven't got a clue

 

[Capybara]

Clearly, there must be some morons about - with some TOCs, more than 50% of their ticket issues are through the TVM. That, to me, would suggest that the TVMs really aren't that difficult to use...

If it's a regular jouney - which a lot of them are - then they are very straightforward once you know what you are doing. That might account for the 50%. My two trips a week to the same place at about the same time are a piece of cake. But if you haven't used the machine before, or want to travel somewhere different, or are not sure of the conditions, or want to buy a ticket for a train that leaves one or two minutes after the start of the off-peak period, etc, etc they can be a nightmare.

 

[mumrar]

There are so many flaws with TVMs versus people, and with the fares system. Most crucially, a TVM can't ask questions. These are often needed with the most unaware/confused customers. Many times at Redditch booking office I've seen people ask 'How much is a ticket to town?'. What information is contained in that question that they can put in to a TVM? It usually transpires they want a day return to Birmingham New Street, but how could we ever get a machine to extract that information?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surveys will tell you exactly what they want you to read, it doesn't matter who compiles them. The people it hurts willl always put out a counter claim which uses the same information to say exactly the opposite.

e.g. "7 out of 10 are happy with the ticket facilities" is the same as "3 in 10 are not happy with the ticket facilities", and that doesn't even tell you want counts as 'ticket facilities' in the first place!

 

[wibble]

I feel like telling them to give it a go & they might just suprise themselves. No need to fear technology. You have to move with the times or get left behind.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there!

I've helped a few people with using TVMs and they were surprised at how straightforward they are to use. Admittedly, the the process of buying a ticket isn't straight forward, but that has more to do with the complexity of ticket validities varying by journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"7 out of 10 are happy with the ticket facilities" is the same as "3 in 10 are not happy with the ticket facilities", and that doesn't even tell you want counts as 'ticket facilities' in the first place!

That's the problem with statistics - you can make them fit to whatever result you want!!

7 out of 10 people surveyed were happy with ticket facilities, but ticket facilities can vary by location - ask people Redbridge (Hants), Leamington Spa and Kings Cross if they're happy with the range of ticket purchasing facilities and you can guarantee they'll give very different responses.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just an idea (this may not work): try searching for Manchester Ctlz. I know this does the trick in Avantix Traveller...

Unfortunatley the only 'Manchester ...' is 'Manchester Airport' which is obviously totally different, Man Vic, Man Pic wernt appearing (at least last time I used it) which after 3 years of being installed there thats a disgrace. I was told a year after they were installed it was a 'known software problem' and would be fixed soon, they said the same thing a year later when I enquired a again, after that I gave up checking regularly, the ticket office insisted that the TVM was out of their responsibility.

 

[mumrar]

The main problems have been mentioned already, and they are polar opposites. On one side people say how complex the fares structure is, and how people not so familiar with technology won't know how to use them. Yet on the other side people are complaining they don't do fare splitting or let you choose a different origin station. How on earth would yoy encompass all of this into a user-friendly with people who have no knowledge and also super useful for those who know fares and ticketing inside out? That's quite impossible.

 

[Templecombe]

The main problem i find is you can't buy split tickets and the tickets you really wanna get you can only get from ther ticket office

 

[Scotty]

Essentially, I use a TVM for buying simple journeys where I don't split tickets - basically if I'm going to Nottingham/Grantham/etc. Other times I'll book online and collect at the TVM a couple of days before travel, if I know in advance I'll be traveling - if I don't, I'll use the ticket office if open...

 

[mumrar]

The main problem i find is you can't buy split tickets and the tickets you really wanna get you can only get from ther ticket office

But how do you expect to fully espouse that on a user friendly fool proof machine?

Step one:
Choose your destination from the quick list or input using the keyboard
Step two:
Do you require single or return?
Step three:
What time will you be returning?
Step four:
Would you like to split the tickets?
Please be aware the services you travel on must call at the split point.
Step five:
Where would you like to split your ticket(s)?
Step six:
Please choose the ticket(s) type you require from the list below
Step seven:
Do you have any railcards?
Step eight:
Please make payment for your ticket.

I'd love to see Mrs Winterburn, aged 70, using this machine with no problems.

 

[OwlMan]

If I am splitting tickets, starting short etc then I try to buy in advance as the ticket office staff at my usual station are useless.
Otherwise , if I have to buy on the day, I travel from another local station where the staff are helpful and competent.

Peter

 

[WatcherZero]

My ticket office are really good, two hatches but often only one in use but the staff are really quick and take your money, issue ticket and give you change in 20 seconds flat, takes longer than that to put the correct coinage in a machine and navigate the displays.

So I guess the Northern staff are more efficent than machines? scary. The neighbouring Virgin office staff are much slower but the journeys there are intercity not commuter.

 

[Ivo]

70% satisfaction is considered a disaster when it comes to the TOCs, so why not their ticket vending facilities?

Incidentally the list of stations included in the queue length survey is here

Let's play a game - count the stations that do not appear on the L&SE map.

• Cardiff Queen Street
• Crewe
• Derby
• Loughborough
• Manchester Oxford Road
• Norwich
• Preston

...oh dear. Just seven out of 29. Hardly a fair representation is it? Especially given that in the South-East most don't really care; they just want a seat - and many will have a season ticket anyway.

 

[Wyvern]

Just to be absolutely impartial, what Passenger Focus are actually saying is on this webpage

 

[jon0844]

I don't even know where to begin! Is this guy a moron, or does he think we are?

Only Steve Jobs can spin something that successfully, and even he's losing his touch.

TVMs are a nightmare even for those who know how to use them, but there are a number of problems (and I'm sure I can think of many more over time);

• Inconsistency of layout, varying from one TOC to another.
• Poor UI design, from overlapping text to other issues that suggest poor user-testing.
• Differing software even on the same TOC, at the same station, due to different machines from different suppliers. Hatfield has three different machine types, with two totally different user interfaces and then a further variations of one type. How does someone that isn't that keen on technology going to learn all of these variations (while getting further stressed as the queue builds up behind).
• Not all tickets being sold at all (no ticket extensions or tickets from another station for buying in advance), so you'd have to go to the window anyway. And, if you've just spent ages on the TVM that won't sell the ticket you want (or you can't find it even if it IS there), you now have to join the queue for the window and lose all that time. Next time you won't touch a TVM.
• Very poor explanation of restrictions (and ticket names, often to allow the text to fit on a line), not helped by some common tickets being relegated to a second or third page if there are many different combinations, or the TOC wants to promote first class tickets. Near London, they could have a single 'Travelcard' option that bring up a further sub-menu for zones instead of lots of different Travelcard options being shown, or a narrowed down selection that means some customers won't find the one they want (and probably just buy a Z1-6).

Now, I'm not against TVMs at all. In fact, I'd be happy to see more. I'd also like to see the industry go for a standardised user interface. Most of these machines (all?) are Windows based, so bar different drivers for the coin/note validators, credit card acceptance etc - you can EASILY produce one standardised, fully user tested, user interface. TOCs could still apply their own 'theme' and branding, but the core layout would be the same always.

Now you've made it a LOT easier for people and introduced some consistency. That's step one.

Step two is to tidy up the options, and while split ticketing may be a little too advanced, we NEED to move towards something where a machine can do everything you could do at a manned ticket office - given that these are effectively replacing them as time goes on.

I'd personally propose a simple front-end that offers the common tickets (with some sub-menus or even questions about travel that might suggest the right ticket(s)) - along with support for multiple languages to aid foreign visitors.

Where you now usually have an option to do an A-Z search, you could have additional menus with more advanced ticketing options. Here you could have ticket extensions, or opt to change the station the ticket will be from (thus allowing split ticketing for those who might know how to do it). By all means display a disclaimer warning you that you must have a valid ticket to travel there in the first place or whatever. Making someone press 'ok' and having this marked (with a code or something) on the printed ticket would be a godsend for RPIs who would now be able to clearly see that anyone presenting that ticket was shown the terms and conditions (or chose to ignore them). Either way, it helps revenue protection immeasurably.

and that 9,000 rail users in the survey had problems.

Yes, I'd like to see that figure extrapolated so it reflects an actual number (rather than percentage) of all people who use the railway in the UK.

On that basis, I wonder what ATOC would say then - given that you'd now have, using THEIR data, evidence that n,nnn,nnn people had problems.