DC Class 455/456/458/465/66 discussion topic.

[Fincra5]

You’d be better sending the 379s to Great Northern and then cascading the 387s south of the river.

Exactly. 379s don't have Shoe Gear fitted but 387s do. Although 458s would be a good fit, if shortened to 4 car, to replace 313s on the coast. And maybe some 377 Coastal Workings (not london bound), which would allow 377s towards london to reduce the use of 455s... or for lengthening services. 458s still have life in them.

 

[pompeyfan]

I like the ideas being floated around for the 458s, although personally I’d keep them as 5 cars but ensure that ASDO works (presuming there’s physically enough space for them).

that said, I cant help but think this is a solution looking for a problem. The GTR franchise physically own the units(*). They’re semi reliable, all the crew that need to know them, know them and they meet the relevant rules regarding accessibility and disabled passengers.

*turns out they actually don’t and I was typing incorrect information. they’re leased by Beacon rail according to a post below

 

[rdlover777]

The GTR franchise physically own the units.

How is that possible? I thought all rolling stock was owned by ROSCOs

 

[pompeyfan]

How is that possible? I thought all rolling stock was owned by ROSCOs

some rolling stock that is life expired such as 483s and 313s are purchased by the franchise holder for a very small price (usually £1), but then take all liability for maintenance, overhaul and refurbishment.

 

[rdlover777]

some rolling stock that is life expired such as 483s and 313s are purchased by the franchise holder for a very small price (usually £1), but then take all liability for maintenance, overhaul and refurbishment.

Huh, didn't know that! Today i learnt...

Also is that price per unit? Or for the entire fleet?

 

[pompeyfan]

Huh, didn't know that! Today i learnt...

Also is that price per unit? Or for the entire fleet?

I’m not entirely sure and I’m struggling to find information to back up my claim.
Can someone someone please help me, I’m worried I might be going senile

 

[43096]

I’m not entirely sure and I’m struggling to find information to back up my claim.
Can someone someone please help me, I’m worried I might be going senile

The Southern 313s show as being owned by Beacon Rail. You are correct that the Island Line 483 units aare franchise owned. Two other examples: the ScotRail 314s were franchise owned, too, and GWR own five HST power cars.

 

[Journeyman]

Huh, didn't know that! Today i learnt...

Also is that price per unit? Or for the entire fleet?

In the case of the 483s, it was the entire fleet.

Bit of a ripoff, if you ask me!

 

[pompeyfan]

The Southern 313s show as being owned by Beacon Rail. You are correct that the Island Line 483 units aare franchise owned. Two other examples: the ScotRail 314s were franchise owned, too, and GWR own five HST power cars.

Ah thank you for clarifying, I’m a bit miffed about that. I wonder what led me to incorrectly think they were a franchise asset.

 

[Journeyman]

How is that possible? I thought all rolling stock was owned by ROSCOs

It didn't take long for that to change. All the stuff BR operated got divided up into the three original ROSCOs and they maintain a dominant position, but there's been several new entrants to the market who have done things differently, plus assorted deals directly with manufacturers, like the Agility Trains setup for the IEPs/Azumas.

If you're buying a new fleet now, the way you do it depends on how you're able to raise the finance, and there's almost as many ways of doing it as there are types of train.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Probably a statistical anomaly, but I notice that all of the ex 460 units are running paired together and not with any of the ex 458/0 units.

458531+458533
458532+458535
458534+458536

 

[Journeyman]

It didn't take long for that to change. All the stuff BR operated got divided up into the three original ROSCOs and they maintain a dominant position, but there's been several new entrants to the market who have done things differently, plus assorted deals directly with manufacturers, like the Agility Trains setup for the IEPs/Azumas.

If you're buying a new fleet now, the way you do it depends on how you're able to raise the finance, and there's almost as many ways of doing it as there are types of train.

Yeah, there's nothing anywhere that says you have to use a ROSCO to acquire trains - the original ones were simply set up to carve up BR's fleet. After that, TOCs were free to finance and acquire new stock however they wanted, although TOCs owning stock outright remains rare, as there's no guarantee of franchises remaining in your hands long enough.

 

[Class465pacer]

Could 458s replace Southerns 455s? It would only be a net loss of 4 coaches in total.

 

[4REP]

Could 458s replace Southerns 455s? It would only be a net loss of 4 coaches in total.

Basically 1 unit. As I created this forum I think i created a post near enough at the beginning about cascades and could be possible. Post 26/27 I just checked

 

[RichJF]

Basically 1 unit. As I created this forum I think i created a post near enough at the beginning about cascades and could be possible. Post 26/27 I just checked

Wouldn't it make more sense (in my mind) for the SWR 455s to come over to Southern? They have AC traction & a much better internal refit. I would've thought the SWR 455s would last longer than the SN 455s?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In theory 46 x 455s can be replaced entirely by the 458s if diagrams were possibly tweaked and capacity gained by having 5 coaches instead of 4 or the 10 377 can be converted to metro or even move the 313 s to metro in 9 x 6 car formation with 1 spare instead of 10 cascaded 377s (from being cascaded by 379s)which can be used to expand capacity.

313's on the metro!??

It just needs one to break down or catch fire and scupper everything else...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Wouldn't it make more sense (in my mind) for the SWR 455s to come over to Southern? They have AC traction & a much better internal refit. I would've thought the SWR 455s would last longer than the SN 455s?

On paper it would, however:
Drivers would need to retrain to drive the AC motored units.
The SWR units aren't set up for DOO AFAIK so would need investment to make them suitable for Southern.

 

[Snow1964]

On paper it would, however:
Drivers would need to retrain to drive the AC motored units.
The SWR units aren't set up for DOO AFAIK so would need investment to make them suitable for Southern.

I think it more likely that the SWR 455s will replace the Southern 313s on the coast, (without the class 508 trailers). In 3car form having been re-motored should be good for few years.

My only caveat is the 313s aluminium bodies are probably better at resisting corrosion from salty spay in all those coastal inlets

Actually I could see the 375, 377 used on services into London, and older units used on local services (that don’t go anywhere near London) thus freeing up some 377s. Would not be surprised to see the 387s leave Sussex (especially if some extensions to GWR electrification go ahead)

 

[A0]

I think it more likely that the SWR 455s will replace the Southern 313s on the coast, (without the class 508 trailers). In 3car form having been re-motored should be good for few years.

My only caveat is the 313s aluminium bodies are probably better at resisting corrosion from salty spay in all those coastal inlets

Actually I could see the 375, 377 used on services into London, and older units used on local services (that don’t go anywhere near London) thus freeing up some 377s. Would not be surprised to see the 387s leave Sussex (especially if some extensions to GWR electrification go ahead)

Surely when there's much younger, post BR era stock available, keeping the 455s which are all nearing their 40th birthday seems a tad unlikely ?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

This is a terrible idea not really based on anything but there are 30 class 379's and 36 class 458's which makes 66 units in total. You could use all 66 of these to replace the 46 455's and 19 class 313's which adds up to 65 units in total, giving you a like for like replacement, plus 1 unit spare.

 

[Journeyman]

This is a terrible idea not really based on anything but there are 30 class 379's and 36 class 458's which makes 66 units in total. You could use all 66 of these to replace the 46 455's and 19 class 313's which adds up to 65 units in total, giving you a like for like replacement, plus 1 unit spare.

I can't see anyone particularly wanting the 458s. They've had a terrible reputation, and there's only one other operator of that family of rolling stock. They're getting on a bit, being one of the oldest post-privatisation fleets, and I honestly can't see them having much of a future. The 379s are an interesting question. Adding third rail capability may or may not be easy, but also there was potential interest in them from Gautrain in South Africa, who want to expand their fleet of UK-spec Electrostar units.

 

[Roger B]

I can't see anyone particularly wanting the 458s. They've had a terrible reputation, and there's only one other operator of that family of rolling stock. They're getting on a bit, being one of the oldest post-privatisation fleets, and I honestly can't see them having much of a future. The 379s are an interesting question. Adding third rail capability may or may not be easy, but also there was potential interest in them from Gautrain in South Africa, who want to expand their fleet of UK-spec Electrostar units.

Surely further electrification providing ongoing work for these units in the UK, enabling diesel units to be retired / used elsewhere in the world, is a much better option than sending currently surplus electric units abroad?

 

[Journeyman]

Surely further electrification providing ongoing work for these units in the UK, enabling diesel units to be retired / used elsewhere in the world, is a much better option than sending currently surplus electric units abroad?

But so far no-one seems to want them. If the South Africans fork out the cash, that's where they'll go.

 

[43096]

I can't see anyone particularly wanting the 458s. They've had a terrible reputation, and there's only one other operator of that family of rolling stock.

It's a reputation, given by people who don't have anything to do with them.

The reality is somewhat different, as SWT and Porterbrook sorted out the initial problems to the extent that they were the most reliable trains in the country. Ask the engineers and they'll tell you the Onix traction kit is better than the Siemens equivalent and the drivers like the braking performance. From this daily user of them, they're the best trains we've ever had on the Waterloo-Reading line.